Scott Feldman, the Cubs, and how Theo Epstien is making Terry Ryan's life miserable

[jokin]

Remind me the last time the Royals or Cubs were relevant?

 

I know in your ducky and bunny universe the Twins are on some pedestal above these teams, but I might remind you to check the standings. Past success has little to do with the future of this team and the moves they should be making with that in mind.

 

But that's ok....If (more likely when based on past history) Terry Ryan doesn't sign anyone and his reasoning is that none of the players were in a price range they felt "comfortable" with - just make sure you come to his defense.

 

He won't, he'll just act like it never happened in ducky/bunnyland, but the guy with the thing for birds sure will.

[jokin]

I don't care about Theo either who basically lucked into those teams (with Ortiz and Manny in the lineup)

 

Yeah, what a stroke of luck for rookie GM Theo Epstein, finding a dusty, forgotten, long-time Red Sock David Ortiz rotting away in a broom closet in the bowels of Fenway Park a couple of months after taking over.

 

Oh, wait, Epstein signed him after Ryan decided he had no use for a designated hitter who could actually hit.

 

But having All Stars like Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester, and Clay Buchholz all make the team as walk-ons who just sort of showed up at spring training they way they did, Theo totally lucked out with those guys.

 

Hmmm. Come to think of it, he picked all of them in the first or second round of the amateur draft.

 

Sorry, totally meant to play along in your game of 'portray widely respected GM as lucky rube', but my examples weren't very good.

 

:s-instagib: Epic, utter Takedown

[bird]

jokin, I will be there to criticise Ryan if he fails to procure two #2-3 starters, via trade and FA signings, between now and the start of the season. I said as much earlier in this thread.

 

Of course, that won't stop you from predicting that I'll defend Ryan regardless, because that's just who you are.

[TheLeviathan]

I agree, Leviathan, that the Cubs are smart for signing Feldman and Baker. But this would ONLY make sense for the Twins if they were supplemental signings. They need two #2-3 starters. Not much need for two more #4-5 starters. Diamond is better than both those guys, and we need two guys who are better than Diamond.

 

Frankly, I don't see why the Twins are all that much different than the Cubs in how they should approach things. If you're waiting around to sign players better than Diamond join the rest of the league in that battle. I can appreciate what you want the team to do, just can't get on board with something I find highly unlikely to happen.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I agree, Leviathan, that the Cubs are smart for signing Feldman and Baker. But this would ONLY make sense for the Twins if they were supplemental signings. They need two #2-3 starters. Not much need for two more #4-5 starters. Diamond is better than both those guys, and we need two guys who are better than Diamond.

 

Frankly, I don't see why the Twins are all that much different than the Cubs in how they should approach things. If you're waiting around to sign players better than Diamond join the rest of the league in that battle. I can appreciate what you want the team to do, just can't get on board with something I find highly unlikely to happen.

 

The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

 

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.

[TheLeviathan]

The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

 

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.

 

That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

 

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.

[bird]

Just my opinion based on what Ryan has indicated: 1) it's very possible that Ryan DOES have the money to spend on a #2-3 FA starter, whtever market, and 2) despite his penurious past history, Ryan is very possibly highly motivated to add non-fringe ptchers as opposed to the Feldman types.

 

I know this flies in the face of past history, so I understand and respect the doubt and skepticism. I just believe th economics have changed enough that we could (and should) be pleasantly surprised by what Ryan does this winter. And of cours, jokinwill then sing Ryan's praises from the rooftops.

[jokin]

Just my opinion based on what Ryan has indicated: 1) it's very possible that Ryan DOES have the money to spend on a #2-3 FA starter, whtever market, and 2) despite his penurious past history, Ryan is very possibly highly motivated to add non-fringe ptchers as opposed to the Feldman types.

 

I know this flies in the face of past history, so I understand and respect the doubt and skepticism. I just believe th economics have changed enough that we could (and should) be pleasantly surprised by what Ryan does this winter. And of cours, jokinwill then sing Ryan's praises from the rooftops.

