POTUS Donald Trump

[DaveW]

But you are correct, i can't find a rule that he can't be 1:1, that must have been something I read on FB or something....

 

so, no dinners with a woman (but a man is cool)

no late night support from women

 

Kind of would make it hard for a woman to have real power compared to men, I'd guess. But maybe Pence just doesn't work late on important things?

You are forgetting: never having a sip of alcohol without his wife present if their are other females in the room.

 

Again, unreal in 2017. Embarassaing really.

 

I work for a Canadian company (in MTL right now actually) every time I come up the biggest question is (very politely btw): "just how embarrassing is Trump/Pence for you currently?"

 

Unfortunately the answer is worse and worse every trip.

 

If pence wants to be stuck in the 1950's where he clearly views women that aren't his wife as nothing but "temptation" "sex objects" etc, that's his right, but he shouldn't be our god damned VP.

 

It sets a terrible example to all that a married man should NEVER be alone with a woman other than his wife. Just embarrassing across the board that this is our so called "leader"

 

Meanwhile trump sexually assaulated no less than a half dozen of women in his rise to power.

[DaveW]

Part A is big. Media (and society) loves a sex scandal, especially with politicians and religious leaders.

 

Leads to extreme responses that harm everyone. This hurts women, but hurts Pence too, and by extension everyone he represents.

Yeah, blame it on the media. Not the actual politicians caught red handed in sex scandals time and time and time and time again.

[drjim]

Arranging one's activities so that you are never alone in a room with a woman, certainly seems like an imposition on women, generally. It's not as if Pence jumps out a window, should a woman enter a room he is; almost certainly his staff manages that aspect for him.

 

Even if we concede that Pence's behavior is somehow an island onto itself, there's nothing noble about that behavior. The whole premise--removing temptation (a person) because of lack of self-restraint--is problematic. It would only be weakness if that temptation were chocolate, but when that temptation is gendered person--well when treat a gendered-person as an object, we call that sexism.

 

(It's okay to admit that some parts of Christian marital traditions may indeed be rooted in sexism and not nobility).

I'll grant you the last point unequivocally. It happens when there is minimal update from 2000 years ago. Need to perpetuate the patriarchy.

 

Even though I don't endorse it, I still think it goes beyond just temptation.

[drjim]

It matters to me who started and perpetuated the trend. Like I said above, the Democrats would be fools not to obstruct at this point, but its the GOP's actions that created obstructionist politics. To suggest that Democrats would have done the same is just guess work and isn't borne out in fact. It wasn't as if there was something in the water in 2008 that suddenly made all politicians seize upon obstructionism as their favorite tool, it coincides directly with tea-party, anti-gov't rhetoric that has blossomed under the GOP. The GOP lurched the right and adapted new tactics that wasn't design to simply oppose an ideology but to shut down the government all together.

Dems are generally more interested in governing and much more realistic about what is possible in government, perhaps too timid.

 

But they would have done the same thing with the Supreme Court.

[drjim]

Yeah, blame it on the media. Not the actual politicians caught red handed in sex scandals time and time and time and time again.

Exactly. You just proved Pence's motivation.

[DaveW]

Only hiring male assistants (or only male assistants after 7pm or whatever) and refusing to ever be alone with a woman (other than wife) in a closed room, dinner or refusing to have a sip of alcohol if a woman is at the same event of you (and wife isn't there)

Is not noble, it's not. It's actually something more more simple and obvious: it's sexist, textbook sexism actually.

 

Mike Pence and his ilk should not be celebrated, they should be called out for the sexists they are. Period.

 

Hiding behind a warped interpretation of religion isn't a valid or noble excuse as well.

[drjim]

Only hiring male assistants (or only male assistants after 7pm or whatever) and refusing to ever be alone with a woman (other than wife) in a closed room, dinner or refusing to have a sip of alcohol if a woman is at the same event of you (and wife isn't there)

Is not noble, it's not. It's actually something more more simple and obvious: it's sexist, textbook sexism actually.

 

Mike Pence and his ilk should not be celebrated, they should be called out for the sexists they are. Period.

 

Hiding behind a warped interpretation of religion isn't a valid or noble excuse as well.

He hires women. I don't like defending Pence, don't even really agree with him on this (much less anything else), but I am bothered by these interpretations.

[Craig Arko]

I wonder how long it will be before Pence comes out.

[DaveW]

I wonder how long it will be before Pence is outed.

Right after his next long layover in MSP?

[DaveW]

He hires women. I don't like defending Pence, don't even really agree with him on this (much less anything else), but I am bothered by these interpretations.

He hires them yes, but won't allow them to be alone with him after "9-5"

 

Again, sexism. Plain. And. Simple.

