TwinsDaily 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot

[Seth Stohs]

Tomorrow, MLB and the Baseball Hall of Fame will announce whether or not any players will be inducted into the Hall. The announcement typically comes at 1:00 central time.

 

Here is the 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot: 2013 Official Hall of Fame Ballot - Baseball-Reference.com

 

If you had a vote, who would get your vote? Like the writers, you can vote for zero to ten of the candidates. Pete Rose is not on the ballot, so you can write him in if you feel he should. I'd like to have people use the below thread to "cast your vote" and tell us your reasons for your vote. I'll be curious to see how Twins Daily's vote lines up with the actual vote.

 

So, for me... My vote is for:

 

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmiero, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Tim Raines, Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell...

 

If he's reading this, my sincere apologies to Fred McGriff, who I certainly think deserves strong consideration. I just can't put him above any of those above.

[snepp]

Dump Sosa, add Trammell.

[Seth Stohs]

I've always said I'd be fine with Trammell being in the Hall of Fame AFTER Lou Whitaker gets in... (and Whitaker didn't even get to a 2nd year on the ballot)

[krada1212]

I would write in Pete Rose. That's it. If Rose was in then I could look over the use of steroids. But if I'm expected to overlook breaking rules/integrity flaws, then I refuse until we overlook it for the all-time hits leader also.

 

As for Morris and Trammell and the other older guys, I think that they are close, but not quite worthy.

[JB_Iowa]

Dump most of your list.

 

 

And go read Verducci's latest article: Why I'll never vote for a known steroids user for the Hall of Fame - MLB - Tom Verducci - SI.com

 

Nobody explains it better.

[Seth Stohs]

Dump most of your list.

 

 

And go read Verducci's latest article: Why I'll never vote for a known steroids user for the Hall of Fame - MLB - Tom Verducci - SI.com

 

Nobody explains it better.

 

Doesn't change my vote at all... but my opinion is if the choice is to not vote for any of these guys, then voters shouldn't vote for anyone because no one knows for sure.

[JB_Iowa]

I didn't expect that it would change your vote ....; more's the pity.

[Jim Crikket]

Yeah, I'm normally a big Verducci fan, but not in this case. I just can't stomach the "sportswriter as morality police" thing. I will say that, considering Verducci was one of the writers perhaps most responsible for eventually exposing the PED culture in baseball (maybe even THE writer most responsible), then if any writer has a right to this position, he's it. But where were the writers in the 1990s when all the juicing was going on? They were raising these same ballplayers up on their pedestals. For them to, now, claim the moral high ground while laying all the blame at the feet of the players, their union, the ballclubs and even the fans... well... that's more hypocracy than I can support.

 

Any writer who publishes a ballot that excludes the PED users, should be required to start her/his article by reciting all of the work s/he did to expose the problem. At least Verducci can do that. Most others can't.

[Musk21]

Morris, Bagwell, Raines, Trammell, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Biggio, Sosa

[Boom Boom]

Piazza, Biggio, and Trammell.

[ericchri]

Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell, Biggio, McGwire, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Lofton, Trammel

 

I'd probably vote for Palmeiro, Martinez, and Walker as well if allowed more than 10. I could be talked into Sosa and McGriff too. Yeah, I'm a Big Hall guy. I've never really felt Morris was a Hall of Famer, but it wouldn't bother me to see him make it. His fame was probably higher than his actual performance, and it's called the Hall of Fame for a reason, presumably.

[Pius Jefferson]

I'll cheat and do an early 2014 ballot.

 

Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Bonds, Clemens

[Thrylos]

Mine (and the explanation is here)

 

Hall of Fame Ballot: Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell, Schilling.

 

Since players like Larkin, Alomar and Dawson have been recently elected, got to add:

 

(hall of very good) Walker, Trammell, Raines, Palmeiro, Lofton, Martinez

 

Biggio (even though better than Dawson) is the 11th man and loses by a hair.