 

Past is Prologue. Let's just say I'm not holding my breath and expectantly warming up my vocal cords for the "praise-singing"...

[Top Gun]

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.

[jokin]

The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

 

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.

 

That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

 

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.

 

We've gone one full year with the "new" regime and everything old is new again. Crying poor and TR competing with a torn and tattered rule book well past it's expiration date. What you are advocating for is quite logical, and was logical a year ago- and many of us proposed such an approach then. Is there any indication whatsoever that they've yet figured this out down at One Twins Way? Or is there only just one Twins way- the "penurious" path on which birdwatcher loves treading.

[jokin]

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.

 

TR should have spent the last 3 months getting his ducks in a row and picking off the low-hanging fruit in the month of November to show the league and the fanbase the seriousness of his intent. As another poster just said, this club needs both quantity and quality. A couple of legit, albeit lower-impact major leaguers should already be on the 2013 roster via trade or FA.

[jokin]

jokin, I will be there to criticise Ryan if he fails to procure two #2-3 starters, via trade and FA signings, between now and the start of the season. I said as much earlier in this thread.

 

Of course, that won't stop you from predicting that I'll defend Ryan regardless, because that's just who you are.

 

You do realize that acquiring two front-end starters with the approach this club takes is next to impossible, right? I am standing by my prediction of an ~$85M payroll. What say you? Two F/End starter acquisitions would push the payroll well past $100M. Do you really see this happening without gutting the team elsewhere on the roster? It's just not the penurious one's style now, is it?

[Mike Sixel]

The Twins have plenty of money, they just choose to allocate it differently than the Cubs. There is plenty of money for this payroll to be higher, they have chosen (based on last year) not to spend it on the MLB club salaries.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

 

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.

 

That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

 

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.

 

We've gone one full year with the "new" regime and everything old is new again. Crying poor and TR competing with a torn and tattered rule book well past it's expiration date. What you are advocating for is quite logical, and was logical a year ago- and many of us proposed such an approach then. Is there any indication whatsoever that they've yet figured this out down at One Twins Way? Or is there only just one Twins way- the "penurious" path on which birdwatcher loves treading.

 

Who's crying poor? The Cubs have more money than the Twins. That's all there is to it.

[jokin]

The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

 

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.

 

That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

 

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.

 

We've gone one full year with the "new" regime and everything old is new again. Crying poor and TR competing with a torn and tattered rule book well past it's expiration date. What you are advocating for is quite logical, and was logical a year ago- and many of us proposed such an approach then. Is there any indication whatsoever that they've yet figured this out down at One Twins Way? Or is there only just one Twins way- the "penurious" path on which birdwatcher loves treading.

 

Who's crying poor? The Cubs have more money than the Twins. That's all there is to it.

 

I thought we fixed the "compete with the big dogs" problem with TF? Your comment sounds like we've time-traveled back to the thrilling days of the Plasti-dome Era.

[Kwak]

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.

 

TR should have spent the last 3 months getting his ducks in a row and picking off the low-hanging fruit in the month of November to show the league and the fanbase the seriousness of his intent. As another poster just said, this club needs both quantity and quality. A couple of legit, albeit lower-impact major leaguers should already be on the 2013 roster via trade or FA.

That Baker signed elsewhere implies either of the following to me: a) Ryan has seriously underestimated the price of starting pitching or every pitcher that receives "a final offer from the Twins "will immediately shop it" and sign elsewhere for slightly more, thus forcing the Twins to make "a blow-away" offer in order to sign a pitcher.

[Top Gun]

I have played fantasy baseball since 1973 and football since 1982 sometimes in 10 different leagues. Ryan should have made the Marlin, Jays trade but maybe he couldn't, his time will come soon.

[jokin]

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.

 

TR should have spent the last 3 months getting his ducks in a row and picking off the low-hanging fruit in the month of November to show the league and the fanbase the seriousness of his intent. As another poster just said, this club needs both quantity and quality. A couple of legit, albeit lower-impact major leaguers should already be on the 2013 roster via trade or FA.

