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    On The Twins' Cheapness And Showing Your Work


    William Parker

    I want to talk about the Twins and payroll, and how we talk about the Twins’ payroll.

    It’s been about a month since Jack Moore wrote the excellent and scathing The Minnesota Small-Market Con over at Baseball Prospectus Milwaukee. The points it makes are numerous and wide-ranging -- the most important, I think, is “if the billionaire Pohlads had been willing to take a short-term loss, they could have made their way out of the Metrodome years earlier without taking the public for such a ride" -- but being published as it was in the latter part of an offseason in which fans have watched the team take very few substantial visible steps toward getting better, most seemed to take it as a chance to complain about the team's unwillingness in recent years to spend on free agents.

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    And I get it. Having taken the public for said ride and secured a stadium that is maybe the most appealing in baseball, the Twins (per Cot’s Contracts) ended their first two seasons in Target Field with top-ten payrolls, but then fell back to 13th in 2012, and haven’t been out of the 20s since. While attendance predictably declined from 2011 to 2015, it seems a safe bet that they could generally have spent more money than they did in those years and still turned a nice profit.

    The problem I’ve always had, though, is that this (at the most) is generally where the fan’s analysis stops. They could have spent more money, but they didn’t, and they should have. The obvious next questions that gets left on the table, though, are “on what?” and “why?”: what could that money have gotten them, and what makes it a good idea? The 2011 Twins had a $115 million payroll and were coming off a 94-win, first-place year, but with injuries to almost literally everyone -- only Danny Valencia and Michael Cuddyer would play as many as 120 games for the Twins in 2011 -- they lost 99, finishing a whopping 28 games out of a wildcard spot, and it was pretty clear their window had slammed shut. They lost 96 in both 2012 and 2013 (22 and 26 games out of the playoffs, respectively), and 92 (18 out) in 2014. Their season-ending payroll declined, meanwhile, from 9th in 2011, to 13th, to 24th.

    But, again, what could and should they have spent more money on, and what could we have expected it to bring them? In a league in which the very best player might be worth about nine wins and four is a typical All-Star, the Twins would’ve had to add the equivalent of four or five All-Stars, two Mike Trouts, or some combination thereof (assuming each of them takes the place of true replacement-level players, to boot) in order to have had any chance at a postseason berth in any of those years. That’s not the kind of thing that’s ever happened via free agency--teams have tried, typically with disastrous consequences (check out the turn-of-the-century Devil Rays sometime).

    But what if the postseason isn’t the goal? What about just putting a marginally more entertaining product on the field? I question whether that’s a thing, personally--it’s the competing that draws the crowds, the Timberwolves are as entertaining as a bad basketball team can get right now and not drawing substantially more than their terribly depressing squads of the last couple years did--but I get that, too. It’s not as though a team puts those savings in an interest-bearing account and adds them to the pot for next year. They would, in a perfect world, but they don’t; those savings go to the owners, and the next year’s budget is its own thing. So to the extent you’re concerned only about this season, yes, you as a fan should want the team to spend as much money as they can possibly get away with, because that money’s gone for your purposes after the season either way.

    The problem with that is that the one-year deal for a good (or even just “entertaining”) player exists in baseball only when that player comes with huge risks. Most free agents worth signing as anything more than filler in this game demand commitments of three years, or four or five or more. Most free agents are also in their 30s, which means almost without exception that they’re likely to get worse over those three to five years, not better. What that means is that most of the free agents the Twins could’ve signed to make them marginally better or more fun in 2013 or 2014 would still be getting paid as Twins in 2016, and would be less good or fun now than they were then (but probably making at least as much money). When you don’t expect to win, you probably shouldn’t (and can’t, to field a team that avoids challenging the ‘62 Mets) stop spending entirely. But your focus in spending, way ahead of getting better for the now, has to be to avoid hamstringing the team in future seasons, when -- if your prospects pan out and you’re not too bogged down by aging players’ contracts -- you might be positioned to spend to fill more immediate needs and make a run at it.

