KirbyDome89

Likewise, and no apologies necessary. If I came across as a little ruthless, it was some pent up frustration, a vast majority of which had nothing to do with you. I get the linkage, but I felt the distinction was clear, yet continually disregarded. You're right, and I've been here long enough to know better than to take the bait. Best not to feed them as they say. I guess I underestimated the controversial nature of what I thought was a pretty straight forward take. That, or I'm just a glutton for punishment.

A rhetorical device? We agree, Ryan didn't leave much as far as pitching goes. I'm not, and haven't held up the '17 staff as some kind of talent laden group that TR gifted this FO. I think that the current staff is in worse shape then what we saw starting '17. I understand there are prospects on the horizon, and (hopefully) an offseason spending prior to the first pitch in '22, but I don't feel the pitching staff, as it currently exists, is acceptable 5 years into this job. That's the criticism; the staff wasn't good to begin with, and they've fallen below that level in my view. Idk if you read the dear Cap'n's response to my general post, and were just so triggered that you needed to get in on this perceived pro TR pipeline argument, but I've made it clear that wasn't my stance. I even pointed out, in my OP, that the TR vs. current FO debate shouldn't be the focus. This nonsense about me "misdirecting what other's have said," or "debating in poor form," can gtfo, particularly when my OP wasn't in direct response to any specific poster. If you feel like my criticism is in the margins, or so obvious that it doesn't merit attention, then ignore it. "The Twins were not left with much talent. What was done to get to 2019 and 2020's significant improvement is owed largely to savvy moves that dramatically improved the team by this FO." I think there is a decent number of posters who feel this FO "made," a lot of these position players too. I'm not saying you share that sentiment, and I wasn't aware you'd expressed otherwise previous times. Looks like we're also in agreement about inherited positional talent. Why did I bring up the position players? The statement I quoted seemed rather general and not specifically pointed towards pitching. Perhaps my OP was viewed in a similarly as far as overall talent is concerned.

No, my is annoyance is with the smarmy meme. I imagine you knew that though. The argument creation I mentioned is your continued effort, even now, to twist my general post into some pro TR pitching pipeline defense. I fail to see where goalposts have been moved... I honestly don't know how to make this any more clear. I don't think they inherited a great pitching situation. At all. I do think the current staff is worse than what they began '17 following their first offseason. That's the problem. You see that right? Of the three (Gant, Farrell, and Coulmbe,) Gant leads the group with 26 IPs. Two, or even all three of them might not even be on the roster next year. I mean, c'mon. Thielbar has had a nice comeback, no doubt. Idk where you're going with Cody Stashak; he didn't even debut until '19 and he's thrown 15.2 innings this year. Ok so we'll continue the hyperbole. Point to the post that says players are in no way impacted by coaching or analytics. You're making just as much of an assumption, that FO intervention is the reason for the success we've seen from guys like Berrios or Rogers. Again, cherry picking the "success," stories without mention of the failures isn't a conversation worth having. As far as 2021 goes, I will 100% secede the Maeda and Rogers injuries. You can have Pineda too, though I'll still contend we've watched a decline that isn't due solely to injury. Dobnak was demoted in a shortened season last year, and was awful prior to his injury this year. I don't want to hear the usage excuse either. I'm not putting Smeltzer or Thorpe anywhere close to impact injury status. Losing the prospects hurt, probably more from a viewing/excitement standpoint, but if the plan was to have Duran or Winder step in and throw serious innings down the stretch then yikes.

My OP was in response to the thread topic. Yes, I see the current staff as worse than what the FO started with in '17, and to me that's an indictment of their philosophy/execution when it comes to arms. I really don't think that's debatable but here we are. If we're staying inside reality then let's acknowledge the starting hand. The pitching wasn't in good shape, no doubt. The issue is we're 5 years deep and in my view it's in worse shape. That isn't difficult ground to secede. I don't know why you're conflating my post with the pre-'16 Twins. The bulk of '19 and '20 is due to savvy FO moves? Seriously? 6 out of the 9 position players starting playoff games in '19 were inherited. 11 out of the 21 innings that series were covered by arms they inherited. Yeah, Cruz was a great addition. I was a fan of the Marwin signing even though it was slightly disappointing. Odorizzi had a career year, and Pineda was pretty good before he was suspended. They were able to piece together a back end of the bullpen that was successful, but the May/Duffey/Rogers trio carried that group. That doesn't equate to being a significant amount of the improvement for me.

