TwinsDr2021

Don't forget included in that group were Berrios, Meyer, Thorpe, Jay, Jorge, Stewart, Mejia

I would pass on Snell, don't need another high pitch count lower innings type guy. As for Nathan, when was he awful? His rookie year(Just two years into his pitching career) where is ERA was 4.18 in 90.1 innings (almost exactly the same innings,ERA and Age as Ober, I will give you Ober's secondary numbers were much better)? He wasn't good the next year (ERA - 5.21), and then didn't pitch in the majors again for two years, assuming he was terrible then? And age 28 he was good again and great for quite a while. Can we stop comparing possibly HOF players to Twins prospects, it isn't fair to either.

Absolutely understand what it means, I don't think it means anything because it isn't like any of the Twins starters (or 99% of all starters) for example are going to throw 9 innings, so it is projection of something that is not very likely going to happen. I can run 6 minute miles in a 5K (I can't) but since it is easier to read large number vs Fractions, I am going to say run a marathon in 2 hours and 24 minutes even though I have never ran a marathon. (Ultimately it makes me look better than I am) Also it doesn't tell me the same thing, for a pitcher like Bundy who normally throw around 5 innings, what does K per 9 say? That he normally K's about 56% of his K per 9, at least with K's per inning I can times that number by 5 . Bundy's 6.49 K.9, but his K's per start is 3.8, sure that can be implied by taking the K's per 9 and dividing it, in this day and age I think K's per inning is the only one that makes sense. (FYI, I am not saying people can't or shouldn't use it, I just think it is a joke, if you or others don't I am OK with that, I will stop talking about now and get back onto how to improve the Twins) And Back to Colorado the only pitcher on their team I want is Bard, he is a free agent next year to the price shouldn't be that high, Saboato or Strotman, and the high end Sands, Povich or Henriquez.

wasn't really trying to say it was or wasn't a bad/good/great trade, and in IMO it was a push as of now, but others could argue different and be right. I was just pointing out it was an off season trade and this FO has done pretty darn good with off season trades in general even if this one isn't an obvious win right now (It will look better next year I would guess unless Donaldson finds a fountain of youth). My point was they haven't done a in season trade to better the team, yet that has been great. Best I could find - Baseball Reference's WAR (bWAR) focuses more on the outcomes of a game while FanGraphs is known for valuing the peripherals more

Not meant as a dig on you, but I find the stat K's per 9 innings a joke (any stat that compares 9 innings), For example Bundy has pitched 9 innings three times in his whole career so how relevant is it how many K's he would have in a hypothetical 9 inning game that he will literally never pitch. It seems like K's per inning is a better stat for about 99% of pitchers, or even a K's per start, off my soap box. This trade makes no sense to me, trading one 5 inning know what you have pitcher for another 5 inning not sure what you have pitcher and swapping two pen arms doesn't seem like improvement to me.

Don't have an answer for your question. I was going off of BB Reference, doubling Donaldson's WAR since he is likely to play 67 games the rest of the year. Sanchez WAR is .6, Gio is 1.0, and Garver is .4.

Seems like the perfect type of guy to trade for a relief pitcher.

No sign of return from injured list Alcala (elbow) remains in a holding pattern and hasn't made progress after being shut down once again June 1 with tightness in his pitching elbow, Dan Hayes of The Athletic reports... Impact There have been conflicting reports on whether Alcala is set to throw again or has been shut down for an extended period. Either way, it doesn't sound like he has a chance to return any time soon. Alcala has been on the injured list since April 12 with right elbow inflammation. He made a rehab appearance June 1 but was later shut down again with tightness in his pitching elbow. 4 DAYS AGO • ROTOWIRE

I agree with the first two you mentioned (Maeda and Gray) and Odo, all three were trades prior to the season. Both Maeda and Odo had 1 really good year (Odo had a second decent year) and Gray is on his way to a good to better first year here. I will say great trades. Celestino, Duran, Alcala, Ryan and Smeltzer were all trades that traded away a vet for minor league guys and have also have been great, you could argue the Pressly trade, but not important. The Donaldson trade for the other two plus Correa is a push at best since Donaldson is on pace for a 4+ WAR, but also could be argued it was really good. So they are been good at trading no doubt, especially acquiring other peoples minor league talent. But were they have fallen short is trading to help the team in season. Just my thoughts.