[biggentleben]

I would write in Pete Rose. That's it. If Rose was in then I could look over the use of steroids. But if I'm expected to overlook breaking rules/integrity flaws, then I refuse until we overlook it for the all-time hits leader also.

 

As for Morris and Trammell and the other older guys, I think that they are close, but not quite worthy.

 

Then you'd need to dump 90% of the Hall of Famers from DiMaggio to Mantle to Mays for all the amphetamines ("Greenies") taken for over 50 years of the game before they were even outlawed (remember that steroids weren't specifically outlawed - as in tested for - until Barry Bonds was already an easy Hall of Fame choice). Those greenies were illegal in the general public just as steroids have been, and they've actually been proven to improve total performance. There is no such thing as a clean era in the HOF.

[biggentleben]

I'll cheat and do an early 2014 ballot.

 

Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Bonds, Clemens

 

Complete homer pick, but I would LOVE to see Maddux break Seaver's record.

[Top Gun]

Rose, Bonds and Clemens get it over with they belong more than anyone else, it's baseball!

[ThePuck]

Then you'd need to dump 90% of the Hall of Famers from DiMaggio to Mantle to Mays for all the amphetamines ("Greenies") taken for over 50 years of the game before they were even outlawed (remember that steroids weren't specifically outlawed - as in tested for - until Barry Bonds was already an easy Hall of Fame choice). Those greenies were illegal in the general public just as steroids have been, and they've actually been proven to improve total performance. There is no such thing as a clean era in the HOF.

 

In '91, Vincent's memorandum outlawed all illegal and controlled substances (so that covers greenies and steroids). At that point, Bonds had only played 5, 6 seasons. How was he already an easy HOF choice?

[biggentleben]

In '91, Vincent's memorandum outlawed all illegal and controlled substances (so that covers greenies and steroids). At that point, Bonds had only played 5, 6 seasons. How was he already an easy HOF choice?

 

Note my clarification "as in tested for".

[peterb18]

Dump most of your list.

 

 

And go read Verducci's latest article: Why I'll never vote for a known steroids user for the Hall of Fame - MLB - Tom Verducci - SI.com

 

Nobody explains it better.

 

I completely agree with Verducci. Listened to his roundtable discusssion on MLB network yesterday--most of the panel(Costas, Verducci, Russo and a few others) did a good job in evaluating the steroid era. Those on the panel were very adamant against admitting steroid users. Only one writer would admit Bonds and Clemens. What bothers me the most is the records. I can remember when we would always say, "Can anybody beat the Babe this year, or can anybody beat Maris' 6l?

Now those types of discussions are over because of Steroids.

[ThePuck]

Note my clarification "as in tested for".

 

I get that, and that's cool, but I don't think we should say it's okay just cause they weren't testing for it. Right is right, wrong is wrong, legal is legal, illegal is illegal. I don't think there's a grey area just because it was banned but not tested for. So while semantically you're correct, I wouldn't say he was a HOFer after 5 or 6 seasons just because they hadn't started testing for the banned stuff he was taking yet. Heck, it was still illegal.

[jtrinaldi]

It is a shame that Jeff Cirillo didn't get it

[ThePuck]

I'm glad Bernie Williams isn't staying on the ballot...

[biggentleben]

I get that, and that's cool, but I don't think we should say it's okay just cause they weren't testing for it. Right is right, wrong is wrong, legal is legal, illegal is illegal. I don't think there's a grey area just because it was banned but not tested for. So while semantically you're correct, I wouldn't say he was a HOFer after 5 or 6 seasons just because they hadn't started testing for the banned stuff he was taking yet. Heck, it was still illegal.

 

You honestly believe he was taking it at that point? His closest friends and advisors that have stated that he did use all say that it was in response to 1998's attention to two guys who were obviously bending rules. If you look through 1998, Bonds put up a 164 OPS+, 400+ home runs and 400+ stolen bases, and he won 3 MVPs (should have been 4 in a row) and placed in the top 5 of MVP voting 7 times while winning 8 Gold Gloves (and was renowned as a great fielder, one thing that obviously disappeared after 1998). That player is a HOF player every single day.

