The dreaded return of Butera

[James]

Gardy is already making a public case from bringing back a third catcher. The article is basically pleading the case for bringing Butera back to the 25-man roster.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120419&content_id=29130424&notebook_id=29130428&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min&partnerId=rss_min

 

Full disclosure: Gardy never said Butera's name, he just said "the third catcher situation."

[mikeee]

Noooooooooooo!

[TwinsFanLV]

Drew Butera need not to be "dreaded". Carrying three catchers makes sense, IF the three are used correctly. Should Butera be leading off and asked to steal 40 bases? No. Can Butera serve as a defensive replacement for Doumit late in a one run game? Yes. Can Butera spell Mauer in a lopsided contest? Yes. Should Butera be limited to 3-5 ABs/week? Yes. Is this a reasonable way to keep both Mauer and Doumit's bats in the lineup? Yes! Is there any useful purpose to carrying 13 pitchers? NO NO NO! (or 12, or 11).

 

Any criticism of the roster should be directed at Gardenhire and Ryan. Please give Butera a break!

[Thrylos]

Interesting quote by Gardenhire in that article:

 

"What that will be, I don't know. I'm still debating on the third catcher situation."

Unless he is debating with himself, which is not out of the realm of possibility, there seem to be saner voices in the organization...

[James]

Drew Butera need not to be "dreaded". Carrying three catchers makes sense, IF the three are used correctly. Should Butera be leading off and asked to steal 40 bases? No. Can Butera serve as a defensive replacement for Doumit late in a one run game? Yes. Can Butera spell Mauer in a lopsided contest? Yes. Should Butera be limited to 3-5 ABs/week? Yes. Is this a reasonable way to keep both Mauer and Doumit's bats in the lineup? Yes! Is there any useful purpose to carrying 13 pitchers? NO NO NO! (or 12, or 11).

 

Any criticism of the roster should be directed at Gardenhire and Ryan. Please give Butera a break!

You are correct that he should never start and the criticism should be directed at Gardy and Ryan. But, if you are going to carry a third catcher, find one that has a better line than .178/.220/.261.

[Seth Stohs]

Well said, TwinsFanLV!

[sotafan]

There is not one catcher in the minors that should be called up and but on the bench(and ever start). NOT ONE!!!!!! Get over yourself Gardy. NOOO you DO NOT need a 3rd catcher. Thank God Ryan as a brain!!

[Rosterman]

The couple of times that a pitcher MAY need to bat - let's have Luke Hughes or someo

ne available to PH then.......naw! The backup is Duomit. Yes, we may want him to field a bit better...but you can't have everything, and with Butera/Rivera/Towles you have nothing.

[twinsnorth49]

Drew Butera need not to be "dreaded". Carrying three catchers makes sense, IF the three are used correctly. Should Butera be leading off and asked to steal 40 bases? No. Can Butera serve as a defensive replacement for Doumit late in a one run game? Yes. Can Butera spell Mauer in a lopsided contest? Yes. Should Butera be limited to 3-5 ABs/week? Yes. Is this a reasonable way to keep both Mauer and Doumit's bats in the lineup? Yes! Is there any useful purpose to carrying 13 pitchers? NO NO NO! (or 12, or 11).

 

Any criticism of the roster should be directed at Gardenhire and Ryan. Please give Butera a break!

Give Butera a break? Why? The guy had the worst statistical batting season of any position player since the '50's!! Stevie Wonder could have got on base more than him. How does that warrant a break?

 

The definition of "Dreaded" in Webster's is "Drew Butera". I agree with your points on having a 3rd catcher, just not who.

 

Yes, there is a useful purpose to having 12-13 pitchers, we need them all to get through 9 innings.

[Todd G]

Drew Butera is a wasted bench spot. This team does not have 2 or 3 at bats a week they can afford to throw away.

[Guest USAFChief]

13 pitchers will resolve itself. It was a temporary solution to the uncertainty surrounding Blackburn and Perkins. A third catcher is probably unnecessary though, particularly when one can make a case that the crappy starting pitching means a 7 man bullpen is defensible.

[Ultima Ratio]

With Doumit's ABs limited due to the RF musical chair addition of Clete, why add any player that takes away ABs at catcher? OR, will this third Catcher only sit on the bench in case of emergency, never getting in except as a late inning replacement for Doumit at C? Until there is a plan for Doumit getting regular ABs, I don't see how bringing another C up makes any sense. It only makes sense if they intend to put Doumit in RF regularly.

[gmarais66]

A few minutes ago, on 1500, Gardy was asked about the third catcher and the whole situation sounded up in the air... Reusse mentioned that Rivera worked well with Liriano last year... Gardy mention Towles as somone to bring up if you want a third catcher who can hit... He also said Towles can play some third or OF, giving him more options...

[Thrylos]

I don't see how bringing another C up makes any sense. It only makes sense if they intend to put Doumit in RF regularly.

