Source: Twins have 1 yr offer to Saunders; never made offer to Marcum

[FrodaddyG]

The poster you guys seem to be rallying against is as good-natured as anyone on this board. It's pretty easy to just skip over his posts if they bother you. There is a difference between being snarky and just being an *******.

Forrest Gump was a good-natured person. Doesn't mean I would have to hold his take on things in an equal regard to everyone else.

[FrodaddyG]

Quoted for irony and posterity.

Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?

[snepp]

This thread could use a serious dose of Joe Saunders news, good, bad, or otherwise.

[twinsnorth49]

Don't forget "Why is it bad to have a different opinion" meaning "Hey, don't call out why my ideas are factually wrong to borderline insane"

 

Don't forget " I think your post is stupid" meaning " Perhaps you didn't hear me the first 12 times, " I think your post is stupid and I'm fishing for some likes in my profile".

[lightfoot789]

No. The Twins have one. It's Mauer. And he isn't necessarily in the "decline" phase of his career just yet, but he's the only one with a significant contract that carries him beyond 2014. That is nowhere near "too many" long term deals. Jesus Christ.

 

I'm not sensitive that way. I don't mind the sarcasim.

The "Too Many" was referring to the FAs you wanted to purchase this season (Marcum / Jackson / McCarthy / etc.) for at least 3 years - not the people already on your team now (Mauer).

 

None of the above guys (FAs) are worth 3 years to me. 1 or 2 years sure - Not 3 years - Thats all.

[PseudoSABR]

Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not championing the poor efforts some people put into their posts; I've spoken out about it many times. I was just giving the Sheriff of Discourse a little guff.

[FrodaddyG]

I'm not sensitive that way. I don't mind the sarcasim.

The "Too Many" was referring to the FAs you wanted to purchase this season (Marcum / Jackson / McCarthy / etc.) for at least 3 years - not the people already on your team now (Mauer).

 

None of the above guys (FAs) are worth 3 years to me. 1 or 2 years sure - Not 3 years - Thats all.

And none of them are part of the Twins, so your using the statement (and I quote) " I don't want band aid fixes for the next 3 years, because we have too many declining vets with higher than deserved contracts that we are tied to." is preposterous. After this season the Twins will be on the hook for (roughly, without looking up the exact figures right now) $50M, if not less, depending on if guys like Willingham get moved before 2014. For a team whose budget could likely sit comfortably at twice that amount, it has all the signs of a piss-poor effort to put together a competitive product after talking a good game about the new stadium finally putting them in the revenue bracket where they could make the next step forward for the franchise.

[Riverbrian]

I have no intention of starting a flame war here. Didn't intend it When I posted my "stupid" idea of trusting the GM even when my confidence has been shaken. I don't intend it now.

 

This site could be such a Godsend to the over the top Twins Fan like myself. Many of us are like me. Our Twins and baseball passion has branched beyond what our real life local friends can compete with. Our degree of Twins passion leaves us isolated for someone to discuss with and this is what makes Twinsdaily a special place. At least it could be... But I fear the dark side is winning.

 

There are so many posters that I agree with and posters that I disagree with from time to time but I respect every one of them... Even when I post a contrary opinion.

 

Posters here range from retired 70 plus farmers to 12 year olds and i don't believe we know exactly who we are responding to. A 12 year old could be torn apart... Regardless... I think all should be welcome but it ain't my board. Tolerance is a lost art I guess.

 

Im not gonna defend my level of stupidity. I shouldn't have to and neither should anyone else... I don't claim to be superior... I claim to have an opinion and have never been afraid to share it. Maybe I mis-assessed the purpose of this gathering place.

 

I've just personally had it with one poster and I've decided to no longer care about any discussion with him going forward and am kindly asking for him to ignore my posts. My skin is of decent thickness... I have no problem with snark or snark in my direction. I can laugh at it... I really can... i just think that this is miles from the definition of snark. It has surpassed that.

 

Other than a flame war of sorts... Asking to be ignored is the only sensible option that I can think of.

[FrodaddyG]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not championing the poor efforts some people put into their posts; I've spoken out about it many times. I was just giving the Sheriff of Discourse a little guff.