    In that light, I tended to think the Twins’ spending from 2012 through 2014 was just about perfect--a weird thing for me to say, as I’ve never been one to go easy on the front office (Tony Batista and Ruben Sierra? Seriously?). In 2012, there was just a long, black-dark road ahead, and nothing to do but fill a couple of the gaps to try to be interesting and wait it out. And that’s exactly what they did, bringing in Josh Willingham (who worked) and Ryan Doumit (who didn’t) to fill in for the departing Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel, and otherwise just stayed put and take their lumps. Heading into 2014, with Byron Buxton, Miguel Sano and others now on their way, it made sense to take a look at some relatively low-risk, 30-or-younger free agents who could reasonably be expected to be contributing at about the same level a couple years down the line, and they did that, bringing in Phil Hughes (who I’d argue worked) and Ricky Nolasco (who thus far clearly hasn’t), along with more stopgaps like Mike Pelfrey and Kurt Suzuki. For whatever else the Twins have done right or wrong, this is exactly how a non-contending team should spend its money. Should they have spent more of it? Perhaps--but it’s on the one arguing they should to identify where they should’ve spent it and why. Whining that they’re cheap and run by billionaires just doesn’t cut it; they’re losing ninety-plus either way. Show your work.

    I’ve left out 2015 so far, of course, and that’s a tough one because we know how it ends: the Twins win 83 games, surprising everyone, and miss the wildcard play-in game by just three wins. They entered the last week with a real shot, and as it turns out, even one modest upgrade in the offseason could have gotten them there. That’s cheating, though: the Twins didn’t know how it would end, and I really think they were looking at 2016 or 2017 as their next legitimate chance, and so they stayed the course, bringing in 32-year-old Ervin Santana to add to their stable of average starters who seem likely to still be about average by the next time they thought they’d be competitive. Were there moves that not only could have put them over the top as things turned out, but that they should have made in December or January 2014-15, knowing and believing what they reasonably did then? Maybe! But I’d like to know what those specifically were. (Note also that a first half from Santana might itself ultimately have put them in the playoffs.)

    So that gets us to today. I’ve been as frustrated as anyone with the lack of activity: Byung-Ho Park is certainly interesting, but hardly fills a glaring need, and there’s not much else that’s even worth mentioning. It feels much like a team with two third basemen and three or four 1B/DH types, which seems to suggest moves to be made, and I would’ve loved to see them land, say, Darren O’Day, an elite reliever who signed a four-year deal to stay with the Orioles similar to the ones the Twins gave Santana and Nolasco. But: O’Day is 32 years old, and at his very best -- at any modern reliever’s best -- is worth about three wins. The Twins had a lot of luck last year, and while I’m looking forward to seeing what they can do in 2016, there’s good reason to believe they’re not quite there yet, with or without the upgraded bullpen. If, as Baseball Prospectus’ PECOTA expects, they go 79-83 and miss the playoffs by seven games, O’Day probably wouldn’t have made a difference, and neither would most anyone else. And then what about in 2018, when Buxton and Sano are MVP candidates, but O’Day is 35 and ineffective, while his $9 million salary helps prevent you from signing that year’s Darren O’Day, who could be the difference between an LDS loss and a world championship?

    I have no answers. I thought they should have done more this offseason, and I sure hope that they do well enough that there’s a worry it might come back to bite them. But too often, we collectively seem to want the team to spend more money without considering a.) the limits of what that spending can actually do, or b.) the risks down the road of imprudently committing money now. Fans can complain that the team is cheap all they want -- and why not, it’s just baseball, it’s all in fun, you do you -- but without an idea of how they should spend that extra money, why they should and what might happen if it goes bad, all it is is whining for whining’s sake. Seems to me it’s more fun, more instructive, and, at least in this case, harder to argue with the plan, if you show your work.

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    My only point to make was that there was a pitcher to get that year that had more upside.  The problem the Twins have isn't necessarily the "who" but the "why".  

     

    They are content to go for virtually no upside as long as they think the floor is high enough, but in 2012 that was a really bad way of approaching it.  

    More upside, less than a 25% chance of working except in hindsight. You end up with a rotation dependent on PJ Walters. Hughes signing later was for upside. As was somewhat Ervin. Nolasco was at best a hope for a below 4 ERA with starts going through the 6th (Your floor signing,)

    Edited by old nurse

     

    More upside, less than a 25% chance of working except in hindsight

     

    But Pelfrey and Correia had a 0% chance of working out......that's the point. If you take the guy with no upside, you get "meh" or worse nearly every time*. If you take the guy with upside, you have a chance at something.

     

    *when talking about 1 year filler types....

     

    More upside, less than a 25% chance of working except in hindsight. You end up with a rotation dependent on PJ Walters. Hughes signing later was for upside.

     

    Didn't we anyway?

     

    And yes, Hughes was a much better upside move.  I completely agree.  It was one of the best FA signings the Twins could have done that year and I applauded them for it.

     

    But Correia?  That signing remains indefensible because it had no upside.

