Game Thread: Twins @ Blue Jays 09/182021 - 12:07 PM CST

[shortround81]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Lenz said:

Well yea, they didn't give us any hope that this season would be fun by mid-April.

[Matthew Lenz]

?

[Matthew Lenz]

2 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Defining an ace is more difficult than ever these days ago now that bullpens are soaking up more innings. Berrios is exactly the type of guy we would want to target in free agency. A bulldog who gives his team a chance to win almost every time he pitches. Never gets injured, and pitches 6-7 innings each outing. 

He’s done very well in Toronto. I expected him to keep up his production after he left us. And he’s done better. I am still not thrilled with the trade. 

In his Twins career Berrios had an "average" BB/9 and averaged less than 6 innings per start.  Sure, he had a good amount of strikeouts but he danced around the zone too much to be considered a bulldog and you definitely couldn't not rely on him to give you 6-7 innings per outing. Yes, he gave you a chance, but as the teams #1 you expect more than that.

All that said, in his month and a half with Toronto he's been the exact pitcher you described.

[Vanimal46]

1 minute ago, Matthew Lenz said:

In his Twins career Berrios had an "average" BB/9 and averaged less than 6 innings per start.  Sure, he had a good amount of strikeouts but he danced around the zone too much to be considered a bulldog and you definitely couldn't not rely on him to give you 6-7 innings per outing. Yes, he gave you a chance, but as the teams #1 you expect more than that.

All that said, in his month and a half with Toronto he's been the exact pitcher you described.

It’s almost like when he’s not relied on being the only hope for an ace in the organization he can have fun again and produce. 

[RickOShea]

Apparently, the Bichette men have an aversion to short hair.

[Matthew Lenz]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

It’s almost like when he’s not relied on being the only hope for an ace in the organization he can have fun again and produce. 

If you look back at his time with the Twins, he either was not the best pitcher on the team or was nearly equivalent to another pitcher:

2017 - Ervin Santana was just as productive as Berrios.

2018 - maybe an exception to my rule although Jake Odorizzi was pretty solid too

2019 - Jake Odorizzi was better over the entire season and was a Cy Young candidate in the 1st half

2020 - Kenta Maeda Cy Young candidate

2021 - definite exception to the rule in a s***show season where any pressure to produce was nonexistent by June 1 when they clearly weren't a playoff team.

And if he can't have fun and produce when he's relied on, then he's absolutely not a bulldog or a pitcher that I want on my team. I want a pitcher who's a competitor and up for the challenge and finds fun in being the guy his team can rely on.

[RickOShea]

1 minute ago, Matthew Lenz said:

If you look back at his time with the Twins, he either was not the best pitcher on the team or was nearly equivalent to another pitcher:

2017 - Ervin Santana was just as productive as Berrios.

2018 - maybe an exception to my rule although Jake Odorizzi was pretty solid too

2019 - Jake Odorizzi was better over the entire season and was a Cy Young candidate in the 1st half

2020 - Kenta Maeda Cy Young candidate

2021 - definite exception to the rule in a s***show season where any pressure to produce was nonexistent by June 1 when they clearly weren't a playoff team.

And if he can't have fun and produce when he's relied on, then he's absolutely not a bulldog or a pitcher that I want on my team. I want a pitcher who's a competitor and up for the challenge and finds fun in being the guy his team can rely on.

Food for thought:  Steve Carlton wins 27 games in 1972.  total team wins for Phillies in 1972 was 59.

[Matthew Lenz]

4 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

Food for thought:  Steve Carlton wins 27 games in 1972.  total team wins for Phillies in 1972 was 59.

Interesting fun fact!

Not sure how it fits in with what I said in the message you quoted ?

[Vanimal46]

9 minutes ago, Matthew Lenz said:

If you look back at his time with the Twins, he either was not the best pitcher on the team or was nearly equivalent to another pitcher:

2017 - Ervin Santana was just as productive as Berrios.

