KirbyDome89

You extrapolated a single instance of an individual blowing through a 100K signing bonus to "The thing that struck me was that it seems like a lot of these MiLB players make pretty poor decisions on their finances," and then made the claim that financial illiteracy was a societal issue, i.e. not baseball's problem. Your argument is that because young adults might not have their finances completely dialed in, it's therefore justifiable for MLB to underpay them by a ridiculous amount. I mean..... When you're forced to bunk 2+ to a room or keep the cost of every meal you consume to $5, just so you can put a couple hundred into savings each month, you're living the definition of check to check.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Who is arguing that they shouldn't make smart moves?

They still finished 7 games below .500 from June 1st through yesterday. I don't see moving from a 100+ loss pace to one in the high 80s as a silver lining. They were just as bad in June, and worse in July. They sunk themselves in April & May, but the poor play didn't stop there.

Wouldn't it be more of a slap in the face to go out of your way to call this a "reset," not a rebuild, and then sign a bunch of fliers to fill out an already shaky pitching staff for a season where you've said the expectation is to compete?

How did we get from a single player blowing through a signing bonus to "MiLB players' financial illiteracy is a societal problem?" 25K annually is literally living check to check. You don't budget, you cross your fingers and hope an emergency doesn't come up because you almost certainly can't afford to cover it. The quality of life is being totally ignored here.

It's a fan site. We're all formulating opinions based on what we see/read. We all understand we aren't privy to info that the FO is. Every argument made on this forum is couched within that context. "The FO knows more than us," is a sidestep. The guy barely hit above .200 in that AAA stint in August. I think it's reach to say that the inconsistency with the major league team was what turned him around. Sure, sometimes we do, and that's fine, but a line drive and a bloop single aren't the same. We can look beyond just the results here.

That's not really disputing the opportunity cost of benching Gordon or the lack of one for prioritizing him over guys that won't be here next year. You're playing the results and and invoking my least favorite meta argument of all time; "the FO knows more than us."

Kenta had an 11 game stretch, starting in mid June up to the game he was injured, where he looked exactly like the pitcher most assumed he would be. If you want to assign his rough 5-6 game stretch in May/early June to injury, fine, but that's digging into the weeds of how often players are taking the field at 100%, and it's a discussion outside of the point I'm making. Pineda skipped a single start in May, went on the IL in mid June, and was back pitching by early July. At any given time from opening day through the trade deadline this team had 4 or all five of the opening day rotation members available to pitch assuming Shoemaker wouldn't have completely imploded. We see the depth very differently. Dobnak was coming off a year in which he was demoted, and he clearly was first in line to get starts when/if needed. He was flat out terrible, and I'm soooo tired of the usage defense. Thorpe wasn't good in either '19 or '20 with the Twins; Idk what the expectation was there. Smeltzer is the WC, but damn, if that's your first line of defense for supplementing the rotation.....yikes. The kids weren't likely to be a factor until midseason at the earliest, and by then the damage was done. I'm not blaming the FO for injuries either, they obviously have zero control there. I'm saying that tallying them up in late in September isn't painting an accurate picture.

So they needed to play him sporadically and then send him down to prep him for a larger innings load in September? They couldn't cut into innings for Astudillo, Simmons, or Cave? They couldn't find room for Gordon on the field? What's the meta arugment?

Damn.....again

All the more to give him a shot at consistent playing time right? Sure, you can play the results, but I'm arguing that the process is more important, and that's where the criticism lies.

If he injured in St. Paul after being optioned in August he very well may have been a roster casualty. Just because they eventually made the right call doesn't mean there wasn't an opportunity cost for continuing to sink innings into guys with zero value.

Ninja'd

How many of those games did he come in late and get 1 or 0 PAs? If they play him and he sucks they lose nothing. Maybe they gain draft position; at minimum they have a better idea of whether or not he deserves a 40 man spot. There's literally no downside. Do we need to pretend that he wasn't being used inconsistently/sporadically, or that priority wasn't being given to guys that have no value moving forward in a lost season? The latter is why an element of blame exists.

Gordon is on pace to nearly double his PAs in September vs July or August. Was the trio of Simmons/Astudillo/Cave just too vital for the future? Were there not enough PAs between 3 IF spots and all 3 OF spots to get on the field consistently for a team 15+ GB in the division? What's the argument here? If you can pick up another team's cast off, a team who also isn't in a position to be giving up usable arms, with the spin of pedigree/previous draft position, then it shouldn't take the calendar flipping to September for Gordon to get consistent playing time.