I expect no less from the two of you. (But the social work thing wouldn't be entirely nonsensical, either.)

[TheLeviathan]

Quoted for irony and posterity.

 

Yeah, I'm sure that analogy really works well. Do tell, you're comping the Twins 4th starter position with....what was it?

[lightfoot789]

Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?

 

What is a lesser poster? Guys who don't feel your point of view.

 

It appears that some (not all) have felt this way about FO decisions since ownership took over 28 years ago. That being said - Who are these mad man complaining about the same issues of $ being spent?

I would like to see discussions of some inovative ways to get FAs here. Its obvious FO hasn't been listening for some 10,220+ days. Is money the only thing that will get FAs to MN?

[TheLeviathan]

Our degree of Twins passion leaves us isolated for someone to discuss with and this is what makes Twinsdaily a special place. At least it could be... But I fear the dark side is winning.

 

Passion can be negatively critical as well. I think this is where this issue has become so divisive lately. It's ok to be a fan and be upset or angry. It should be perfectly understandable why that is. All of us still posting negatively about the Twin's offseason still care enough about the team to be upset. Hearing inane conspiracy theories and lectures from people that we aren't being true fans to be critical or that we're not Terry Ryan so how dare we say anything, etc. is vapid and obnoxious.

[TheLeviathan]

Don't forget " I think your post is stupid" meaning " Perhaps you didn't hear me the first 12 times, " I think your post is stupid and I'm fishing for some likes in my profile".

 

Meh, the like crowd is the 4-5 people holding this bizarre stance that no one should say anything negative. You keep saying I repeat myself, well, if it was sinking in the first time for some people perhaps I wouldn't have to. Hard to be snarky without being given ammo for it.

 

Unless you're snepp. (Now THAT's fishing for a like!)

[lightfoot789]

1) Fielder selected Detroit because he grew up there and felt a connection in addition to the money.

2) Aramis Ramirez selected Milwaukee because he wanted his kid (in Cicago) to watch him play on TV and that would not be possible if he went to West coast (games on Pacific time).

3) Grienke almost selected Texas because his wife is from there - but Angel FO out bid the world to get him. Thank God for that TV contract they have.

4) Swisher is a home town guy who will probably become the face of Indians. That will probably lead to FO career with organization after he retires.

Money will generally be the end game, but there are also other reasons / factors these guys sign. We need to find that other "it" to get these guys here. I never hear people talk about why a guy should sign here besides money. They are not all hired guns.

[edavis0308]

Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?

 

What is a lesser poster? Guys who don't feel your point of view.

 

It appears that some (not all) have felt this way about FO decisions since ownership took over 28 years ago. That being said - Who are these mad man complaining about the same issues of $ being spent?

I would like to see discussions of some inovative ways to get FAs here. Its obvious FO hasn't been listening for some 10,220+ days. Is money the only thing that will get FAs to MN?

 

Offering people market value of their worth, while not being in the twilight of their career, is a good starting point..because they dont now. Or just target guys from Minnesota so they Can play for their home team at a discount (oh wait a second....)

[snepp]

(Now THAT's fishing for a like!)

 

Ask and ye shall receive?

[Nick Nelson]

Fro and Lev: Just cut it out. You might think you're doing the world a big favor by pointing out how stupid everyone else is but no one wants to hear it. The "Ignore" feature is readily available if you don't care for what a particular user has to say. You don't need to publicly ridicule them in an effort to prove to everyone how smart you are. Much of this "snark" is neither clever nor funny, but simply mean-spirited. Piling onto a good-natured poster after he's politely asked you to stop repeatedly is pathetic and embarrassing.

 

Why don't you let us worry about what will bring new users to the site and stop terrorizing/annoying the people who are already here?

[twinsnorth49]

Meh, the like crowd is the 4-5 people holding this bizarre stance that no one should say anything negative.

 

You keep saying this but outside of one notable "the sun is always shining" poster, I don't get it. I know there are a few posters who tend to steer clear of saying anything negative but you seem to go out of your way to take that as some personal affront to your right to be negative. I don't take anyone's sunny disposition to mean I don't have a right to be negative about some things.

