KirbyDome89

Thibs must be devastated..... http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25417887/joakim-noah-nearing-1-year-deal-memphis-grizzlies

Boston: traded for or signed Sale, Price, and Porcello Houston: traded for Verlander and Cole New York: Signed Tanaka and just traded for Paxton Cleveland: traded for Carrasco, Kluber, and Bauer That's just in the AL. None of that screams home grown to me. The closest thing are the pitchers Cleveland acquired but those guys were already in AAA or about to make that jump when the Indians traded for them. Nobody is arguing that massive FA pitching contracts are great value; they're not, but Jordan Zimmerman and Zach Greinke aren't on the same talent planet. Skipping the 15' FA class helps that poor WAR return argument as well because you're leaving out Max Scherzer's dominance since his FA signing. As it stands right now I'd take a 2 WAR Arrieta over the question marks in the 4 and 5 spots for the current Twins rotation. Ideally the team would aim higher but it's certainly better than crossing your fingers and hoping for the best.

Adding one of the best pitchers in baseball to a rotation that desperately needs help would absolutely push this team beyond simply being mediocre. Teams reach an elite level my making multiple moves forward (from within and outside the organization) over time. Adding Syndergaard would be another step in that direction. I'll never understand the notion that a team needs to "wait," until they're "one player away," to add serious talent via trade or FA. If they won't trade for or sign anybody how can we expect that they ever reach that point? The "they're not there yet," argument becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Regardless of how much payroll Cleveland sheds, the Twins should be in on this season. Here's to hoping we start the year with more than "fingers crossed."

It certainly is more desirable to have that flexibility. I was thinking more along the lines of a team with no prospect of competing this season, and no desire to spend in FA adding him at least through ST.

If I'm betting I'd say it's more likely than not that Jay is selected. Pedigree alone might be enough to convince a team to take a look at him through ST. As a side note, hopefully this is the year the FO decides to sit out the Rule V. If I'm going to watch a minor league pitcher with questionable attributes stick on the 25 man I'd rather it be somebody from the Twins own system.

There's a path where I can see that happening. I wouldn't say it's very likely but it's a great point over the next few years. As cheap as Cleveland is they still have 2 studs to build around in Lindor and Ramirez. Chicago and Detroit aren't going to be down forever either. The Twins can't exactly "wait it out," because the division is only going to get tougher.

Agreed, if they aren't willing to push in now with 3 potential 90 loss teams in their own division then there won't ever be a time.

You've painted a very realistic scenario, and if it comes to fruition it'd be underwhelming to say the least. The part in bold was the mantra last offseason, and it goes back much farther than that. This team needs to choose a direction because right now it seems they're all too happy with chasing mediocrity while wasting the few cost controlled years that remain for the young core.

If Austin's time with the Twins last season is a SSS (it is) then I have a hard time buying Cron's career year in 18' as a "track record." I'll take the guy making 500K who fails to control the strike zone, has zero positional flexibility, and is an average fielder at best over the guy making 5M with nearly identical attributes. Also I laughed my a** off at the notion that the Twins will simply cut bait with Cron in ST. This ownership literally sold a 2nd round pick rather than just rid themselves of a player who had proven over the course of 2 years he wasn't a capable MLB pitcher. They aren't going to simply piss away 500K no matter how insignificant we might feel it is in the big picture....

The Twins are all about those "value," signings and trades. But on a serious note, this team needs to sign and/or trade for talent like Paxton if they're remotely serious about trying to contend.

I had worked hard to forget Jepsen ever donned a Twins uniform, then this thread showed up......

FWIW I'm still on the Buxton train. I can understand the skepticism. His defense has been elite since he stepped onto the field, but aside from an insanely hot July though September of 17' he's oscillated between atrocious and below average at the plate. I'm not sure I'd call Hicks a superstar but he's certainly better than Buxton at this moment. Honestly, if we're picking a team for only next year, is anybody choosing Buxton to start in CF ahead of Hicks? Each player may have broken out in 17' but Hicks followed that season up with an even better one while Buxton reverted back to a player who looked clueless with a bat in his hands. Maybe (hopefully) last season can be chalked up to injuries & mishandling, and Buxton bounces back similarly to Hicks. IMO a long term deal probably isn't in the best interest of either side right now. The Twins were content to gain an extra year, even if it meant pissing Buxton off. They might as well use it to see how this season plays out. If Buxton bounces back and they end up spending a little more they can consider it the fee for a more secure investment. I can't imagine Buxton is in any rush to sign a long term team friendly deal, especially after the way he was handled last season. Using last season as leverage, after stealing a year of service time from him, to coerce him into signing a deal that would pay well below what he stands to make as a FA assuming he can replicate some of his 17' season is a bad look for the Twins. Buxton is better off betting on himself.

There's no rule that Wolves have to keep all those picks, or that they have to wait to build around Towns. They can use the picks in a trade, or to clear cap space in an effort to sign another star player in this offseason. FWIW Paul will be 37 when his contract ends; Harden and Butler would each be in their mid 30s assuming Butler gets the five year deal he's after, and all three are up at roughly the same time. Barring trades, Houston would be committed to those three + Capela without much, if any, wiggle room to brace for the fall. Unless the Rockets completely revamp their entire lineup within a year It's not inconceivable to think those late picks could be high.

