Pedro Florimon vs Brian Dozier

[strumdatjag]

What deal to send Nishi back to Japan? It's been proposed, but until that happens - he's still in the mix. Like it or not!

[greengoblinrulz]

Again I disagree with this.....Dozier was a 4 yr senior (big knock on him) who was only an 8th round pick (only 2 Twins 8th rounders in past 20yrs made majors w/Dinkelman the other). Especially in terms of Twins prospects, he moved to AA in less than 2 calender yrs & majors in less than 3....nova speed for MN.

Guys like Romero & DeLos Santos were on the 40 man roster in the past...before being removed as busts...and Tosoni & Benson were major leaguers last yr.....were all highly thought of prospects that have disappointed

Guess Im just surprised that nobody has a problem with Florimon bein 6months older than Dozier....while writing him off so soon.

 

That's fine if you disagree, but your counterpoints continue to make the case against having high expectations for Dozier based on AA numbers as a 24. The players you mention have seen their status fall and their big league stints were uninspiring.

 

My points are far less a knock on Dozier than that I think way too many expectations have been laid upon him. Just because Dozier made the majors after three years doesn't mean he should have and that's the point about using his AA numbers as a 24 year old to evaluate him. They didn't tell us anything about how ready (or in this case, not ready) he was for the majors. On top of that, we're talking about 78 games in AA (hence my us of the phrase "sustained success").

 

Personally, I'd have liked to see him at AAA for a full season (not unlike what they did with Parmelee even though they botched that a couple of times) and that would have given a much better picture of where he was at. At this point, I honestly think this was, at best, a lost and wasted year of development for him. At worst, this could have ruined him for the long run.

 

Regarding the Florimon comparison. If you are going to have a SS who can't hit, it's probably better to have one that has a better arm and better range. That said, it's not really an issue of Dozier or Florimon (or Esocobar); the Twins MI situation is dire and there's not anything in the near future that looks to change that.

Actually, I agree with ya on the crux of the arguement.

If MN was gonna call him up this year after 30gms this year.....he shoulda been up from AA last Sept to audition. With the 2011 SS situation, there still was no reason not to call him up OTHER than Mn doesnt call up prospects that soon, regardless of how they play/what team considers their future to be.

In 2013, they will still be deciding on a player/position that they refused to identify in 2011

[nicksaviking]

I think I just heard the Oakland A's laughing at the Twins SS situation.

[JP3700]

I have no idea why people continue to plug in Florimon at SS while saying Escobar can't hit or not even mentioning him as an option.

 

Escobar hit as well or better than Florimon at every level in the minors while being 3 years younger when at those levels. He is also a plus defender but has a track record of being a much more consistent fielder.

 

His last season getting full time ABs was at AAA as a 22 year old where he put up a .657 OPS. Our best MI this year (Jamey Carroll) currently has a .643 OPS. Throw on top of that he's always been projected as a gold glove caliber defender. All you have to do is look at the other dugout tonight. The other Escobar has also always been a plus defender but was horrible at the plate in his first 2 full seasons posting a .614 OPS followed by a .633 OPS. They continued to let him play everyday and this year he's broken out and is now considered one of the best all around SS in the league.

 

This year was a wasted year for Escobar but he is still only going to be 24 at the start of next season which is 2 years younger than the other 2 mentioned internal options. Why shouldn't he deserve the shot to play everyday?

[Alex]

Escobar's OBP is pretty ugly even in the minors and when compared to those two and especially Carroll. Unless you're hitting a good number of home runs that makes you a pretty worthless hitter.

[snepp]

The Twins really do have an embarrassment of riches in the middle infield.

[greengoblinrulz]

I have no idea why people continue to plug in Florimon at SS while saying Escobar can't hit or not even mentioning him as an option.

 

Escobar hit as well or better than Florimon at every level in the minors while being 3 years younger when at those levels. He is also a plus defender but has a track record of being a much more consistent fielder.