     

    Success? If that is the tried and true method, maybe it is time to change things up.  Seeing as they have not won a playoff game in 11 years, and have won 1 playoff series in 25 years.  

    Also seeing as the last time they actually experienced success, they did so with FA stars on the team.

     

    Also seeing as the last time they actually experienced success, they did so with FA stars on the team.

     

    Yup, something people seem to forget all the time. Where is that team without Jack Morris (one of the biggest FA contract ever, at the time?)?

     

    Yup, something people seem to forget all the time. Where is that team without Jack Morris (one of the biggest FA contract ever, at the time?)?

    shhh. You're bringing facts and logic into this.... It doesn't fit into the narrative that the Twins are home grown kids and signing FA's hardly ever work out! 

     

    But Pelfrey and Correia had a 0% chance of working out......that's the point. If you take the guy with no upside, you get "meh" or worse nearly every time*. If you take the guy with upside, you have a chance at something.

     

    *when talking about 1 year filler types....

     

    I don't agree that Pelfrey had 0% chance. I thought it was an acceptable risk to take at the time and he actually had an OK season, actually pretty close to what Feldman did.

     

    They should have went with another - and at the time they said they actually offered more money for Joe Saunders.

     

    My only point to make was that there was a pitcher to get that year that had more upside.  The problem the Twins have isn't necessarily the "who" but the "why".  

     

    They are content to go for virtually no upside as long as they think the floor is high enough, but in 2012 that was a really bad way of approaching it.  

     

    And I agree. I accept one of Correia, but they should have signed another to go with Pelfrey (who in hindsight wasn't a terrible signing that year, the problem was the extension).

    I tend to agree with you. I am not a huge free agent guy, and even if I was, it would never work with this FO. Why? Because it's not there operating platform. And to go out willy nilly and buy a guy here and there is not going to work. It's an all the time process. This FO prefers to develop talent, and I agree. My differences with them is their apparent acceptance of mediocre veterans over high upsid youth. It often takes and injury to get rid of a middling vet, and heaven forbid that they would ever trade one when his value is at its peak! I think they know talent, but seem to relish the security and comfort a veteran provides, vs the potential for upside, and yes downside a younger player provides. This will play out in Nolasco v Duffey this spring, and in the BP!

     

    But Pelfrey and Correia had a 0% chance of working out......that's the point. If you take the guy with no upside, you get "meh" or worse nearly every time*. If you take the guy with upside, you have a chance at something.

     

    *when talking about 1 year filler types....

    Pelfrey has enough upside that the Tigers gave him 16 million. His upside was that of a number 3 starter.

     

    While I hate May in the bullpen, Berrios has a better chance of becoming an ace.

     

    Hell, I'd argue that Meyer has a better chance of becoming an ace.

     

    Trevor May has almost zero chance of becoming an ace. His ceiling is a very good #2 if everything breaks right. That's an extremely valuable pitcher - and one that should be in the rotation - but it's not an ace by any definition other than "the guy who starts on Opening Day". A Brad Radke-style "ace", that is.

     

    With a K/9 over 9?  I think you're underselling May a bit.  I'd put money on May being a better starter than Meyer at this point.  Radke was a good pitcher and in a different era, but you really undersell May on this one.

    With a K/9 over 9? I think you're underselling May a bit. I'd put money on May being a better starter than Meyer at this point. Radke was a good pitcher and in a different era, but you really undersell May on this one.

    I'm not underselling May. I think he's a good pitcher with good upside but he simply does not have the stuff to be a real ace.

     

    It's likely May will have a better career than Meyer but Meyer has a better chance to become an ace. He has the nasty stuff to do it, he just hasn't put it together (and probably won't). May doesn't. He'd need a few more MPH on his fastball, a better breaking ball, etc. That's not a knock on May, a pitcher can be very good and very valuable without being an ace.

     

    With a K/9 over 9?  I think you're underselling May a bit.  I'd put money on May being a better starter than Meyer at this point.  Radke was a good pitcher and in a different era, but you really undersell May on this one.

    What's your argument? Above average pitcher who gives you 200+ innings a year is a good upside  for May. I've never heard anyone say he has the stuff to be any better than that. I'll be doing cartwheels if he makes it that far.

    Couple of notes here.

    Players have to want to take your money to join the Twins,  this was a hard sell when they were losing 90+ games a year. 

    Twins TV contract is not good.  Twins spending will be constrained until a new TV(and much better TV) contract is signed. 

