Tubby Out

[biggentleben]

There is only one answer to that, its that he thinks going 2-6 in the Big 10 and "earning" a meaningless bowl bid is some kind of accomplishment.

 

Complete bull. Kill has been advocating for a playoff system for years, and he has said that he will not measure the team by bowl appearances or even bowl victories, so that assumption is way, way off.

 

Northern Illinois never got the 5-star recruit either, but he built a program there that won against BCS teams year-in and year-out, including demolishing the Brewster team laden with two top-5 Big Ten recruiting classes.

[Mr. Brooks]

Complete bull. Kill has been advocating for a playoff system for years, and he has said that he will not measure the team by bowl appearances or even bowl victories, so that assumption is way, way off.

 

Northern Illinois never got the 5-star recruit either, but he built a program there that won against BCS teams year-in and year-out, including demolishing the Brewster team laden with two top-5 Big Ten recruiting classes.

 

Then what is the reason?

If you are going to dismiss my reason as "bull", then at least give your reason.

What would be the reason to avoid BSC competition in the non conference schedule?

[Otto von Ballpark]

including demolishing the Brewster team laden with two top-5 Big Ten recruiting classes.

Beating the Gophers, particularly the Brewster Gophers, should not be listed as a great achievement. I fear that was no small part of how Kill got the job here, not unlike Dan Monson and Gonzaga bouncing the Gophers from the 1999 NCAA tournament.

 

Although that pattern would suggest that Tubby's replacement might be... Tim Miles from Nebraska? Although he was just hired a year ago...

[Mike Sixel]

Cancelling the UNC series, and paying out money to do so, was sad and embarassing, imo. It's not like they are good or anything.....tubby had to go. Any random HS coach could finish in the bottom three in the conference every year.

 

The extensions (including the secret one to Borden right before he left) from the last AD were also embarrassing. How about Kill win some games before he gets extended beyond th 5 years still on his deal?

[biggentleben]

Then what is the reason?

If you are going to dismiss my reason as "bull", then at least give your reason.

What would be the reason to avoid BSC competition in the non conference schedule?

 

To build the team through success in those non-conference games. Yes, he wanted wins in those games, but the goal of that would not be a bowl game. It would be to get the team ready to win.

[Mr. Brooks]

To build the team through success in those non-conference games. Yes, he wanted wins in those games, but the goal of that would not be a bowl game. It would be to get the team ready to win.

 

How does letting your team beat up on a bunch of scrubs get them ready to win?

That is like saying you should train a pro boxer by bringing him to a nursing home and letting him beat up elderly women.

You get better by playing TOUGHER competition, not by playing easier competition. You have it backwards, IMO.

[biggentleben]

How does letting your team beat up on a bunch of scrubs get them ready to win?

That is like saying you should train a pro boxer by bringing him to a nursing home and letting him beat up elderly women.

You get better by playing TOUGHER competition, not by playing easier competition. You have it backwards, IMO.

 

You used a perfect analogy - boxers build up slowly as they establish themselves against better and better competition. You don't walk into the early 90s boxing scene and immediately start battling Tyson and Holyfield. You have to earn your way up, bout by bout, until you've shown yourself worthy of the established top competition.

[Mr. Brooks]

You used a perfect analogy - boxers build up slowly as they establish themselves against better and better competition. You don't walk into the early 90s boxing scene and immediately start battling Tyson and Holyfield. You have to earn your way up, bout by bout, until you've shown yourself worthy of the established top competition.

 

Uh yeah, but there is a threshold where the opponent is SO weak that it does you no good to beat up on them.

UNC is hardly Holyfield or Tyson.

If you can't play a competitive game against UNC, you have no business coaching a Big Ten football team.

[Fatt Crapps]

If you can't play a competitive game against UNC, you have no business coaching a Big Ten football team.

 

Exactly. And for $800,000?? I wish that money could be put towards something useful, like my lady's $50,000 student loan debt.

[biggentleben]

Uh yeah, but there is a threshold where the opponent is SO weak that it does you no good to beat up on them.

UNC is hardly Holyfield or Tyson.

If you can't play a competitive game against UNC, you have no business coaching a Big Ten football team.

