Trevor May pulled after 3 innings

[drjim]

I'm curious though....why does one flaw like that hold back our pitchers but not our hitters? I'm not necessarily saying this is a problem, but Arcia is up and his strikeout rates have always been an issue. Hicks' splits have always been an issue and that didn't stop us from sinking hundreds of futile at-bats into him. I could mention Florimon, Pinto's defense, etc. It just seems that if there is an aspect of a hitter's game askew we don't seem to mind calling them up.

 

But one thing with a pitcher and we drag our feet. Why the difference?

 

I say sample size issue with recency bias.

[jokin]

Rochester SP Strike%

 

May 63.9%

Pino 63.9%

Meyer 62.2%

Darnell 61.7%

Johnson 61.2%

 

Meyer 10.1% K/9 (leads the International League)

Meyer 26.2% K% (leads the International League)

http://minorleaguecentral.com/leaderboard?lid[]=117&y=2014&split=200&amod=%3C=&age=99&time=60&q=&ymod==&dyear=99&rmod==&round=99&type=pitcher&type=pitcher&table=8

 

Rochester SP LD%

 

Pino 12.8% (ranks # 3 in IL)

Meyer 13.4% (ranks # 4 in IL)

Darnell 16.5%

Johnson 18.0%

May 19.1%

 

Infield FB%

 

Pino 12.2% (ranks # 2 in IL)

Meyer 11.3% (ranks #3 in IL)

May 8.6%

Johnson 6.7%

Darnell 5.3%

[Brock Beauchamp]

I hope you're wrong and players aren't being called up just to plug gaps whether they are ready or not. Seems like a poor way to develop guys.

 

For the record, I'm honestly curious what people think on that. I'm not bashing the FO, I just don't understand that stark contrast in handling of prospects.

 

I think it has a lot to do with perception.

 

A struggling pitcher will lose the game.

 

A struggling hitter will lose games, but he probably won't lose you the game.

 

It's much easier to quantify wins and losses behind a starting pitcher. Bad hitters just bleed you to death.

[TheLeviathan]

I say sample size issue with recency bias.

 

Sure it's a small sample size, who is saying otherwise? That's a total dodge of a legit question. And I'm being very nice about how I feel about this response.

 

Why are Meyer's expectations to get promoted harsher than Arcia's? Arcia's K rate is just as troubling for his success at this level as Meyer's tendency to throw strikes. Why is one kept down but the other brought up?

 

I think Brock is probably on to it, the spotlight is on pitchers for one whole game and their flaws more apparent. Hitter mistakes tend to bleed out into the rest of the game more easily forgotten.

[jokin]

Rochester SP LD%

 

Pino 12.8% (ranks # 3 in IL)

Meyer 13.4% (ranks # 4 in IL)

Darnell 16.5%

Johnson 18.0%

May 19.1%

 

Infield FB%

 

Pino 12.2% (ranks # 2 in IL)

Meyer 11.3% (ranks #3 in IL)

May 8.6%

Johnson 6.7%

Darnell 5.3%

 

Rochester SP GB%

 

Johnson 47.7%

Meyer 45.3%

Darnell 45.2%

May 35.9%

Pino 33.1 % (4th worst in IL)

 

Rochester FB%

 

Johnson 22.6%

Meyer 25.9 %

Darnell 27.7%

May 34.1%

Pino 39.0% (Worst in IL)

[drjim]

Sure it's a small sample size, who is saying otherwise? That's a total dodge of a legit question. And I'm being very nice about how I feel about this response.

 

Why are Meyer's expectations to get promoted harsher than Arcia's? Arcia's K rate is just as troubling for his success at this level as Meyer's tendency to throw strikes. Why is one kept down but the other brought up?

 

I think Brock is probably on to it, the spotlight is on pitchers for one whole game and their flaws more apparent. Hitter mistakes tend to bleed out into the rest of the game more easily forgotten.

 

You call it a dodge, I call it reality. You are overstating a trend based on actions of the last year.

 

I don't think Meyer is being held down because of inability to throw strikes. Fastball command and sharpening his change up. I also suspect innings concerns are playing a part.

[jokin]

You call it a dodge, I call it reality. You are overstating a trend based on actions of the last year.

 

I don't think Meyer is being held down because of inability to throw strikes. Fastball command and sharpening his change up. I also suspect innings concerns are playing a part.