I would add it is July 11th and they are 8 games over .500 and 4.5 games up on second (with the other top 2 teams not living up to expectations) there is no guarantee that happens in the next how many ever years. I sure as heck hope it is even better than that, but most of us assumed 21 would be division title contender at least and it wasn't even close. With that said the future does look bright with the things @Major League Ready has said, so I am not for trading the whole farm for this year, but I am all for trading a few minor league prospect to solidify this first place team, hopefully that result is two pitches better Romo and Dyson.

I agree if I am Pitt my starting position would Winder, AK and Canterino. And I would settle for Ober, Larnach and Canterino and nothing less. Two major league players and a lottery ticket. If people think that is too high, what would you want for Duran right now and he has nothing in his career compared to Bednar

I am confused by this, Fox sports has the twins tied for 4th (Blue Jays and Cubs) with the most blown saves (17), behind the Rays, Braves and Red Sox. And 20th with 19 saves and the tied for 3rd with 57 holds (Astros) The holds being high isn't a huge surprise since you get quite a few chances when the team is good and the bullpen is required to pitch more innings, The Twins are 25th in Quality stars (22), one behind Detroit, and one ahead of Baltimore and the Royals. "https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/team-stats?category=pitching&season=2022&seasonType=reg"

Very true, he was a 4th round pick out of Stetson by San Diego and was traded to Cleveland in 2010 (he was in AA), Cleveland had him in the majors the next season (age 25 3 games), 12 games in 2012, and he kind of broke out in 2103 with a 11-5 record and 3.85 ERA, then was amazing for 5 years.

Not saying you are wrong but on the year his 4 seamer is up .5 from last year (91.2 - 91.7). Has the last few been lower than the previous starts? I was listening to the start against Colorado on the radio and they were saying his fast ball was regularly around 91 or 92 (don't remember much above or below those numbers, his problem was he couldn't put away hitters, In the first he was 1 -2 then two balls and 4 pitches later a double, then a 5 pitch ground out (after three fouls), quick out, then went 0 -2 on Cron threw three balls and gave up a double, then a 4 pitch out. 1 run 24 pitches. In the second, first batter 0 - 2 then walked the lead off hitter on 8 pitchers, 0 - 2 second batter three balls and a single, third batter fouled out after being down 3 - 0, fourth batter flied out after 4 pitches, fifth batter 0 - 2, got him to foul out 7 pitches later, 0 runs 33 pitches, and you knew it was going to be a short outing even though he had only given up 1 run, but 57 pitches after two. The rest of the game he was more efficient but it doesn't take long to run up the pitch count when innings like 1 and 2, I think it was Gladden that said he doesn't a strike out pitch today he needs to quick nibbling and throw strikes.

I agree with all of that. except nobody has demonstrated that what the Twins did with Bundy any other team is doing or really ever does at all, there is no argument from me on anything that is being said, stated, proved by fact except that. I believe I can say based on looking at hundreds of box scores that 9/10 times other teams would have let Bundy start the 6th (right or wrong decision is not what I am arguing .) FYI I found many examples where a pitcher was brought out for the 6th with about the same amount of pitches, and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, and there many that the pitcher stayed good and finished 7 or 8 plus innings. And that is what I am basing my argument on, if you state that "everybody is doing" that specific decision it should be reality easy to confirm that conclusion, all of the facts that numbers, even the one example of the Rays and everything else that has been given is all great information and wonderful work on digging it up, and I truly do appreciate all that work didn't IMO.

That makes sense and I don't disagree with that, but if what you are saying is true, shouldn't we see more guys being taken out in the 5th with less than say 65 pitches? Or 6 innings with lets say 75 pitches? But that isn't what the box scores are showing, they are showing if a pitcher is efficient they are usually given more outs/innings and if they aren't horribly efficient they are taken out (Example Winder last night 5/77, that seems very consistent across the league). That is my whole point, I feel like you are trying to say something I already agree with and have said absolutely true.

That is what I did Big Dog, I went though hundreds of box scorse, looking for something close to that, every start by the Yanks, Braves, Rays, Mets and daily box scores for the last few weeks, and I couldn't find a pitcher taken out in the 5th averaging less (besides the ones I mentioned above) than 12 pitches (60 pitchers) or 6 innings and less than 7 pitches. unless that pitcher was coming back from a injury, a rain delay, or the pitcher was terrible. So I guess your point was?