[lightfoot789]

Passion can be negatively critical as well. I think this is where this issue has become so divisive lately. It's ok to be a fan and be upset or angry. It should be perfectly understandable why that is. All of us still posting negatively about the Twin's offseason still care enough about the team to be upset. Hearing inane conspiracy theories and lectures from people that we aren't being true fans to be critical or that we're not Terry Ryan so how dare we say anything, etc. is vapid and obnoxious.

 

People get your passion. They just want some creative idea other than "We have more money to spare. Offer more - Offer more." GMs make some excellent decisions (the trades) and GMs make some bad decisions (FAs) throughout baseball. Lets see where TR takes the Twins. He has been the guy who makes the decision for 1 year. Assistants don't make decisions - GMs do. Let the man work his plan. I think it funny how quick people call for a guys throat on this board.

[lightfoot789]

Offering people market value of their worth, while not being in the twilight of their career, is a good starting point..because they dont now. Or just target guys from Minnesota so they Can play for their home team at a discount (oh wait a second....)

 

I get everyones point who thinks this way. I'm stating that this has been the Twins way for 28 years with Free Agency. Ownership and FO changed their draft philosophy in 2012. That's the 1st Step. They improved farm system with trades. That's the 2nd step. Let's see if they change their philosophy with FAs as they move forward. Asking for a complete change in philosophy in 1 year might be a bit much. Especially when you are calling for TRs head. Can we at least enjoy the first changes of the last 28 years.

[TheLeviathan]

People get your passion. They just want some creative idea other than "We have more money to spare. Offer more - Offer more." GMs make some excellent decisions (the trades) and GMs make some bad decisions (FAs) throughout baseball. Lets see where TR takes the Twins. He has been the guy who makes the decision for 1 year. Assistants don't make decisions - GMs do. Let the man work his plan. I think it funny how quick people call for a guys throat on this board.

 

I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.

[FrodaddyG]

It appears that some (not all) have felt this way about FO decisions since ownership took over 28 years ago. That being said - Who are these mad man complaining about the same issues of $ being spent?

I would like to see discussions of some inovative ways to get FAs here. Its obvious FO hasn't been listening for some 10,220+ days. Is money the only thing that will get FAs to MN?

Money is the best way to get free agents ANYWHERE. It isn't just "cold weather" (since the baseball season falls smack in the middle of the best time of year, Minnesota-weather-wise) that is keeping guys away. I mean, guys sign to play in Texas when it's over 95 degrees virtually the entire months of July and August. There's always going to be defining factors for any given player, but the problem that many here are pointing out is that Ryan still seems to work off a Metrodome mentality when it comes to his budget. He's so concerned with not paying what he considers "too much" that he's not realizing that what he considers "too much" is where the market is just at these days. "$9M a year for a pitcher? That's what I was paying Brad Radke to be our ace just 10 years ago! It's outrageous!" Then he somehow outrageously gives $10M over multiple years to a dumpster-dive like Correia (whom they for some reason overvalued early in the signing period), and let equal to possibly better players go elsewhere for less money and/or years.

 

When the Twins turned it around in the early 2000's, they caught lightning in a bottle when half a dozen guys all matured and came up at the same time. From the late 90's to early 2000's, guys like Doug, AJ, Koskie, Hunter, Jacque, Guzman, Rivas, and Ortiz were all basically forced into roles due to the lack of any other options, and they played well enough that the team could eventually be competitive. The chances of having to play that many young guys and all of them holding their own again is very slim. (And the upper levels of the minors aren't exactly busting with non-outfield position prospects that are screaming out for rapid advancement.) With the state of the roster right now, the team for 2014 could basically be Mauer, with prospects everywhere else in the lineup. Add to that a very young pitching staff, and that's a whole lot of dice rolls you're hoping to not crap out on coming off of what will likely be three pretty miserable seasons in a row.

 

Now, there can be some spots that look bright going through 2013. Hopefully Hicks comes up at some point and holds his own at the plate. He's a premium defender, so if he can man CF and not be disgraceful at the plate, that's a huge building block. Ideally, at least one of Meyer or May looks solid enough in the high minors to give some hope that we get one guy that looks like a #3 or better in 2014 and beyond. Gibson rebounding from injury and throwing a decent 125 IP would be a bright spot as well.