    Twins have the minor league talent that to keep all of the best of them could lead to close to $200 million a year.  (In the 2020's).  Plans have to be made for that time.  Most of the Twins best players will still be in their 20's when their 6 years are up(if the new CBA does not cut that to 4-5 years).  Money will need to be spent wisely(hindsight is 20/20)

    Lireano was offered more money to return here than Pittsburg, he did not want to come back(and I do not blame him).

    Some players will want to stay, some will not.  Clubs that are winning have an easier time attracting top flight talent.  Twins just need to get there.

    When Nolasco was signed it was said, he was the first to take the Twins offer, do not forget this.

     

    Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? We won't be good, so let's not try to be good, see, we couldn't be good!.........

     

    There has never been a time I've come here, when people didn't say "there are all these reasons not to spend money, and the Twins are right not to, and they aren't cheap, even though we just paid millions to increase their revenue for them through taxes"......when do we read "the Twins are contenders, and they should be spending money on legit, big time, players to fill holes"? 

     

     

     I've been a good pal of yours throughout the lean times, Mike. Even though a lot of people never fault the elected officials and instead place all the blame on the Pohlads for the stadium deal and for their own resulting personal tax burden, I have attempted to frame any discussion I personally engage in pertaining to "payroll" within a hypothetical context that one would hope could take that supercharged aspect out of the discussion. 

     

    I'll offer the same hypothetical I have on other occasions in the past. Indulge me, and set the annual payroll number at $125M. Now, start in the off-season between 2010 and 2011 and tell me what you would have done in free agency each year to produce a division winner. Be honest about it. If you would have signed Pujols or Cliff Lee or Hamilton, admit it.

     

    So far, there has never been a time around here when people didn't say spend Pohlad's money, they're cheap, we deserve it...

     

    And yet, I can honestly say I cannot recall a halfway pragmatic proposal, in any past year, that I believe would have produced a divisional champion in that year, even including 2015. People often portray any resistance to spend by the Pohlads in brutally unfair ways. In reality, the relationship between spending and wins is complex, and most of us on TD are pretty good about not going off the rails one way or the other, because we recognize this. 

     

    I think the goalposts have been in the same place all the time, for almost all of those of us who have endorsed the strategy that's finally about to pay off (hopefully). No one connected with the Twins can be accused of moving the goalpost either, unless people want to disingenuously label past "we'll be competitive" talk as a promise of a division title or something.

     

    The prevailing argument that you've been hearing in past years about why limiting spending made sense given the long-term strategy to build a sustainable level of excellence primarily via the farm system could not have been articulated much more clearly and consistently by a number of intelligent, thoughtful members of TD. Likewise, there have been a number of very well-articulated arguments by equally thoughtful and intelligent people about why spending a lot more would have been warranted. I personally have some of these positions memorized. ;) In fact, my own view has changed as a result of some of those spending arguments. However, I always come back to the need for a governor or two to be in place in order for the discussion to be something other than a sloppy mess, and those two governors are avoiding the whole "we deserve more" stuff, and a hypothetical agreement about reasonable spending ($125M?), what it buys you and what it saddles you with.

     

    So there you go. $125M. YOU tell US if the Twins are contenders in 2016.

     

    Whining that they’re cheap and run by billionaires just doesn’t cut it; they’re losing ninety-plus either way. Show your work.
     

    Great article but that's quite an assumption. I'm not sure the Twins were destined to lose 90+ for all those seasons.  

     

    Lots of people in the 2009-2012 time period were already discussing when to move Mauer out from catcher. Maybe the Twins part ways with Gardy a lot sooner. Maybe they invest in analytics earlier. But none of this really relates to spending on players, so I will bow back out. :)  

     

     

    Yeah.  From 2012-2014, the Twins seemed to be committed to getting low-variability immediate performance results from their FA investments.  Sometimes that is defensible to add some stability or fill out a roster, but it doesn't seem wise as an exclusive FA strategy, especially during rebuilding years.

     

    This might be the best description I've seen of the 2012-14 FA strategy.

    My own theory about some of the meh choices is that they were fixated on how terribly depleted the pipeline had gotten. This explains the choice of say, Correia over the choice of say, Brett Anderson or that guy I can't help Brock remember.

    Bird,

     

    I remember during the SNL debates in 2000 when Al Gore interrupted the moderator and said "I am going to answer that question as if it were asked to me". In this case I will be Al Gore.

     

    The reality is you can never gaurantee a division title. One of the predictors last year had KC at 72 wins. But I think you could put a much better team on the field.

     

    We are at $108m now. I would have not tendered Milone, Fein, and I would have traded Plouffe. That brings me to $95m.