My argument was never about pitcher's pitching less innings, less pitches, favorable matchups, or any of the other things, my argument was simplify do teams take a starting pitcher out in 5 innings and around 58 , or really any other inning where a pitcher is averaging 10/11 pitches an inning? You say pitch count isn't the major factor, but with all the examples I provided it actually does seems to be a big factor? No?

I agree, I was reading some on facebook (not a good source) but it was pointing out that the 300 win club is pretty much done adding pitchers, none of the active one are really all that close, will 200 be the new standard and if so after the current projected HOF starting pitchers retire, will that be the end of Hall of Fame starting pitchers? The youngest guys with 100 wins are Bumgarner (32, 131), Cole (31, 124), The youngest guy with 90 is Carlos Carrasco( 35, 98), The youngest guy with 80 is Trevor Bauer (31, 83), but he might be done, so Sonny Gray (32, 86) The youngest guy with 70 is Aaron Nola (29,72) The youngest guy with 60 is Jose Berrios (28, 66) The youngest guy with 50 is German Marquez (27, 58) Even if you drop down to between 40 and 50 wins you have three guys younger than 28 years old. Giolito (27, 47), Walker Buehler (27, 46), Shane Bieber (27, 44), These pitchers would have to average at least 12 wins a year each and every year until they are 40 just to get around the 200 mark and that is for the youngest guys. Cole seems like a decent bet to get to 200, but would anybody bet on any of the others?

Got it everybody doing this means one playoff game three years ago, going forward I will be sure to remember that everybody doing somethings could mean a unique scenario three seasons ago. And yes it is lazy to make a broad statement that everybody is doing something, but then not being able to back it up or refusing to back it up. And again I am talking about Bundy's latest game. If this conversation was about Winder being pulled after 5 and 77 pitches and somebody complained it was too soon and you or me responded with too bad that is way the everybody is doing it, you know what that would be OK and not lazy, why? because we could point out numerous games every damn day by just about every team that it was happening. I have looked at hundreds of box scores in the last 24 hours and I found 2 similiar games to this one. Bundy's 6 inning 60 game (which he did give up the lead and his only run in the 6th, so maybe that is what the Twins were looking at, but that is vastly different than everybody is doing it), Archer's 5 inning 57 pitch game which the twins lost when Pagen blew a save to Detroit. Maybe I missed some, but if everybody is doing it, it shouldn't take hundreds of box scores to find 3?

This started out as My response was - "You always say that, but was there another team that pulled its starter after 58 pitchers, in just 5 innings yesterday, recently?" I pointed out that nobody did something similiar last weekend and in other messages pointed out 4 teams that haven't done anything similiar with their starters after their initial start or two. And has turned into I am not even sure what, but I know it hasn't turned into proving other teams do this on a regular basis or even much if any at all. Pointing out the average innings per start isn't lazy it is true when comparing the Twins to the league and backs up completely what the Twins and the league are doing with the pitching staff on average. And if this was a general discussion on how the Twins are managing their starters compared to the rest of the league, then it is great and all and I would have been pointing out all the stats you were to proving the Twins aren't much different than the rest of the league, and then would have compared the Twins starters to the other teams and we wouldn't be having this conversation because we would be on the same page. But it is lazy to throw out a statement like this when comparing ONE start, because not one person has even attempted to show another team has done this even once. 5 innings and 58 pitches. Now, maybe this is my fault for changing the initial conversation from Bundy and the third time through to pulling him from this game. You may want to save all the good research you did because it could come in handy later.

That is not at all what I am saying, I saying when pitcher pitches good and efficient their average inning per start is higher than you and others are expressing. I showed you example from 4 teams (that you listed) and didn't find any examples of a pitcher being pulled after 5 innings with 58 pitches (or something close to that), and this what you are saying everybody in baseball is doing, correct? taking pitchers out early and with low pitch counts because the math says there is a higher percent chance of winning? Is that not what you are saying every team in baseball is doing? And if it wasn't obvious I am not removing games to fit my narrative, I am saying when a guy pitches like crap they get pulled early or if it is early in the season and they haven't been stretched out., and if you remove those games, MOST of the time are getting pulled because of a high pitch count. Based on what I just pointed out some or more teams would have let a starter like Ryan start the 8th in his last game with only 89 pitches (Since he is a 90 - 100 pitch count type of pitcher) Now, I am not saying the Twins should have, I kind of thought it was a good idea with how inefficient he was the prior game and leaving on a good note was important. But based on what I posted above, for anybody to say well they had to take him out that is what all teams do, is a lazy statement.