 

Then again, that's Pences generation, the same generation that elected trump. The same generation (boomers) that need to just hurry up and die off(the sexist, homophobic, racist ones) so all subsequent generations can be better off.

[stringer bell]

 

Dems are generally more interested in governing and much more realistic about what is possible in government, perhaps too timid.

But they would have done the same thing with the Supreme Court.

Are you saying they would have failed to give a Republican nominee to the Supreme Court even so much as a hearing? I don't believe that is true. I also believe that if a moderate nominee were put forward, Democrats would approve the nomination.

[drjim]

Are you saying they would have failed to give a Republican nominee to the Supreme Court even so much as a hearing? I don't believe that is true. I also believe that if a moderate nominee were put forward, Democrats would approve the nomination.

Absolutely, if they had any sense.

[drjim]

So this upcoming war in Syria should be a doozy.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Dems are generally more interested in governing and much more realistic about what is possible in government, perhaps too timid.

But they would have done the same thing with the Supreme Court.

I think that's a bold claim.  Sitting on Supreme Court pick for an entire year was unprecedented.   The only basis for saying that Dems would have done the same thing is a throw-away hypothetical by Biden.  The Dems would have paid a higher price for such behavior, than the GOP does--that's part of the problem with equating their actions, the political realities that allow each party to exist are not mirror images.  

[Craig Arko]

So this upcoming war in Syria should be a doozy.

That's an interesting way to look at suffering and death.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Even though I don't endorse it, I still think it goes beyond just temptation.

That might be true, but I think sussing out the non-awful nuance here tends to diminish the problematic effect of Pence's practices. 

 

At best Pence's behavior can be seen as some kind of dated decorum that guards against the appearance of impropriety, but decorum has often functioned to subjugate women even if shrouded in nobility/chivalry--isn't that the case here?

[PseudoSABR]

 

So this upcoming war in Syria should be a doozy.

I hate this.  My cynicism is budding into conspiracy theory.   Trumps eventual punitive attack will suck out the air of the real gravity of Nunes and Banon stepping down from their respective National Security/Intelligence roles. 

[drjim]

I hate this. My cynicism is budding into conspiracy theory. Trumps eventual punitive attack will suck out the air of the real gravity of Nunes and Banon stepping down from their respective National Security/Intelligence roles.

It's horrific. War as diversion.

[drjim]

That might be true, but I think sussing out the non-awful nuance here tends to diminish the problematic effect of Pence's practices.

 

At best Pence's behavior can be seen as some kind of dated decorum that guards against the appearance of impropriety, but decorum has often functioned to subjugate women even if shrouded in nobility/chivalry--isn't that the case here?

It is problematic, I want to make that clear. It is unfair to professional women, it deprives Pence of talented council, and it harms the people he represents.

 

It really does flow from a bad spot in conservative Christian culture that has caused great harm to so many women for so long, including many friends of mine. It is very dated, but no less destructive.

 

I do think over the top dismissals will lead to retrenchment, that does no one any good.

[drjim]

That's an interesting way to look at suffering and death.

It's horrific. I was trying to bring a small amount of levity to a terrible situation.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Spitballing here, but rather than worrying so much about the source of the opposing political philosophy, perhaps the better solution is to bring forth an alternative that is attractive enough to win the next election.

At this point Doc, I don't really care anymore. Democrats are as guilty with the superstitious BS as the Republicans, but the Republicans take it to another level.

 

I want the head of this monster cut off and then it's diseased blood and guts will pour into and consume our country, states, towns, cities. We need to suffer for our ignorance and failure to advance as a society. I am prepared to suffer and I am sure I will - not by my choice.

 

The coupling of technology with uneducated people who have no access to a valid education and no idea of the world in which we live fueled this mess, The Macro mess was created by our politicians and by big business intentionally. The latter simply needs to be neutralized.

 

I don't know how that happens, it probably won't. I think the greater amount of citizens in this country would need to start a revolution of some kind. It does not need to be militaristic, because as we have witnessed, Russia waged a cyber war on our 2016 election season and it was fairly successful.

[drjim]

I think that's a bold claim. Sitting on Supreme Court pick for an entire year was unprecedented. The only basis for saying that Dems would have done the same thing is a throw-away hypothetical by Biden. The Dems would have paid a higher price for such behavior, than the GOP does--that's part of the problem with equating their actions, the political realities that allow each party to exist are not mirror images.

If the Dems had the Senate and let a Republican President fill the seat of a liberal justice, that would have been political malpractice that even Democrats don't seem capable of.

[DaveW]

 

It really does flow from a bad spot in conservative Christian culture that has caused great harm to so many women for so long, including many friends of mine. It is very dated, but no less destructive.