 

By which, the enclosed statistics suggest he should be getting a good chunk of his limited innings at a higher level than AAA.

[TheLeviathan]

Fastball command and sharpening his change up. I also suspect innings concerns are playing a part.

 

This doesn't answer my question, just changes the comparison of weaknesses. If you aren't interested in the conversation, you don't need to participate.

[bird]

Judging how the Twins continue to trot Johnson and Pino out start after start well be lucky to see May in September. I can't believe they'd hold back his deput until he's pushing 25 years old.

 

It's very ironic that, given how most posters here form their opinions about who deserves to be promoted and when on a review of the stats that Johnson and Pino are kind of given short shrift. They aren't parading out a couple of misfits, and "start after start" is a little strong here. May and Meyer's turns will come.

[drjim]

This doesn't answer my question, just changes the comparison of weaknesses. If you aren't interested in the conversation, you don't need to participate.

 

Maybe the better response is that you were asking the wrong questions.

[bird]

By which, the enclosed statistics suggest he should be getting a good chunk of his limited innings at a higher level than AAA.

 

One man's opinion, but I think the only reason they've promoted a few hitters such as Santana and Arcia and let them have a baptism by fire is because they decided they represented the best alternatives.

 

Similarly, perhaps in the Twin's mind, Pino, Johnson and Darnell have represented the best alternative ( a decision many of us here disagree with), especially in light of injuries or specific items being worked on in their games. It's not all decided strictly on statistics.

[bird]

By which, the enclosed statistics suggest he should be getting a good chunk of his limited innings at a higher level than AAA.

 

Not trying to be combative here, but I'm seriously wondering what Pino's and Johnson's statistics suggest. Something much different?

[TheLeviathan]

Maybe the better response is that you were asking the wrong questions.

 

Like what? Doesn't it seem lately like we've been much nit-pickier about readiness with our pitchers? Maybe that's a league-wide thing with injury concerns, I'm not sure. But you can't tell me Arcia came up without flaws and you definitely can't with Hicks. So why is it so much harder for the pitchers to be "ready" even as they post great numbers?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'm curious though....why does one flaw like that hold back our pitchers but not our hitters? I'm not necessarily saying this is a problem, but Arcia is up and his strikeout rates have always been an issue. Hicks' splits have always been an issue and that didn't stop us from sinking hundreds of futile at-bats into him. I could mention Florimon, Pinto's defense, etc. It just seems that if there is an aspect of a hitter's game askew we don't seem to mind calling them up.

 

But one thing with a pitcher and we drag our feet. Why the difference?

It's not like this has been a good rotation

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Like what? Doesn't it seem lately like we've been much nit-pickier about readiness with our pitchers? Maybe that's a league-wide thing with injury concerns, I'm not sure. But you can't tell me Arcia came up without flaws and you definitely can't with Hicks. So why is it so much harder for the pitchers to be "ready" even as they post great numbers?

Maybe it's not statistical

[TheLeviathan]

Maybe it's not statistical

 

Well you could argue that's true about Pinto and he still got the callup with known deficiencies in his game. (A deficiency this team is usually very focused on avoiding)

[jokin]

Not trying to be combative here, but I'm seriously wondering what Pino's and Johnson's statistics suggest. Something much different?

 

Pino's suggest a large amount of luck, especially as his "good" stats are padded by the fact that 7 of his 15 appearances in Rochester were in relief. Johnson has had a slightly smaller amount of luck. But the biggest suggestion about each is the fact that they are career AA/AAA minor league journeyman nearly at or over the wrong side of 30, one way or another, what they are producing this year is not likely too sustainable at the major league level, whereas in the case of the two 24 year old alternatives, much more likely that they will only get better.

[jokin]

One man's opinion, but I think the only reason they've promoted a few hitters such as Santana and Arcia and let them have a baptism by fire is because they decided they represented the best alternatives.

 

Similarly, perhaps in the Twin's mind, Pino, Johnson and Darnell have represented the best alternative ( a decision many of us here disagree with), especially in light of injuries or specific items being worked on in their games. It's not all decided strictly on statistics.

 

I think both May and Meyer have demonstrated a specific level of competence relative to their almost-all-much-older AAA peers, enough that they would have benefited by working on those specific items at the major league level.

[John Bonnes]

One man's opinion, but I think the only reason they've promoted a few hitters such as Santana and Arcia and let them have a baptism by fire is because they decided they represented the best alternatives.