That Baker signed elsewhere implies either of the following to me: a) Ryan has seriously underestimated the price of starting pitching or every pitcher that receives "a final offer from the Twins "will immediately shop it" and sign elsewhere for slightly more, thus forcing the Twins to make "a blow-away" offer in order to sign a pitcher.

 

Good points. I'd amend "a" by stating this club has had a serious dis-ability in OVER-estimating the value of their existing starting pitching (Pavano, Blackburn, Marquis, et al)

 

In regard to Baker, I'd add: c) The club burned any lingering goodwill bridges with how they handled Big Spot Scott and his injury.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I thought we fixed the "compete with the big dogs" problem with TF? Your comment sounds like we've time-traveled back to the thrilling days of the Plasti-dome Era.

 

You're totally right. The Twins are now on par with the Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, and Cubs.

 

I don't know what I was thinking, pointing out that some teams have more money to spend on risky free agent-types.

[Mike Sixel]

1 year deal for $6MM is risky? What would not be risky?

 

And, they have $25MM more in income coming next year, cost free. And Morneau's deal ends after this year. They have plenty of money if only they want to spend it. We'll see over the next few weeks....

[Fire Dan Gladden]

If the Twins had signed Baker and Feldman, the vast majority of the comments on here would negative. Ryan would be called names, and be derided as cheap and incompetent for signing two guys who are no better than #4-5-6 starters on a losing team, and risky ones at that.

 

But, because Ryan did not sign them, he's being called names, and is being derided as cheap and incompetent for not signing two guys who are low-risk solutions as #3-4 starters.

 

Shocking.

 

That is how the TD post board roles...

[jokin]

I thought we fixed the "compete with the big dogs" problem with TF? Your comment sounds like we've time-traveled back to the thrilling days of the Plasti-dome Era.

 

You're totally right. The Twins are now on par with the Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, and Cubs.

 

I don't know what I was thinking, pointing out that some teams have more money to spend on risky free agent-types.

 

Your passive-agressive approach is obvious and a bit tedious at this point. I don't think anyone who knows the answer to 2 + 2 argues that the Twins are on a par with those aformentioned clubs and that's not the point and you know it full well.

 

The argument is about what was "conceded" that the new approach would supposedly become at the time of the agreement to the commitment to TF- and what has actually taken place in the interim- and you know that is true, as well.

 

Look, I think we can agree that the current approach of the Twins is like a Model A trying to compete in the Sprint Cup Series. I don't see Oakland, Baltimore or Tampa Bay donning the same old scarf and goggles that the Twins seem to be wearing.

[AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS]

I have played fantasy baseball since 1973 and football since 1982 sometimes in 10 different leagues. Ryan should have made the Marlin, Jays trade but maybe he couldn't, his time will come soon.

 

What was watching Charlie Chaplins movies like? Back when you were a kid did you think we would have flying cars by now?

 

Only kidding. Yes we all wish we could have got Johnson and Buerhle, lets hope hes got something up his sleeve.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 year deal for $6MM is risky? What would not be risky?

 

And, they have $25MM more in income coming next year, cost free. And Morneau's deal ends after this year. They have plenty of money if only they want to spend it. We'll see over the next few weeks....

 

I'm talking solely about 2013. There's a good chance that if Ryan goes after marginal guys for $6m per year, he wouldn't have any money left for a real starting pitcher that will be with the team for more than one season. These pitching woes aren't going away after this season and if the Twins spend a bunch of money on short-term, marginal pitchers, they just have to do this again next offseason (and the pitching staff is probably awful for a third consecutive season). If given the choice, I'll take one legitimate #2/3 guy over a handful of #4s.

[jokin]

1 year deal for $6MM is risky? What would not be risky?

 

And, they have $25MM more in income coming next year, cost free. And Morneau's deal ends after this year. They have plenty of money if only they want to spend it. We'll see over the next few weeks....