 

Again, the easier and more accurate description is simply and easily: sexism. It's sexism. Anyone that tries to hide behind their religion for their sexism (or other bigotry) are nothing more than cowards who make the rest of Christians look bad, oh! and they are sexist.

-signed, a Catholic born in the Midwest. 

[drjim]

At this point Doc, I don't really care anymore. Democrats are as guilty with the superstitious BS as the Republicans, but the Republicans take it to another level.

 

I want the head of this monster cut off and then it's diseased blood and guts will pour into and consume our country, states, towns, cities. We need to suffer for our ignorance and failure to advance as a society. I am prepared to suffer and I am sure I will - not by my choice.

 

The coupling of technology with uneducated people who have no access to a valid education and no idea of the world in which we live fueled this mess, The Macro mess was created by our politicians and by big business intentionally. The latter simply needs to be neutralized.

 

I don't know how that happens, it probably won't. I think the greater amount of citizens in this country would need to start a revolution of some kind. It does not need to be militaristic, because as we have witnessed, Russia waged a cyber war on our 2016 election season and it was fairly successful.

Sounds very France late 1780s of you.

 

It's a big and diverse world with people who think all kinds of things. Embrace it.

 

I do share some of your fears of advancing technology though. But I suspect that's kind of the human condition.

[PseudoSABR]

 

If the Dems had the Senate and let a Republican President fill the seat of a liberal justice, that would have been political malpractice that even Democrats don't seem capable of.

In that scenario the Dems could have fillibustered any pick without the potential for the GOP to change the rules (as they wouldn't have the majority).  The thing that you're ignoring is that Obama offered a moderate judge who really had no discernible ideology in Garland.   The Democrats have been willing to compromise for the decades, even recently (i.e. Obamacare is a compromise), but given that the GOP has resorted to casting compromise as weakness; it is only now that the Dems need to realize the political reality and give some turn-about to the Republicans.  It's an unfortunate race to the bottom, but at least in my mind, the fault belongs with the tea party, and isn't equally shared by the Democrats. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

He hires them yes, but won't allow them to be alone with him after "9-5"

Again, sexism. Plain. And. Simple.

Then again, that's Pences generation, the same generation that elected trump. The same generation (boomers) that need to just hurry up and die off(the sexist, homophobic, racist ones) so all subsequent generations can be better off.

 

I think this kind of stuff is almost as silly as what Pence does.

 

Look, his little rules are pretty silly.   But the "why" here matters a lot.  This isn't all that different from the idea of "I won't go in that neighborhood after 11"

 

Well, is it because there are no street lights?  Is it because of high rates of criminality?  Is it too far?  Or is it because black people live there?

 

Your reasons can range from benign to understandable to downright horrific.  We don't know completely his reasons why.  If it's just his silly way of trying to be noble, I don't think it's worth this degree of condemnation.

 

Laughter?  Sure.  Condemnation?  Nah, he's given us far better ammo for that.

[drjim]

In that scenario the Dems could have fillibustered any pick without the potential for the GOP to change the rules (as they wouldn't have the majority). The thing that you're ignoring is that Obama offered a moderate judge who really had no discernible ideology in Garland. The Democrats have been willing to compromise for the decades, even recently (i.e. Obamacare is a compromise), but given that the GOP has resorted to casting compromise as weakness; it is only now that the Dems need to realize the political reality and give some turn-about to the Republicans. It's an unfortunate race to the bottom, but at least in my mind, the fault belongs with the tea party, and isn't equally shared by the Democrats.

Obama offered Garland because he had no leverage. He thought showing obstructionism would be beneficial for Dems in the elections. Turns out people didn't really care.

[DaveW]

 

  This isn't all that different from the idea of "I won't go in that neighborhood after 11"

 

 

It's actually completely different.  But keep playing both sides of the fence and never offer a solution as usual Lev. 15 years of this "blame everyone" Never change

[DaveW]

Well, we bombed Syria.
Likely killed a bunch of civilians as well.

 

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Sounds very France late 1780s of you.

It's a big and diverse world with people who think all kinds of things. Embrace it.

I do share some of your fears of advancing technology though. But I suspect that's kind of the human condition.

I only hope that the U.S.A.'s Napoleon is not Trump at the end of it all.

It is a big and diverse world - agreed, but my concern is for our country at the present, let's fix it here.

Personally, I can accept the peoples' superstitious and non sensible beliefs. I was raised a Lutheran, it did not take. It should not hold any weight in this countries law. I do not embrace it.

I am sure you see the ridiculousness of it all in our government and the backwards de-evolutionary steps our society is taking because of the intentional mess they have made.

If we fix this country, it will be in a better position to help out the poor, the uneducated, and maybe other countries without a profit motivation.