 

Similarly, perhaps in the Twin's mind, Pino, Johnson and Darnell have represented the best alternative ( a decision many of us here disagree with), especially in light of injuries or specific items being worked on in their games. It's not all decided strictly on statistics.

 

I think both May and Meyer have demonstrated a specific level of competence relative to their almost-all-much-older AAA peers, enough that they would have benefited by working on those specific items at the major league level.

 

I think both are reasonable positions. Certainly, if you believe Terry Ryan at face value, he says that they believe that Meyer and May both have some thing on which to work. Accepting this at face value seems to be fair, because I can't think of any nefarious reason to claim otherwise. It's not like they haven't reached the arbitration deadline.

 

There must be a reason here, and I don't think it's "because Terry Ryan is perpetually clueless," because I think he's amply demonstrated otherwise. Then, to me, the question is: "Why?" Perhaps there is something they feel makes them unready, either on or off the field. Maybe they're worried about them tiring by pitching through September. Maybe they like the instruction better at AAA? Maybe....I don't know. I'd be interested in alternate theories or paradigms people have.

[TheLeviathan]

Accepting this at face value seems to be fair, because I can't think of any nefarious reason to claim otherwise.

 

Right, I don't think the Twins are lying that they think these guys are unready in some capacity. I'm sure they believe that for some reason or another. I'm also quite sure this team is aware that Santana isn't ready. Or that Arcia wasn't ready. Or that Hicks wasn't ready. (All of which in some capacity or another)

 

And shouldn't their readiness matter more than the "best alternative"? I sure hope it would. I also think that argument is hard to completely agree with when the team has basically opened the way for a guy like Hicks - actively clearing the roster to give an opportunity to a guy that had far more glaring signs of "unready" than either of these two arms. He only became the best alternative after deliberate moves by the team.

 

It's just perplexing how unbalanced this phenomenon has been for the Twins the last few years.

[drjim]

I still think the debate is all about Meyer.

 

I strongly believe May would be up if he didn't get hurt. Pino got the spot start because of the urgency/timing of the need, did well so he got the second start. Before Pino's third start May got hurt.

 

May still needs another start or two before he is up to get the pitch count. If May is not up by next Saturday (within 5 days of the off day Monday) then in my mind there will finally be validity to these complaints.

[TheLeviathan]

I still think the debate is all about Meyer.

 

Look, there is a discussion happening. You don't have to try to force it to be some overdone talking point when it's not.

 

I totally understand why May isn't up, but his recent injury has zero bearing on the question. Calling up May at the beginning of the year would've been less crazy than Danny Santana in CF, yet here we are with May pitching great and still down there in June and Santana running around CF from basically the onset of the season.

 

How can "readiness" be SO different for position specs vs. pitchers? Or maybe better yet, why are the Twins so willing to look past readiness for position specs and not pitchers?

[jokin]

I think both are reasonable positions. Certainly, if you believe Terry Ryan at face value, he says that they believe that Meyer and May both have some thing on which to work. Accepting this at face value seems to be fair, because I can't think of any nefarious reason to claim otherwise. It's not like they haven't reached the arbitration deadline.

 

There must be a reason here, and I don't think it's "because Terry Ryan is perpetually clueless," because I think he's amply demonstrated otherwise. Then, to me, the question is: "Why?"

 

Well, the concern about Meyer's wildness was certainly eased tonight. 6 IP, 0 ER, 0 BB, 8 K and only 5 singles. Efficient 86 pitches, with 7 ground outs to 2 fly outs. I'm not sure what more needs to be asked from him at this level- he's now over 101 innings, not many left to work with.

[drjim]

Last 5 starts:

 

30 ip, 18 h, 5 r, 32 k, 13 bb

 

Hard to argue too much with that.

[Otto von Ballpark]

It's very ironic that, given how most posters here form their opinions about who deserves to be promoted and when on a review of the stats that Johnson and Pino are kind of given short shrift. They aren't parading out a couple of misfits, and "start after start" is a little strong here. May and Meyer's turns will come.

 

No specific offense to Johnson and Pino, but 29 and 30 year old rookies are pretty much the definition of MLB "misfits" (in "the island of misfit toys" sense?).

[launchingthrees]

Meyer doesn't throw many strikes?

 

This is not true even a little bit. Where are you getting this from?

 

Edit: I see jokin did the work.