 

But the reality is, there are still a lot of questionably talented players who will be getting a lot of IP and a lot of PAs this coming season. There's good reason to be plenty skeptical, and pinning every hope for improvement on "the farm system" the way Ryan seems to be doing doesn't give a whole lot of reason to get your hopes up for at least a few more years. At some point, the FO needs to accept that Ryan's idea of "overpaying" isn't overpaying, it's where the market is and make him adjust accordingly or find someone else who will. If they're sitting at a $50M payroll next offseason and the only building blocks still being brought in are Correia-level roster filler or fliers on guys coming off injuries, then something drastic needs to be done to shake up the FO and get the franchise to be a player for actual, useful free agents. The farm system just isn't going to be providing an entire effective 25-man roster around Mauer anytime soon, or even by the end of his gargantuan contract.

[edavis0308]

I get everyones point who thinks this way. I'm stating that this has been the Twins way for 28 years with Free Agency. Ownership and FO changed their draft philosophy in 2012. That's the 1st Step. They improved farm system with trades. That's the 2nd step. Let's see if they change their philosophy with FAs as they move forward. Asking for a complete change in philosophy in 1 year might be a bit much. Especially when you are calling for TRs head. Can wer at least enjoy the first changes of the last 28 years.

 

The only logical idea behind the whole free agency thing is either they literally will not pay market value for free agents.. or they really didn't like their chances as a team this year and opted to keep their money. Maybe when they have better pieces in place they will, but it'll be a few years before we can confirm or deny that theory. Then again, when this team had such a need to be supplanted with free agent arms And they still didn't, its easy to see the pessimist side of things that they flat out won't pay out the money need for a quality free agent arm.

 

as far as other theories for free agents Signing, it can be lumped into three categories: money, chance to win, personal ties (family or beginning of career was there, play for a specific manager, etc). I highly doubt if someone likes a city to buy a vacation home there, or the weather, or if they have their favorite restaurant chain there will be any reasons to outweigh the previous top three.

 

If the Twins want better free agents to come here, it really is that simple: Actually offer them a contract and don't low ball them.

[lightfoot789]

I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.

 

True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

[TheLeviathan]

True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

 

I'm not sure what the point here was. I'm going to let the Twins know how I feel the best way I can, with my money. (Already have by canceling season tickets) Unfortunately, I know that hurts the team and I know many others are making that same decision.

 

You're right the Twins have been doing this for a long time, that's precisely the problem. Unless more people speak up with frustration about this tight-fisted approach they probably won't change their ways. I don't hold a lot of hope regardless because I think it's a Pohlad-driven idea. But it's nonetheless frustrating. It doesn't change my appreciation for what they do well (and they do many things well as an organization) but they are completely and utterly failing to use their added resources to improve their team in one critical avenue. As fans, we should be frustrated by that.

[edavis0308]

I don't know what else anyone can add to this. What haven't they done For 28 years? Pay free agents market value. What can they do moving forward to get more free agents to sign with them? Pay market value.

[lightfoot789]

Money is the best way to get free agents ANYWHERE. It isn't just "cold weather" (since the baseball season falls smack in the middle of the best time of year, Minnesota-weather-wise) that is keeping guys away. I mean, guys sign to play in Texas when it's over 95 degrees virtually the entire months of July and August. There's always going to be defining factors for any given player, but the problem that many here are pointing out is that Ryan still seems to work off a Metrodome mentality when it comes to his budget. He's so concerned with not paying what he considers "too much" that he's not realizing that what he considers "too much" is where the market is just at these days. "$9M a year for a pitcher? That's what I was paying Brad Radke to be our ace just 10 years ago! It's outrageous!" Then he somehow outrageously gives $10M over multiple years to a dumpster-dive like Correia (whom they for some reason overvalued early in the signing period), and let equal to possibly better players go elsewhere for less money and/or years.