 

His last season getting full time ABs was at AAA as a 22 year old where he put up a .657 OPS. Our best MI this year (Jamey Carroll) currently has a .643 OPS. Throw on top of that he's always been projected as a gold glove caliber defender. All you have to do is look at the other dugout tonight. The other Escobar has also always been a plus defender but was horrible at the plate in his first 2 full seasons posting a .614 OPS followed by a .633 OPS. They continued to let him play everyday and this year he's broken out and is now considered one of the best all around SS in the league.

 

This year was a wasted year for Escobar but he is still only going to be 24 at the start of next season which is 2 years younger than the other 2 mentioned internal options. Why shouldn't he deserve the shot to play everyday?

 

Maybe, but personally I think Escobar is NOTHING more than what Casilla is currently......no hit, good field.

[Riverbrian]

Can you anyone look at the options available and seriously consider hitting?

[JP3700]

Escobar's OBP is pretty ugly even in the minors and when compared to those two and especially Carroll. Unless you're hitting a good number of home runs that makes you a pretty worthless hitter.

 

I find it funny that on your previous posts your argument on Dozier was his age (which I agree with) yet you don't acknowledge Escobar's at the levels he was playing at. But okay let's take a look at his numbers. I'm going to compare him to our best MI this year, Jamey Carroll

 

- He never posted an OBP under .300 in any full season in the minors while being very young for every level. Carroll has a .338 OBP this year so let's make it simple and say Escobar projects to have a .308 OBP in his first full season. So Carroll gets on base 3 more times per 100 ABs than a developing 24 year old that has a chance to improve.

- At 21 between high A and AA he had 43 XBH, age 22 at AAA he had 31. In comparison Carroll has 17 XBH this season.

- Escobar is much better on defense at every aspect.

- Escobar has more speed

 

Look I'm not saying he's the answer, but from our internal options he is the best one with the highest upside. I just find it funny that no one even mentions it. Tulo, Andrus and Asdrubal aren't walking through the door so if Escobar by age 26 can develop a OPS that hovers around .700 on top of his defensive skills I would definitely take that as my everyday SS

[Alex]

 

I find it funny that on your previous posts your argument on Dozier was his age (which I agree with) yet you don't acknowledge Escobar's at the levels he was playing at. But okay let's take a look at his numbers. I'm going to compare him to our best MI this year, Jamey Carroll

 

- He never posted an OBP under .300 in any full season in the minors while being very young for every level. Carroll has a .338 OBP this year so let's make it simple and say Escobar projects to have a .308 OBP in his first full season. So Carroll gets on base 3 more times per 100 ABs than a developing 24 year old that has a chance to improve.

- At 21 between high A and AA he had 43 XBH, age 22 at AAA he had 31. In comparison Carroll has 17 XBH this season.

- Escobar is much better on defense at every aspect.

- Escobar has more speed

 

Look I'm not saying he's the answer, but from our internal options he is the best one with the highest upside. I just find it funny that no one even mentions it. Tulo, Andrus and Asdrubal aren't walking through the door so if Escobar by age 26 can develop a OPS that hovers around .700 on top of his defensive skills I would definitely take that as my everyday SS

 

If you want me to give credit to him for being a terrible hitter and couching it because he's "young," fine, but that's not the way it really works (and he's not THAT young). If a guy is going to hit well, he should hit well. When they do it against younger competition you have to take it into account, as in Dozier's case. You don't do the reverse though and say that because someone is young and not hitting, they are actually better than they are.

 

Guys who get walks in the minors tend to get even fewer in the majors. He is 23, so he certainly has a chance to improve, but it's not like he's 18 and playing in AAA and really hit well ever beyond rookie ball (OBP of 300 is pretty terrible by the way) and once you get past single A his numbers are awful (between AA and AAA, he OBP is below .300), they're not even good for a minor leaguer.

 

For his CAREER as a minor leaguer, he's a .267/.312/.348 hitter. There's no getting around how bad this is...they're not close to the numbers of an everyday player. A good comparison is Ben Revere, elite defensively at his position but a below average hitter in the bigs. Even he hit minor league pitching hard and was a comparable age to Escobar at similar levels.

 

The bottom line is none of these guys have shown anything over a significant period of time that should lead anyone to think they can be everyday options.