No, my argument is pretty pointed so I don't think angst is an app description. Annoyance is more accurate, but I suppose that was the reaction you intended to elicit, so congrats, you win the internet. Why is this hard? It's about the staff this FO rolled out to begin their tenure vs right now. I don't care how many awful TR staffs you lump into this meaningless league average argument. They're straight up lists. Nothing more. Why would I bang the drum for Santiago or Colon? It's a snapshot of where this team is/was at each moment. Remove Berrios from the sure fire major leaguer list and say they only had 2 in the '17 rotation, but that's still 2 more than they currently have. All three of the "good not great," bullpen arms would've been the best arm the current pen has. For those of you who don't believe this FO inherited any talent it should be even less excusable that the current group doesn't stack up. Again, sell me on the future. Who knows maybe some of the wishful thinking comes to fruition; I hope it does. They clearly weren't gifted a championship, and I haven't seen a single post that suggests they were. We can probably put the hyperbolic statements to bed right? Selectively choosing where to attribute developmental success isn't a road worth traveling.

Ok, but that's walking it back a bit. Not giving up on a guy and calling him a huge success are vastly different. I'm not advocating for the Twins to cut him right now either, but we certainly see his first 50ish innings vs his last 50ish+ innings differently, including usage. Agreed, if one becomes even serviceable it's a win; I'm just not nearly as willing to entertain the comparisons put forward right now.

Jax and Ober are Plesac and Civale? Dobnak, who was demoted in a 60 game season last year and has been nothing short of awful this entire year is a huge success of the pitching pipeline? The time missed has been a cause for injuries without question? What? Can't we at least be honest about the current state of things? There's looking at things as glass half full and then there's blurring reality...

Hmmm, well lets look at what I said, and not the argument you're attempting to create. "The fact we're already likely looking at a lost season in '22." Do you think they're competing next year? I don't.... "And the pitching staff is in worse shape than when this FO took over." 2017 following their first offseason: Starters: Santana, Gibson, Berrios, Mejia, Santiago, Colon was added in late July Bullpen: Pressly, Rogers, Duffey, Belisle, Kintzler Current Day: Starters: Ober? Ryan? Bullpen: Duffey, Jax? Thielbar? Alcala? Gant? Throw in the Rogers injury There isn't a single sure fire major league pitcher in the rotation right now. They have guys that'll get starts, and the hope is they'll become somebody that can slide in (likely to the back end), but right now it's nothing but question marks. Pineda looks nearly cooked, but you can throw out his and Maeda's injury as uncontrollable and it's still not a better situation. The bullpen looks similar to the rotation, and personally I don't care. Bullpens can be a deck that's constantly shuffled but there should be at least a little stability and outside of Rogers or (maybe) Duffey that's been hard to come by. Go ahead, sell me on the hope of prospects to come, or major offseason acquisitions; the point still stands, the staff is in worse shape now than when this FO started their first season.... Also, I'm glad we're all so well versed in internet culture; the sarcastic ass memes are super cool....

I think the "what," is far more important than the "who," aspect of the question. There are areas of operation that need to improve, some of them rather quickly.

At the major league level or across the entire system? Canterino is shelved again with an elbow aliment and has barely pitched at all this season. Same goes for Duran. Winder hasn't pitched since July, Idk if it's actually fatigue or an injury. If Woods Richardson starts throwing strikes maybe he could get a look, but even then it'd be nothing more than a glimpse. None of these guys are going to be able to throw anywhere near what would be considered a significant amount of innings at the major league level, even if they're healthy. I'm not sure how much you can take away from that. That leaves Balazovic and the guys they have up right now. I guess you can throw Alcala in there too, but I don't know if a guy settling into a relief role is much of a feather in the cap. If their continued employment is tied to the performances of Balazovic, Ryan, and Ober that seems kinda lame duck-ish to me. Maybe they go on a shopping spree, trade some corner OF/DH/1B prospect types, and actually solidify the rotation. Regardless of what happens this offseason though, I doubt their seat is all that warm.