As for Kluber you could say he might be similar because they don't like him run up his pitch count, but in his last starts were he hasn't been terrible, 5.1 (63 pitches), 6(92 pitches), 6(93 pitches), 5 (80 pitches), 6 (69 pitches), 6 (80 pitches), 6 (90 pitches), 6(64 pitches), 6 (71 pitches) In between those were 3 starts of 3 innings. Springs moved from the pen to the starter and has went 6 in three of his last 7, one he wasn't good 4.1 (4ER and 86 pitches), The other three were good 5.1 (94 pitches)and 5 inning (2ER 85 pitches), 5.2 (1 hit 80 pitches, but 4 walks) Baz is 23 and has 8 major league starts, 2 of his 5 starts he has went 6, one with 5.2(95 pitches), one was 4.2( 78 pitches) and the other was bad 2.1 (5 ER) Rasmussen has generally been up and down, if he is good and keeps his pitch count down he pitches longer, he isn't the most efficient pitcher out there. Yarbrough has an ERA of 5.82 so no surprise he doesn't average many innings per start, with that said he last four games are 5.1, 1.2, 6.2 and 5.1. So again, I am not sure your are proving your point, unless your argument is that bad starts bring down your average inning per start, or unless you are trying to say running up your pitch count can contribute to short starts.

I will just use the Yanks, I am only really seeing three starts that qualify for has been said, the three by Montgomery. James Taillon lowest pitch count for 5 innings was 72 (1st start), Lowest for 6 was 71 Luis Severino lowest pitch count for 5 innings was 83 (2nd start), Lowest for 6 was 77 Nestor Cortes lowest pitch count for 5 innings was 82 (4th start), Lowest for 6 was 91 Jordan Montgomery lowest pitch count for 5 innings was 71 (2nd start and 4th start), Lowest for 6 was 71 Gerrit Cole lowest pitch count for 5.2 innings was 85 (2nd start), Lowest for 6 was 91 All average over 5.5. The only reason Cole isn't over 6 is two terrible starts., Montgomery has two starts less than 5 and if you remove those he is a 6, Cortes has two games of 4.1 with 4 runs, without that he would be a rounding error at 6. They generally don't allow him to start an inning with over 85-90 pitches. Taillon is generally limited to less than 90 pitches but still is at 5.6, Severino is at 5.57 and has pitched in 7 games since the end of 2018 prior to this year and 8 of his 14 games he has pitched 6 inning, So using the Yanks as an example of everybody is doing it is not a good example at all, most are just a few bad starts from averaging 6 and besides a few early starts they generally are only limited by how efficient they are with pitches. Looked at the braves and the only reason Anderson isn't above 6 is because he has 4 short terrible games, when he is not bad he is over 5+ and in the 90 pitch count. Morton who is 38 is only below 6 because of the games he was bad (2) and not very efficient with his pitch count (102 in 5, 92 in 5, 95 in 5.1, 95 in 5) but in his last 5 games he has pitched 6, 7, 7, 5,2, 7. The rest of their games have been started by people I don't know, except the moved Strider from the pen to starting and 4 of his last stars are 6, 6, 3.2 (6 ER), 5.1 (106 pitches) Mets, Bassit is one bad game 3.1 (7 earned runs from 6), Carrasco (5.45) but 5 terrible games less than 5 innings (4.1, 2,1, 4.2, 4.1, 3.2), still under 6 but to 5 2/3. Taijuan Walker is under 6 but his last 11 starts have been 6, 7.1, 6, 6.2, 6, 6, 5.2 (94 pitches), 5 (88 pitches), 7, 5 (94 pitches, 7, And Scherzer only has 8 starts but 49.2 innings (That is over 6). So while you stats are 100% true, looking a little deeper kind of tells a different story.

To clarify I am calling the stat that no staff averages 6 inning a start as lazy. Because that doesn't take into account a team like the Rays (as one example) have had close to 25% of their stars being made by non-traditional starters.