 

You are entitled to your opinion. It's not as if they're scheduling Bemidji State or something, Kill has expressed a desire not to play a single FCS school if possible, but some local schools (North Dakota State, South Dakota State) are scheduled for local draw as much as anything. They're scheduling FBS schools that have every opportunity to play in a BCS bowl game. Same level of competition, but just not a member of a BCS conference. I've been an advocate of the program for well over a decade after ending my playing there, and I can tell you that there has never been a coach that has generated the same good will among alumni and former players/coaches as Kill has. Recruiting class ranks mean very little if you're recruiting to a system. Years ago, a spread team would get ripped for recruiting mid-tier guys and having poor recruiting ranks. Now the systems have turned to favor a spread approach, so those same skillset players are more highly rated, which alters how rankings appear. He's only got one recruit so far for the 2014 class committed, but it's a four-star (via scout.com), top-20 RB and an in-state talent. His 2013 class doesn't have headline guys, but it's deep with 8 3-star guys, including a load of size up front on both sides of the ball. You're on a Twins forum, supporting a team that has lost 60% of its games the last two seasons after being in competition for the top record in the league in 2010, but a coach taking over a complete mess of a program that's won at the same rate is blasted.

[Mr. Brooks]

You are entitled to your opinion. It's not as if they're scheduling Bemidji State or something, Kill has expressed a desire not to play a single FCS school if possible, but some local schools (North Dakota State, South Dakota State) are scheduled for local draw as much as anything. They're scheduling FBS schools that have every opportunity to play in a BCS bowl game. Same level of competition, but just not a member of a BCS conference. I've been an advocate of the program for well over a decade after ending my playing there, and I can tell you that there has never been a coach that has generated the same good will among alumni and former players/coaches as Kill has. Recruiting class ranks mean very little if you're recruiting to a system. Years ago, a spread team would get ripped for recruiting mid-tier guys and having poor recruiting ranks. Now the systems have turned to favor a spread approach, so those same skillset players are more highly rated, which alters how rankings appear. He's only got one recruit so far for the 2014 class committed, but it's a four-star (via scout.com), top-20 RB and an in-state talent. His 2013 class doesn't have headline guys, but it's deep with 8 3-star guys, including a load of size up front on both sides of the ball. You're on a Twins forum, supporting a team that has lost 60% of its games the last two seasons after being in competition for the top record in the league in 2010, but a coach taking over a complete mess of a program that's won at the same rate is blasted.

 

So you claim they paid $800,000 for UNC to go away, but are replacing them with, "equal level of competition". A) That's not true, and If it is true, that makes it even MORE rippable. That moves it from a "poorly spent" 800k, to a "complete waste" of 800k.

I mean, that makes me ask, once again, WHY? If Kill honestly thinks the team he is going to replace them with is equal competition, then why the hell does it matter which conference the team is from?

 

No, the Gophers have not won at the same rate as the Twins, unless you are counting the complete joke of a nonconference schedule. Get back to me when the Twins get to play 33% of their schedule against AAA teams, because that is basically the difference in competition between a Big Ten team, and these cupcake nonconference games they played last year.

 

Finally, I'm not ripping Kill because he hasnt won yet. I'm ripping him because I don't believe that he is aiming high enough with the program. It seems very obvious to me that his goal is to go 4-0 in non conference, so that he only has to win 2 games to make a meaningless bowl game. That is a losers mentality.

We disagree on his motivations, but the thing is, actions speak louder than words. You are believing his words, I'll believe his actions.

When the Twins pay the Orioles, Rays, and Rangers to go away, and replace them with AAA or Indy league teams, then I'll rip them for exactly the same thing.

[biggentleben]

So you claim they paid $800,000 for UNC to go away, but are replacing them with, "equal level of competition". A) That's not true, and If it is true, that makes it even MORE rippable. That moves it from a "poorly spent" 800k, to a "complete waste" of 800k.

I mean, that makes me ask, once again, WHY? If Kill honestly thinks the team he is going to replace them with is equal competition, then why the hell does it matter which conference the team is from?

 

No, the Gophers have not won at the same rate as the Twins, unless you are counting the complete joke of a nonconference schedule. Get back to me when the Twins get to play 33% of their schedule against AAA teams, because that is basically the difference in competition between a Big Ten team, and these cupcake nonconference games they played last year.