In 2017 they: signed Belisle and Castro to major league deals, signed Bartolo Colon, Chris Gimenez, Craig Breslow, and Nick Tepesch to minor league deals, selected Justin Haley in the Rule V draft claimed Adrianza off waivers. I don't know how anybody looks at that group and thinks that '17 team wasn't making the postseason without a change at the top. The FO inherited talent, that shouldn't even be debatable. Gunnarthor made a great point which has been lost in the argument about whether '16 or '21 are mulligans; "The FOs job was to keep the window open & support the core." That's 100% spot on. I'd add developing arms to that as well. I believe that's what we were sold when this duo took over. The fact that we're already likely looking at a lost season in '22 and the pitching staff is in worse shape then when this FO took over says it all.

Do you think the problems are specific only to this season, or do they stretch back beyond just 1 year?

I wouldn't even rank him as the worst single year, positional player signed by this FO. Logan Morrison anybody?

Idk if I'd say he's been jerked around. Bullpen innings (in fairness, struggles too) aren't uncommon early in starters careers. If the Twins staff wasn't a total dumpster fire this year, or they weren't starved for even mediocre internal options to start games, are they handing him that extension, or letting him rack up 40+ IP of pretty awful baseball this season? He pitched himself out of the rotation last year, albeit in a short/weird season, and he hasn't shown anything this year to suggest that wasn't the right move. Look, I'm not saying they need to give up on him, but we can reel it in a bit on Dobnak.

You can probably back up all the way to May 1st and his aggregate numbers aren't terrible. That said, I want nothing to do with him next year. I still see a guy who struggles with command, doesn't strike out enough hitters, and just seems to wilt in any sort of leverage situation. He isn't the historically awful pitcher we saw in April; I also doubt whoever pays him next season gets the 4 even-ish months we've seen.

I really don't understand the usage argument. The guy did almost the exact same thing in '19, coming off an entire summer of starting. Suddenly a handful of starts in ST and subsequent move to the bullpen derails him? Eh....color me skeptical. As far as injury goes, if we want to erase the two games in TX, even the Yankees game (though I'd argue he was already getting bludgeoned prior to the nail tearing) we can, but the overall picture isn't any prettier. I think the issue with Dobnak has been......Dobnak.

Except that year you're leaving out is his most recent year in which he actually played a full season. Add in age and workload/expectations for the rotation spot he filled and it's not exactly unfathomable that Happ didn't work out. "Won't be terrible," is an incredibly low bar to clear. Maybe that's the problem....

I haven't seen posts saying teams should never sign vets. I believe the prevailing sentiment is that continually shuffling the deck and relying on those short term, aging arms to carry 40-60% of a rotation isn't a good idea. I don't know why we're acting shocked that a nearly 39 year old Happ wasn't good, especially when his previous full season in '19 didn't go well. Whatever he did 6 years ago isn't all that relevant. We don't look at Donaldson's MVP years and wonder why he's no longer at that level do we?

He started 10 games in the shortened '20 season and managed to loss his spot in the rotation/be optioned within those two months. Half of his appearances during his celebrated '19 stint were in relief, after he spent an entire summer starting in the minors, so I don't know why we're blaming his usage. What happened to him this year is that he has pitched poorly.

I wouldn't argue Cleveland is either, I think the Twins would've been a little better, but "tomayto, tomahto." Agreed, this is a culmination, not a recent development.

Agreed on the first paragraph. Agreed that quality > quantity. I'd imagine a roster tear down starts with moving Buxton, and I think that's a mistake. It might be a couple years until they're competitive with the major league quality players they have; I don't see how they can redo the roster and we only endure a couple of bad seasons. I get the angst over panic moves. I'm almost more concerned about handing this FO another 3-5 year window as we cross our collective fingers on pitching prospects.

Probably a bit pessimistic. If their FA signings aren't literally league worst at their respective positions, (there are lots of ways to slice that) it wouldn't be shocking to see this team at least sitting where Toronto is right now. Maybe injuries, particularly Maeda, would've derailed them this half but given how bad the division is even remotely competent pitching coupled with the offense should've at least had them fighting for a WC spot.

I'd argue things went south because of poor moves with other factors compounding existing issues. As a general rule, I agree, even the best teams need to reset. As far as the Twins are concerned I think it came about prematurely.

In general, or in this specific instance?

Agreed, the fixation with "flexibility," or stop gaps is what got us here in the first place. If they're going to suck, I'd rather it be with with 1-2 solid rotation pieces that provide stability beyond just next season. I'd like to see the younger arms supplement that instead of a new cast of bargain bin pieces that have no value beyond '22.