 

When the Twins turned it around in the early 2000's, they caught lightning in a bottle when half a dozen guys all matured and came up at the same time. From the late 90's to early 2000's, guys like Doug, AJ, Koskie, Hunter, Jacque, Guzman, Rivas, and Ortiz were all basically forced into roles due to the lack of any other options, and they played well enough that the team could eventually be competitive. The chances of having to play that many young guys and all of them holding their own again is very slim. (And the upper levels of the minors aren't exactly busting with non-outfield position prospects that are screaming out for rapid advancement.) With the state of the roster right now, the team for 2014 could basically be Mauer, with prospects everywhere else in the lineup. Add to that a very young pitching staff, and that's a whole lot of dice rolls you're hoping to not crap out on coming off of what will likely be three pretty miserable seasons in a row.

 

Now, there can be some spots that look bright going through 2013. Hopefully Hicks comes up at some point and holds his own at the plate. He's a premium defender, so if he can man CF and not be disgraceful at the plate, that's a huge building block. Ideally, at least one of Meyer or May looks solid enough in the high minors to give some hope that we get one guy that looks like a #3 or better in 2014 and beyond. Gibson rebounding from injury and throwing a decent 125 IP would be a bright spot as well.

 

But the reality is, there are still a lot of questionably talented players who will be getting a lot of IP and a lot of PAs this coming season. There's good reason to be plenty skeptical, and pinning every hope for improvement on "the farm system" the way Ryan seems to be doing doesn't give a whole lot of reason to get your hopes up for at least a few more years. At some point, the FO needs to accept that Ryan's idea of "overpaying" isn't overpaying, it's where the market is and make him adjust accordingly or find someone else who will. If they're sitting at a $50M payroll next offseason and the only building blocks still being brought in are Correia-level roster filler or fliers on guys coming off injuries, then something drastic needs to be done to shake up the FO and get the franchise to be a player for actual, useful free agents. The farm system just isn't going to be providing an entire effective 25-man roster around Mauer anytime soon, or even by the end of his gargantuan contract.

 

All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.

[FrodaddyG]

True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

There's nothing any individual fan can do to change this. The FO needs to have a shift somewhere, and maybe it ends up being in an entirely different direction from Ryan. The man has been the GM for the better part of the last 2 decades. Maybe another losing season followed by dropping attendance pushes them to do something else. Maybe the fact that they're still going to be making money regardless of how bad attendance gets means they don't care and nothing changes. They've been devoutly loyal to Ryan through the worst of times, but at least then they had the Metrodome to blame their poorer finances on. That excuse is gone, but the outlook is now as poor in the short-to-mid term as those mid-to-late-90's teams. Maybe a new voice and approach would help at the top, but it seems that as long as the team is running in the black, the Pohlads are probably just fine taking the money to the bank and letting the status quo reign. No individual fan can change that.

[FrodaddyG]

All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.

The thing is, Ryan isn't "outside the box". It's the same box he's been in for close to 20 years. And having two "Saber guys" isn't a huge paradigm shift. Neither is drafting hard throwing pitchers. (The past handful of drafts have been peppered with those kind of guys in the first 10 rounds.) Ryan will get his few years, no question, but the process so far has been entirely the "tearing down" part without a whole lot of hope that a serious "building up" phase is anywhere close.

[lightfoot789]

I'm not sure what the point here was. I'm going to let the Twins know how I feel the best way I can, with my money. (Already have by canceling season tickets) Unfortunately, I know that hurts the team and I know many others are making that same decision.

 

You're right the Twins have been doing this for a long time, that's precisely the problem. Unless more people speak up with frustration about this tight-fisted approach they probably won't change their ways. I don't hold a lot of hope regardless because I think it's a Pohlad-driven idea. But it's nonetheless frustrating. It doesn't change my appreciation for what they do well (and they do many things well as an organization) but they are completely and utterly failing to use their added resources to improve their team in one critical avenue. As fans, we should be frustrated by that.

 

My point is you've been saying the same thing for 28 years and they don't hear you. Make them hear you a different way (cancelled season tickets like you said). As to my example about cleaning your room - Are you the parent who ends up grounding your kid because he didn't listen or the one who will say the same thing "day in and day out" until he "hopefully" responds? And if you ground him - at least see if that method works. Don't stand over him while he cleans making your unheard point - heard. It seldom works. Hit him where it hurts and move on.