It does not make sense even if they put Doumit in RF regularly... Then Mauer will be the Catcher and if something happens to him, Doumit can come in and Catch at that point. Gardy's unsubstantiated fear is that he will lose the DH if one of the 2 Cs is DHing and the other gets hurt. Nuts.

[Thrylos]

He also said Towles can play some third or OF, giving him more options...

interesting... I guess 4 players who can play third (Valencia, Burroughs, Carroll, Plouffe) and a whole bunch of people who can play the OF do not give him enough options now...

[Ultima Ratio]

It does not make sense even if they put Doumit in RF regularly... Then Mauer will be the Catcher and if something happens to him, Doumit can come in and Catch at that point. Gardy's unsubstantiated fear is that he will lose the DH if one of the 2 Cs is DHing and the other gets hurt. Nuts.

I agree with you. I guess I should say I don't like having 2 Cs either, and I wouldn't to do it. Since I don't see Gardy putting Doumit in RF regularly, it doesn't make sense is my bottom line. Even then, I still agree with you. This scenario makes even less sense if Doumit is on the bench (Mauer catching and Clete in RF) AND ALSO having a third catcher. Fair enough?

 

Also, I thought the same thing about having so may guys who can play many positions. I don't call that added versatility, I call that intentially moving players out of position to fill an imagined stop-gap defensive emergency.

[gmarais66]

P.S. While on 1500, Gardy said Willingham had agreed to be the emergency catcher, since he was once a catcher...

[John Bonnes]

I'm a little intrigued by the hand-wringing about this. What is the concern, exactly?

1. Are we worried about losing one of the bullpen pitchers to waivers? (I have a little trouble believing that.)

2. Is there a different player we want called up who would provide so much more value as the last guy on the bench? (It can't be Hughes, because it hasn't been 10 days, right?)

 

I can understand being generally opposed to having a 3rd catcher, just like I can understand being generally opposed to a 13 man pitching staff. But this isn't a theoretical situation. From a practical standpoint, what is the downside here?

[twinsnorth49]

I'm a little intrigued by the hand-wringing about this. What is the concern, exactly?

1. Are we worried about losing one of the bullpen pitchers to waivers? (I have a little trouble believing that.)

2. Is there a different player we want called up who would provide so much more value as the last guy on the bench? (It can't be Hughes, because it hasn't been 10 days, right?)

 

I can understand being generally opposed to having a 3rd catcher, just like I can understand being generally opposed to a 13 man pitching staff. But this isn't a theoretical situation. From a practical standpoint, what is the downside here?

 

The downside is that it might end up being the worst hitter in the modern history of baseball.

[Thrylos]

The downside is that it might end up being the worst hitter in the modern history of baseball.

+1 (and not only the modern history, Ancient history as well)

 

and with Gardenhire's need to play him at least every 5 days when Pavano starts, you know that the team will have at least 200 futile PAs.

[Shane Wahl]

The downside is that Drew Butera doesn't belong in major league baseball. I cannot believe how anyone could possibly defend bringing him up.

[John Bonnes]

A little back of the napkin figuring....

In 2010, when he was on the roster the whole year and Mauer's primary backup, Butera got 155 AB in 170 plate appearances. Let's assume he gets about 150 plate appearances, though that seems high. Furthermore, let's ONLY take a look at offensive impact, not counting any defensive value.

 

According to Baseball-reference.com, Butera has created 20 runs in 407 plate appearances or .048 runs per plate appearance.

Meanwhile, Hughes has created 31 runs in 335 plate appearances, or .092 per plate appearances.

The difference between those guys is .044 runs per plate appearance.

Over 150 plate appearance thats....6.6 runs difference. That's 2/3 of a win or less than 1% of the runs the Twins will produce this year.

 

It is also well within reach of what Butera could add just by gunning down a few baserunners.

 

I spent most of the offseason on the podcast asking that the Twins get some reasonable alternatives to Butera. But from a practical standpoint, they have. This kvetching seems like a knee-jerk reaction, a bad habit that we've developed, a Pavlovian defense mechanism.

[Cap'n Piranha]

+1 (and not only the modern history, Ancient history as well)

 

and with Gardenhire's need to play him at least every 5 days when Pavano starts, you know that the team will have at least 200 futile PAs.

This doesn't make any sense. Let's assume that Pavano starts 32 more games the rest of the year. That would mean Butera would have to get to the plate more than 6 times every game. Assuming Butera bats 8th or 9th, that means at least 48-54 PA's for the team in each of those games. Even if each game went 11 innings, we'd be looking at 15 to 21 baserunners, which should be enough to get 5 to 6 runs across at least, which is perfectly acceptable offensive production. What's more, even if Butera plummets to a .100/.125 BA/OBP, he will still, in 200 AB's, produce 20 hits and 5 walks, which are far from futile PA's.

 

Nor is Gardenhire worrying about losing the DH if he has to move Mauer or Doumit from that role to catcher an unsubstantiated fear. Given that the situation described here is EXACTLY what would happen, this is a completely substantiated fear. Finally, as John himself said, who exactly do we think would be getting the random AB's when Gardy doesn't have either Mauer or Doumit starting at catcher?