It's one thing to ask for more, it's another to demand it and be prepared to walk away. https://www.thedreamshake.com/2018/10/29/18040384/eric-gordon-mandatory-if-houston-rockets-want-to-trade-for-jimmy-butler Also, do the Wolves realize how valuable those 1st round picks might be in years 5 and 7? Houston isn't a team that's built to win for the next 5+ seasons. At least the Wolves are playing nice by ensuring they don't create a super power in the Western Conference, because it's not like one of those already exists..... https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/2018/10/30/stein-wolves-brass-in-strong-agreement-about-not-trading-jimmy-butler-to-rockets/

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-trade-rumors-news-minnesota-timberwolves-want-houston-rockets-include-eric-gordon-deal-jimmy-butler-first-round-picks/1bkzwc56g7ml1vlttqzggerhi What. A. Joke. Seriously, get this guy out of here. He is single handedly torpedoing chances to be a better team in the future.

I'm waiting for Thibs to come back and say he'd like a little bit more.

"Communicative," "Culture-building/Positive thinking," All things the Twins organization needs. If Baldelli is half the guy he sounds like then this should work out really well.

Fair question, I'm not sure there's a rock solid answer. Gibson probably is a good example. Cave is likely another one, but you've already touched on the issue with holding up specific examples of player development. For every Pressley or Gibson there's a Morrison, Lynn, Sano, ect. I'm sure it's already been mentioned in this thread but what are we supposed to think about about Kepler essentially being the same player for 3 seasons now, or Buxton (discounting injuries) continuing to struggle at the plate? Why was the first foray into FA by this FO a failure for the most part? Pitching continues to be an issue for this team and arms like Randy Rosario and Dereck Rodriguez been let go but Tyler Kinely, Justin Haley, David Hale, ect all needed roster spots? Analytics are involved in all those decisions as well. The draft moves and deadline deals are all unknowns. I agreed with the decision to sell this season, and even if they weren't able to mine any MLB talent from the acquisitions I'm on board with the process, but I can't pat them on the back for those moves right now either. We agree, the Twins have likely improved, but I don't think that's the point. The question is how much, and based on the mixed bag of decision making we've seen it's hard to tell. IMO that's the source of frustration after 2 years.

Touches/Shots It isn't just Butler and Wiggins hogging the ball either. Both Teague and D Rose are averaging more shots per game than Towns. I know, SSS yada yada, but Towns can't pass himself the ball and if the 4 primary ball handlers are all looking to get their own then Towns is left fighting for leftovers.

You're absolutely right, we have no idea what the gap is. I agree that being better than Houston at this point isn't realistic. I'm less concerned with being the top analytical team than I am with showing proficiency and turning what was/is an obvious weakness into a strength. We're two years in at this point, and tangible results are hard to come by. IMO that's a legitimate source of frustration. We all knew improving the on field product wouldn't be an immediate fix when this FO took over, but an infusion of analytical talent and a positive yield as a result of the revamping was expected in a shorter time frame. When Falvey came over forward-thinking was touted as his strong suit. I don't think it's unreasonable to be disappointed with the results after two years. Maybe the Twins have made significant steps forward, and maybe the results we're all hoping for are about to show up, but as of this moment I have a foot in the "underwhelmed," camp in regards to what we've seen.

I think we're assuming this was what the Brewers envisioned. They no doubt saw adding Cain and Yelich as an upgrade but I doubt they knew they were getting the NL MVP. Yelich is a very good, young player on an extremely team friendly deal. Kudos to Milwaukee for taking advantage of Miami's perennial fire sale, but they certainly didn't luck into acquiring him, nor did they get him for a discount. They might have exceeded expectations but as has been mentioned above, the process was sound. They didn't find any pitching so they did the next best thing, and it worked out.

A hard-line stance is the easiest to take.

Remember a few hours ago when the Twins needed to cut him?.....

You can't measure a hypothetical scenario involving the past. Does bringing in an actual major league catcher other than Bobby Wilson not improve the team? Does having a legitimate 4th OFer on the bench not improve the team? The answers should be fairly easy here. Comparing individual player WAR to team wins isn't apples to apples either. The Twins know they have talented major league players in Rosario, Berrios, Kepler, ect. They hope that's what they get from Lewis, Kiriloff, ect. There's no reason why this organization can't continue to surround those players with talent while also identifying young trade candidates, using the international pool, and drafting well. What's naive about saying the team could afford to bring in backups at a couple positions and a few more bullpen arms? You can chill on the ad hominem btw.... Obviously I didn't take it literally. My point was, and continues to be, that their paths aren't ones that can simply be "followed." Finding a hidden gem via savvy trading is great. I'd love the Twins to find another Johan, but I'd never rely on it happening. Drafting an development could certainly be improved, but alone that's not enough. We've seen how fickle prospects can be. At some point teams have to become players in FA and make trades to fill out a roster that can seriously contend. That point isn't necessarily linear, i.e. there isn't a checklist where once a certain number of criteria have been met it's safe to dip into FA and trade prospects. The rise to contention is built through all those process working together. The notion that we need to have nearly an entire roster of young, solid players before the Twins can make an serious moves is why the "window of contention," has been continually pushed back.