Beau Burrows had every opportunity to prove he wasn't a major league pitcher for the reasons in bold. I don't understand the hesitation with internal options that are likely on the roster "bubble."

Nobody is asking them to sign 15 ML starters. "In the minors," is a pretty catch all term here, hence the reason I listed Duran and Balazovic apart from the other group. I'll ask again, do you see the fortunes of this team being any different if the Thorpe/Dobnak/Smeltzer trio stayed fully healthy? Those were the guys that had the first crack at stepping into the rotation. I do believe the hope was that one or both of Duran & Balazovic could provide some relief towards the end of the season. Duran getting hurt was a bummer; other than service time Idk why Balazovic isn't getting some major league innings.

Canterino split time between rookie and A ball in '19, same with Winder. I'm glad Jax and Barnes got a shot; after watching them I don't think either is a guy you want in a major league rotation. Maybe they have futures in the pen. Ober has been a somewhat pleasant surprise, but he dealt with injuries and threw limited innings in both '18 and '19. I really doubt the expectation was any of the above players would step into a significant rotation role if/when Happ or Shoemaker pitched their way out, or injuries occurred. I can buy that Duran and maybe Balazovic were in the plans. Balazovic has been healthy since early June and hasn't been called up; not sure if that means anything. Duran wasn't all that impressive above A ball in '19 but he was the closest thing they had entering the season. If there was an arm or two that looked ready at the end of '19 then I can see the argument for banking on that player(s) but was that the case? It's fair to question whether or not it was prudent to rely on the above arms coming off a year in which none of them pitched. Maeda missed a few weeks in May-June, then pitched into late August before getting the knife. The season was well over by that time. Pineda was on a similar track, sans the knife, and his extended time away didn't overlap with Maeda's. His most recent IL stint also occurred after the team was clearly out of contention and sold assets. Berrios was his usual healthy/productive self. Neither Happ or Shoemaker were hurt, they were just terrible. Dobnak was hurt after being awful in whichever role he was used. Thorpe has never had major league success, and wasn't all that impressive at AAA in '19 or in limited action with the Twins in '20. I guess I'll give you Smeltzer and hope '20 was an aberration. If this trio hadn't been injured, do you think the team would be in a different position right now? I don't. I understand that perfect options don't exist, and that's true even for the 5 rotation spots, but I think the plan in and of itself was incredibly shaky. That to me, is on this FO. Poor performance and a lack of quality options sunk this team.

I don't think the Twins owe other AL East opponents, or any team for that matter, anything. I doubt the Yankees, TB, or the Jays were on the phone bitching when Astudillo threw an inning against Boston a month ago. Also, based on some of the guys they've handed major league playing time to this season, I don't know if I'd buy the "upholding the integrity of competition," argument from the Twins side. Getting Maggi and AB or at least into a game defensively wouldn't have been all that hard. I'd stop short of calling it classless or clueless, but it's a bad look if you're going to celebrate his call up.

If they're trying to swing a trade for a front end arm, Arraez isn't going to be the headliner. If they're making a move for a mid-back end type, I think a Larnach package can get that done. Maybe I'm higher on him than you are?

I'd much rather keep Arraez over Gordon for a utility role. Trade from the corner OFer/1B/DH depth (excluding Kirilloff) for pitching.

179 IP with an xFIP of 3.99 and 2.7 fWAR doesn't meet the standard for "decent?" It's nearly identical to what he posted in '15. I guess define "acceptable MLB starter going forward," because I just don't believe that after what he did in '14 and '15, including the '16 dud plus a shoulder injury, that entering '17 he was no longer viewed as capable of starting MLB games; that feels like rewriting history. Questioning the Jekyll and Hyde act is a far cry from hoping 100 combined innings translates into two rotation spots locked down next year.

Gibson also threw almost 400 innings of decent ball in '14 & '15. He was always frustrating for me to watch, and I'm far from a member of the fan club, but I don't believe he was viewed as a fringe pitcher coming into '17. Gant is outperforming his peripherals by a considerable margin this season. Idk if ERA+ is the metric I'd rely on, but I guess you can hope the trend continues and pencil him in. Dobnak has just over 125 career innings. He posted an ERA+ of 288 over his first 28ish innings. I'm not sure his career ERA+ means much of anything.

Gibson and Santana weren't major league pitchers?

That wasn't what "bait," was in reference to. I'd stop short of calling it just fine but I think having, at minimum, 2 capable major league starters puts that group ahead of where we're currently at.