2018 - maybe an exception to my rule although Jake Odorizzi was pretty solid too

2019 - Jake Odorizzi was better over the entire season and was a Cy Young candidate in the 1st half

2020 - Kenta Maeda Cy Young candidate

2021 - definite exception to the rule in a s***show season where any pressure to produce was nonexistent by June 1 when they clearly weren't a playoff team.

And if he can't have fun and produce when he's relied on, then he's absolutely not a bulldog or a pitcher that I want on my team. I want a pitcher who's a competitor and up for the challenge and finds fun in being the guy his team can rely on.

2018 was definitely an exception to your rule. You can admit it if you want an honest debate. Berrios 3.4 bWAR Odorizzi 1.2. Berrios was an all star again in 2019 with 3.1 bWAR, Odorizzi 3.5. He was better that year. Maeda was better for 11 starts in 2020 I’ll say that too. Who’s been better out of all 3 since 2017? 

Also, talk about taking my having fun out of context. He always had a smile and worked hard while he was here. 

While you build a pitching staff in Minnesota for 2022 and beyond, what criteria are you looking for? My guess is Berrios checks off many boxes. Durability, production, control, striking out players. 
 

[Matthew Lenz]

5 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

2018 was definitely an exception to your rule. You can admit it if you want an honest debate. Berrios 3.4 bWAR Odorizzi 1.2. Berrios was an all star again in 2019 with 3.1 bWAR, Odorizzi 3.5. He was better that year. Maeda was better for 11 starts in 2020 I’ll say that too. Who’s been better out of all 3 since 2017? 

Also, talk about taking my having fun out of context. He always had a smile and worked hard while he was here. 

While you build a pitching staff in Minnesota for 2022 and beyond, what criteria are you looking for? My guess is Berrios checks off many boxes. Durability, production, control, striking out players. 
 

I was cross referencing and mixed up the 2018 season. By fWAR (which has significantly different numbers than bWAR) Gibson (2.6) was actually better than Odorizzi (2.5) but my point was to say that it's not like Berrios (3.1) was our only hope for production that season. There were two other pitchers who were solid contributors.

To your point, Berrios is durable. WAR is counting stat. It's not hard to see why Berrios would have a higher WAR than those guys since 2017. Odo's career has been riddled with injuries. Maeda was misused as a reliever for different parts of his career.

I wouldn't mind seeing that Twins bring him back depending on the money he's demanding. I'm not really sure what you meant by "It’s almost like when he’s not relied on being the only hope for an ace in the organization he can have fun again and produce. " outside of he can't handle the pressure of being the best pitcher on a team. I didn't take what you said out of context, that's just how I interpreted what you said.

[Vanimal46]

1 minute ago, Matthew Lenz said:

I was cross referencing and mixed up the 2018 season. By fWAR (which has significantly different numbers than bWAR) Gibson (2.6) was actually better than Odorizzi (2.5) but my point was to say that it's not like Berrios (3.1) was our only hope for production that season. There were two other pitchers who were solid contributors.

To your point, Berrios is durable. WAR is counting stat. It's not hard to see why Berrios would have a higher WAR than those guys since 2017. Odo's career has been riddled with injuries. Maeda was misused as a reliever for different parts of his career.

I wouldn't mind seeing that Twins bring him back depending on the money he's demanding. I'm not really sure what you meant by "It’s almost like when he’s not relied on being the only hope for an ace in the organization he can have fun again and produce. " outside of he can't handle the pressure of being the best pitcher on a team. I didn't take what you said out of context, that's just how I interpreted what you said.

Gibson and Odorizzi were fine complimentary pitchers, but it was always Berrios who was relied upon to be the savior ace. In Toronto, they have established veterans who were signed and very good (Ryu and Ray.) Berrios wasn’t traded for to be the savior of their pitching staff. He is an excellent compliment, and now that some pressure is off him to be a savior, he can relax, have fun, and pitch great. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

This game wasn’t nearly as bad as I expected it to be after the first inning.

But damn that ninth inning was pathetic. Kepler needs to spend the off-season taking thousands of pitches and bunting them to third.