     

    Player moves - May is in the rotation. Sano is at 3b. The Plouffe trade brings me a dominant reliever, replacing May. If nolasco isn't tearing it up in ST he does not make the team. If he does he is in the pen. If he isn't lighting the world on fire by May 1, he is DFA'd.

     

    I am signing mark Lowe and Steve Cishek (add $10m). And denard Span is coming home (10m).

     

    Not sure about the other $10m. I suppose you could find about the best pure bat out there not named Cespedes. I think we could have Arcia hit lefties and sign a platoon DH that can hit lefties. That should not cost much.

     

    I think relative to the team we field this year, our pen and OF defense is much better. The rotation is the same. And the DH we could sign will outhit Park.

    No fair, tobi. You have to start in 2010. Hell, maybe you screwed up and your payroll is at $122M with four contract obligations for guys not playing that run out through 2018.

     

    But, despite how easy it is to poke massive holes in your plan for 2016, I like it, especially the Lowe signing for a premium over what he got to convince him to come here. And the DH does not outhit Park. ;)

    The Hennepun County taxpayers (including myself) built the Twins a money-making machine. I think they're obligated to give us better than a Metrodome-quality product.

     

    All that said, the first thing I would change would be to trade Cuddyer, Kubel, and Nathan at the 2011 deadline. The team wasn't going anywhere and that could have helped expedite the rebuild.

     

    The Twins' loyalty to veterans has at times undermined their long-term strategy. I would cite the Hughes extension as another example.

     

    I believe that to be successful building from within, you need to hurt feelings at times. Make Hughes prove himself again before rewarding him. Tell Joe Nathan that you don't care if he doesn't want to be traded. Take the PR hit of trading Cuddyer. It's all in the interest of putting together a better baseball team.

    The biggest issue with this front office's free agent "strategy" is the middle tier market, or washed up veterans seem to be the only place they shop.  There is absolutely no value in signing a Santana, Nolasco, Pelfrey, Correia, etc.  

     

    Santana and Nolasco were #4 starters, paid to be #2/3 starters.  At best, they eat innings on a bad team. At worst, their contracts are unmovable, and they take rotation spots from younger, more deserving guys. 

     

    You either take a flyer on diamonds in the rough like Hughes (young, upside), or overpay for stars.  They've obviously never done the latter, and other than Hughes (which they screwed up 1 winter later) I can't think of an example where they took a shot on someone looking to rebuild their value.  

    Edited by alarp33

     

    The Hennepun County taxpayers (including myself) built the Twins a money-making machine. I think they're obligated to give us better than a Metrodome-quality product.

    All that said, the first thing I would change would be to trade Cuddyer, Kubel, and Nathan at the 2011 deadline. The team wasn't going anywhere and that could have helped expedite the rebuild.

    The Twins' loyalty to veterans has at times undermined their long-term strategy. I would cite the Hughes extension as another example.

    I believe that to be successful building from within, you need to hurt feelings at times. Make Hughes prove himself again before rewarding him. Tell Joe Nathan that you don't care if he doesn't want to be traded. Take the PR hit of trading Cuddyer. It's all in the interest of putting together a better baseball team.

     

    I don't think the Twins are purposefully bad, if for no other reason than it has cost them a boatload of money. I"m sure they would love to put a better team out there.

     

    And your 2011 trade deadline moves hypothetical is flawed. They were only 6 games back on July 31 and had been playing pretty good ball for 2 months - based on the history of the team it would have been especially aggressive to blow it up at that point.

     

    I don't think the Twins are purposefully bad, if for no other reason than it has cost them a boatload of money. I"m sure they would love to put a better team out there.

     

    And your 2011 trade deadline moves hypothetical is flawed. They were only 6 games back on July 31 and had been playing pretty good ball for 2 months - based on the history of the team it would have been especially aggressive to blow it up at that point.

     

    6 games is a lot, and this team has traded players when they were in closer contention before.

     

    I don't know if I would have done those or not......but I would have been a lot more aggressive in trading off veterans for sure. Perkins, for example.....

    Edited by Mike Sixel

     

    All that said, the first thing I would change would be to trade Cuddyer, Kubel, and Nathan at the 2011 deadline. The team wasn't going anywhere and that could have helped expedite the rebuild.

    We got Berrios, Chargois, and Bard as compensation draft picks in 2012 for letting Cuddyer and Kubel depart as free agents.  No shame in that.

     

    Also, Nathan was having a pretty dismal season coming back from injury in 2011 -- I don't think there was much of a market for him at the July 31st deadline.




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