 

Finally, I'm not ripping Kill because he hasnt won yet. I'm ripping him because I don't believe that he is aiming high enough with the program. It seems very obvious to me that his goal is to go 4-0 in non conference, so that he only has to win 2 games to make a meaningless bowl game. That is a losers mentality.

We disagree on his motivations, but the thing is, actions speak louder than words. You are believing his words, I'll believe his actions.

When the Twins pay the Orioles, Rays, and Rangers to go away, and replace them with AAA or Indy league teams, then I'll rip them for exactly the same thing.

 

Nowhere did I say "equal", I said "same level of competition". That's a big difference.

 

Once again, your assumption about Kill's reasoning for the early season schedule is simply incorrect. Bowl games do not factor into his consideration with the non-conference schedule. The Gophers play in a traditional power conference, so they are getting plenty of "tune-up" games for 3/4 of their schedule.

 

Measuring by the almighty bowl game metric, the Gophers played against (and beat) a very solid Syracuse team this year. This year Syracuse was the only non-conference foe to make a bowl game, but there were multiple Big Ten opponents who did not make a bowl game. There was also one non-conference team coming off of a bowl season.

[Mr. Brooks]

Nowhere did I say "equal", I said "same level of competition". That's a big difference.

 

Once again, your assumption about Kill's reasoning for the early season schedule is simply incorrect. Bowl games do not factor into his consideration with the non-conference schedule. The Gophers play in a traditional power conference, so they are getting plenty of "tune-up" games for 3/4 of their schedule.

 

Measuring by the almighty bowl game metric, the Gophers played against (and beat) a very solid Syracuse team this year. This year Syracuse was the only non-conference foe to make a bowl game, but there were multiple Big Ten opponents who did not make a bowl game. There was also one non-conference team coming off of a bowl season.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

We both feel pretty strongly on it, so at this point continuing to debate it would be as pointless as debating religion.

 

The first time that Kill schedules a non conference schedule that isnt 4 cupcakes, I'll be the first one in here to admit I was wrong.

[biggentleben]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

We both feel pretty strongly on it, so at this point continuing to debate it would be as pointless as debating religion.

 

The first time that Kill schedules a non conference schedule that isnt 4 cupcakes, I'll be the first one in here to admit I was wrong.

 

Wanting wins does not equal wanting bowl games. Pure and simple.

 

Kill has not had 4 cupcakes yet, but you can continue down that road if you like.

[Mr. Brooks]

Wanting wins does not equal wanting bowl games. Pure and simple.

 

Kill has not had 4 cupcakes yet, but you can continue down that road if you like.

 

That's because he was still playing out Brewster's schedule.

 

Who are the nonconference opponents this year?

UNLV (2-11), New Mexico St.(1-11), San Jose St.(5-7), Western Illinois(3-7). 4 cupcakes.

 

What about 2014: Eastern Illinois, Middle Tennessee St., New Mexico St., San Jose St.

 

2015: South Dakota St., Colorado St., Kent St., Ohio.

 

Next 3 seasons, 12 cupcakes.

 

Whether its about bowl games or not, he's scheduling cupcakes to pad his W total.

[drjim]

What's your source on that? Everything I read says Tubby's extension increased the buyout from $1.5 to $2.5 mil:

 

Tubby Smith contract extension with Gophers includes $2.5M buyout max - ESPN

 

Tubby Smith extension details: Salary goes up, buyout goes up, will review at the end of season. | StarTribune.com

 

I want to provide some clarification because I heard it again this week on the buyout. Maturi had negotiated an extension but Teague was the one who put the finishing touches on it. Teague was able to lower the negotiated extension from $3 mil to $2.5 mil in the final contract. That was where I got confused.

 

I would support Teague a little bit in this one. He was in no position to fire Tubby at that time but was able to save the program a little bit of money. Maturi was nothing short of a disaster.

[Guest USAFChief]

Andy Katz is reporting Flip declined the job. Ruh-roh.

[twinsnorth49]

Actually, this extension was Norwood Teague's doing. (Although I suspect it was partially influenced by the AD change, with the new AD using the extension as a vote of confidence for Tubby. Not sure what good a vote of confidence is when you don't have confidence, though.)

 

Going into the last year of a coach's contract has been off-limits for awhile now -- remember the kerfuffle around Glen Mason with one year to go? And that was for a non-elite coach/program. The coach and their staff always need security beyond one year.