[biggentleben]

I'm glad Bernie Williams isn't staying on the ballot...

 

Certainly knocks down the opportunity to hear excellent jazz down the halls of HOF.

[ThePuck]

You honestly believe he was taking it at that point? His closest friends and advisors that have stated that he did use all say that it was in response to 1998's attention to two guys who were obviously bending rules. If you look through 1998, Bonds put up a 164 OPS+, 400+ home runs and 400+ stolen bases, and he won 3 MVPs (should have been 4 in a row) and placed in the top 5 of MVP voting 7 times while winning 8 Gold Gloves (and was renowned as a great fielder, one thing that obviously disappeared after 1998). That player is a HOF player every single day.

 

Well, the poster said he was a HOF member before they were outlawed, and they were outlawed in '91. At that time, he wasn't a HOFer.

 

And are we really supposed to believe 'His closest friends and advisers that have stated that he did use all say that it was in response to 1998's attention to two guys who were obviously bending rules.' Aren't these the same guys that said, at the beginning, he didn't use it ever? So it's like, we have evidence to suggest he used it from X date. Oh, okay, you ahve that huh? Hmm, well, he didn't use it before.

 

It's like the Pettite admission that he gets praised for. he was caught, so he admitted what was already known, but only during that time..you know, the time they already knew for sure about. It's like a wife catching her husband in bed with another woman doing it. Well, yeah honey, I was cheating...but it's the first time. Is that an admission?

 

I'm not going to claim I know when he did what...

[biggentleben]

I'm not going to claim I know when he did what...

 

...and in doing so, you differentiate yourself from HOF voters, most of whom claim a player did them on this date or this date...without information to back that up.

[ThePuck]

...and in doing so, you differentiate yourself from HOF voters, most of whom claim a player did them on this date or this date...without information to back that up.

 

One writer said he won't ever vote for a player who played in the steroid ERA, period. By saying that, he should have his HOF voting rights revoked.

[biggentleben]

One writer said he won't ever vote for a player who played in the steroid ERA, period. By saying that, he should have his HOF voting rights revoked.

 

Absolutely. We can argue day and night about whether a player who has knowingly used should get in, but there needs to be accountability for the voting. Making absurd generalizations like that is simply not OK in a HOF voter. Jack Morris is a contentious point on this board, understandably so because of his Twins history, but people attempting to claim "the steroid era" inflated his numbers are simply asinine. There's no reason a person who can't read a calendar is allowed to vote on who makes the hall of fame.

[krada1212]

Then you'd need to dump 90% of the Hall of Famers from DiMaggio to Mantle to Mays for all the amphetamines ("Greenies") taken for over 50 years of the game before they were even outlawed (remember that steroids weren't specifically outlawed - as in tested for - until Barry Bonds was already an easy Hall of Fame choice). Those greenies were illegal in the general public just as steroids have been, and they've actually been proven to improve total performance. There is no such thing as a clean era in the HOF.

 

This just proves my point. It is all hypocrisy. Why do we let most cheaters in, but not Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe. If it is only about performance then those two guys need to be in. The people who are in are already in, and theres nothing that we can do about that, but if I got a vote, I wouldn't add to the hypocrisy. Let them all in, or no more.

 

Also, the HOF is an extra honor, not a right. I'm fine admitting that Bonds and others are great players, but that doesn't mean we need to go out of our way to celebrate them as we would be doing if they were elected.

[kab21]

I've always said I'd be fine with Trammell being in the Hall of Fame AFTER Lou Whitaker gets in... (and Whitaker didn't even get to a 2nd year on the ballot)

 

Silly argument. You have a valid argument for Whitaker but Trammell was no doubt one of the top 4 SS's in the league while he played (counting Larkin). I would put him in before Sosa, Palmeiro, Raines and Bagwell and that's not an argument against those guys. I really like Trammell.