 

Does anyone think Ryan's year-end bonus for 2012 will be based on winning 3 more games than 2011?... or by saving $20M from the payroll? I'm guessing the Twins were MORE profitable this year than last, and will likely be more profitable next year than this year- after a further payroll cut.

 

Bottom line, the club is waiting for "the turn" of talent in the minors and won't spend one dime more than is necessary until then.

[jokin]

1 year deal for $6MM is risky? What would not be risky?

 

And, they have $25MM more in income coming next year, cost free. And Morneau's deal ends after this year. They have plenty of money if only they want to spend it. We'll see over the next few weeks....

 

I'm talking solely about 2013. There's a good chance that if Ryan goes after marginal guys for $6m per year, he wouldn't have any money left for a real starting pitcher that will be with the team for more than one season. These pitching woes aren't going away after this season and if the Twins spend a bunch of money on short-term, marginal pitchers, they just have to do this again next offseason (and the pitching staff is probably awful for a third consecutive season). If given the choice, I'll take one legitimate #2/3 guy over a handful of #4s.

 

As a fan, who wouldn't take that choice?

 

As a player, who would choose the Twins?

[Mike Sixel]

Well, that is a self-imposed budget limitation. There is no reason they can't sign a $6MM guy, a $12MM guy, and deal Span or Willingham for a decent prospect (packaging one of them with a decent MN prospect). They have $38MM in margin improvement next year, some of that could be spent this year, easily.

 

I actually think that is the optimistic scenario, which makes me kind of sad. But, as I posted months ago, what team has ever signed 3 legit starting pitchers in one year (not three that turned out that way, but paid that up front)?

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 year deal for $6MM is risky? What would not be risky?

 

And, they have $25MM more in income coming next year, cost free. And Morneau's deal ends after this year. They have plenty of money if only they want to spend it. We'll see over the next few weeks....

 

I'm talking solely about 2013. There's a good chance that if Ryan goes after marginal guys for $6m per year, he wouldn't have any money left for a real starting pitcher that will be with the team for more than one season. These pitching woes aren't going away after this season and if the Twins spend a bunch of money on short-term, marginal pitchers, they just have to do this again next offseason (and the pitching staff is probably awful for a third consecutive season). If given the choice, I'll take one legitimate #2/3 guy over a handful of #4s.

 

As a fan, who wouldn't take that choice?

 

As a player, who would choose the Twins?

 

All the Twins have to do is offer more money than 29 other teams.

[LaBombo]

I actually think that is the optimistic scenario, which makes me kind of sad. But, as I posted months ago, what team has ever signed 3 legit starting pitchers in one year (not three that turned out that way, but paid that up front)?

 

Even two such signings seem like a relative rarity. And it seems like an absurdly optimistic scenario for the Twins relative to their history. There's still plenty of time for Ryan to prove that wrong, but the deals handed out to Guthrie, Baker, and Feldman make that possibility appear even less likely.

[jokin]

1 year deal for $6MM is risky? What would not be risky?

 

And, they have $25MM more in income coming next year, cost free. And Morneau's deal ends after this year. They have plenty of money if only they want to spend it. We'll see over the next few weeks....

 

I'm talking solely about 2013. There's a good chance that if Ryan goes after marginal guys for $6m per year, he wouldn't have any money left for a real starting pitcher that will be with the team for more than one season. These pitching woes aren't going away after this season and if the Twins spend a bunch of money on short-term, marginal pitchers, they just have to do this again next offseason (and the pitching staff is probably awful for a third consecutive season). If given the choice, I'll take one legitimate #2/3 guy over a handful of #4s.

 

As a fan, who wouldn't take that choice?

 

As a player, who would choose the Twins?

 

All the Twins have to do is offer more money than 29 other teams.

 

Not necessarily always true. A player, and even sometimes his agent, have other factors to consider- ie, the chances for winning, leveraging of the deal down the road for more profit, outside endorsement possibilities, agent currying favor for other clients, the city the team plays in, the league the team plays in, team colors preferred by the player's wife, etc.

 

Do you deny that in the Twins current competitive state that they are likely not the first team on most FAs wish list?