 

What's interesting is that anticipating the above effect, going into the last two years of a coach's contract is now almost unthinkable. Brewster got a token extension at that point, and Tubby got his big extension with two years left too.

 

I expect that any day now, Jerry Kill will require an extension beyond the five years remaining on his deal.

 

You're right it was under Teague but it was certainly Maturi and Kaler's deal. The fact Maturi stayed on with the University afterwards was even more baffling to me.

[Kobs]

Andy Katz is reporting Flip declined the job. Ruh-roh.

 

I don't know why a college team would want Flip Saunders.

[PseudoSABR]

I don't know why a college team would want Flip Saunders.

Because of his recruiting track record, of course.

[Guest USAFChief]

I don't know why a college team would want Flip Saunders.

"A college team" probably wouldn't. "This college team" apparently did. Hence the "ruh-roh." When you've just canned a HOF coach and owe him $3M+ on the way out the door, your top choices turn you down, you turn to the local favorite who for all practical purposes has openly lobbied for the job, and HE turns you down... Ruh-roh. For the record, neither of us know whether Saunders would make a good UM coach. Whether or not he can coach basketball isn't a question. I happen to think he'd have had a pretty good chance of firing up the fanbase and perhaps getting the ball rolling on donations for a practice facility. Whether he could recruit is an open question, although I think he stood a good chance of recruiting well locally, and the right assistant(s) might help. Hoiberg seems to be doing OK.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I would support Teague a little bit in this one. He was in no position to fire Tubby at that time but was able to save the program a little bit of money. Maturi was nothing short of a disaster.

 

I concur about Maturi, but I think some of this is spin. The more logical conclusion is that Teague, like most college athletic directors, doesn't really care about dollars and cents, so he was willing to extend Tubby just to keep up appearances, even though it ultimately cost the university an extra $1+ million less than a year later. I'm guessing Teague views that as chump change in his pursuit of a winning program like the "big boys" of college athletics.

 

But personally, absent any evidence that Minnesota can actually build and sustain such a program, I'd rather see a more realistic (and budget-conscious) focus on stability. Otherwise, we're basically the college equivalent of a pro team cycling through bad free agents, trying in vain to compete with the Yankees. And unfortunately, unlike the pro game where you have to pay some attention to the bottom line, college athletic programs don't seem to have any correction mechanism in place.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree with Spycake, go hire a mid-guy, and see if he works out and grows. Don't spend huge dollars at this point. But, if they do spend top dollars, it better be for a proven guy.

[Fatt Crapps]

For the record, neither of us know whether Saunders would make a good UM coach. Whether or not he can coach basketball isn't a question.

 

 

Haha

[kab21]

I was excited initially about Brewster's recruiting acumen, but his coaching never took hold. Coach Mason always seemed to have a chip on his shoulder and under-recruited to show how great a coach he was. Coach Wacker was solid, but seemed to lack that killer instinct. Time will show once Kill has the players to fit his system, but he is incredibly well-thought-of within national circles. I was told by one former Ohio State player that he would have been a big fan of Kill being hired there, which says volumes about his respect in the game.

Add Monson and Tubby to that list. There is an initial honeymoon period at UM where coaches just need to get the right players and then the program will turn around but the Gophers continue to be a mid-tier BB and FB program at best. I hope Kill turns it around though because I have always liked UM despite not being an alum.

[luke829]

In the end the Gophers go with Richard Pitino, son of Rick and current coach at Florida International University (for 1 full season). Can't say I saw that coming.

[Mike Sixel]

Also shocked. One hire earlier than you'd expect for him. clearly they were spurned by many.

[biggentleben]

Also shocked. One hire earlier than you'd expect for him. clearly they were spurned by many.

 

This was my thought, though my brother was told that he'd get an "upper echelon" job this year by people he was working with from ESPN during the Summit League tourney.

[Mike Sixel]

BTW, I like the hire, given what happened before it. If you can't get the guy(s) you want, roll the dice. don't just hire a retread.

[drjim]

BTW, I like the hire, given what happened before it. If you can't get the guy(s) you want, roll the dice. don't just hire a retread.

 

I agree with this. After they couldn't get the top guys it was a young guy like this or a retread. And I consider Flip to be a retread in this equation.