[twinsnorth49]

A little back of the napkin figuring....

In 2010, when he was on the roster the whole year and Mauer's primary backup, Butera got 155 AB in 170 plate appearances. Let's assume he gets about 150 plate appearances, though that seems high. Furthermore, let's ONLY take a look at offensive impact, not counting any defensive value.

 

According to Baseball-reference.com, Butera has created 20 runs in 407 plate appearances or .048 runs per plate appearance.

Meanwhile, Hughes has created 31 runs in 335 plate appearances, or .092 per plate appearances.

The difference between those guys is .044 runs per plate appearance.

Over 150 plate appearance thats....6.6 runs difference. That's 2/3 of a win or less than 1% of the runs the Twins will produce this year.

 

It is also well within reach of what Butera could add just by gunning down a few baserunners.

 

I spent most of the offseason on the podcast asking that the Twins get some reasonable alternatives to Butera. But from a practical standpoint, they have. This kvetching seems like a knee-jerk reaction, a bad habit that we've developed, a Pavlovian defense mechanism.

Knee jerk? I've been kvetching about Butera as far as 2 years back, last year developing into full fledged querulous whining! I won't defend Hughes but your comparison is between a guy who was pretty useless and a guy who is even more useless.

[Shane Wahl]

There may be a 7-10 guys with more value for the roster than Butera in Rochester. I don't care that it may only be 2/3 of a win. It's still 2/3 of a win, A, and B, some of these guys could overperform (Carson, Hollimon, Bates, etc.), but we know Butera is going to bat .200 at most and maybe crack .550 OPS if extremely lucky. It seems that the Twins have plenty of guys who could top .650 OPS. Is it so much to ask for a bench that has adequate or better than adequate bats at least in some situations (LH/RH)? There is no situation where one would ever want Drew Butera to be at the plate than any of those players. Even though he has sucked at Rochester (who cares given he is splitting time with two duds), if Gardenhire is so hellbent on having three catchers, I would prefer to see what Towles can do when given the opportunity.

 

I always laugh when I hear something like "at least they know what to expect from" x player (often Nick Punto was that x) as a reason to sign or utilize that player. Well we know exactly what to expect from Butera (and Rivera) and that is badness.

[gil4]

I can understand being generally opposed to having a 3rd catcher... From a practical standpoint, what is the downside here?

I think the downside is we don't trust Gardy to use him like a third catcher. He'll use Doumit as the DH/RF/3rd catcher and get Butera another 200+ ABs because he likes his defense.

[Shane Wahl]

I think the downside is we don't trust Gardy to use him like a third catcher. He'll use Doumit as the DH/RF/3rd catcher and get Butera another 200+ ABs because he likes his defense.

Good point. John . . . think if the Twins had some other closer and Matt Capps was still around as a setup man . . . I recall you saying on a G&G that you just wouldn't trust that Capps ends up closing for whatever Gardenhire-engineered reason. Same thing here.

[John Bonnes]

Knee jerk? I've been kvetching about Butera as far as 2 years back, last year developing into full fledged querulous whining! I won't defend Hughes but your comparison is between a guy who was pretty useless and a guy who is even more useless.

By "knee-jerk", I meant that it is a reflex, and in our case, it's a learned reflex. It might be fun to get mad about, but I think the criticism melts a bit when faced by any real analysis.

As for "useless" - that's my point. Yeah, Butera is relatively useless. So would be an extra middle infielder. Or a 5th outfielder. Or a 13th pitcher. To me, whatever move the Twins make is almost a freebie.

[Shane Wahl]

Let me say one thing, in defense of Butera ever being on the roster . . . if the Twins would (in May?) ever go with a 5 man bench and 11 pitchers (crazy idea, I know . . . hell 11 used to be high back when I was a kid). That last spot would literally be for a defensive replacement in close games only.

[John Bonnes]

I think the downside is we don't trust Gardy to use him like a third catcher. He'll use Doumit as the DH/RF/3rd catcher and get Butera another 200+ ABs because he likes his defense.

I'm still puzzled by this perception. I asked for evidence that Gardenhire is somehow partial to Butera in another thread and don't think I got a reply. Like I said, in 2010, when Mauer was the only catcher, Butera got 155 plate appearances. Last year, Butera got a ton of at-bats, but Mauer was hurt and there just weren't much in the way of other options. And this year, he was presumably involved in the decision to send Butera down before Towles and was the primary decisionmaker to carry Burroughs over a 3rd catcher. I'm honestly asking - why are we so convinced that Gardenhire has a mancrush on Butera?

 

I suppose the evidence could be Gardenhire quotes raving about Butera's defense, but what does that really prove? Only that Gardenhire feels the need to publicly reward a guy for playing defense (or publicly defend a guy he knows can't hit his way out of a paper bag.) If he didn't do that, wouldn't we criticize him for going after him like Valencia.