TwinsDr2021

concerned? yes, absolutely, but still very optimistic on his future. Was hoping he would force the Twins hand on starting on the big club next year, so far I am not sure he has done that.

I like Winder, don't like that he has pitched 72 innings and the talk is he is tired or fatigued. He turns 25 in less than two months. How much do you take age into consideration for the rankings? Sadly if for some reason he would be done pitching for the year, it would be hard for me to consider him a top prospect since it is likely his age 25 season would also be about limiting innings, and wouldn't be until he is 26 that the expectations are he could go a whole season, seems very old for a prospect. Also Strotman turns 25 in less than a month, if he isn't up real soon, he also seems a little old for to be considered a top prospect, doesn't mean he won't be a good major league pitcher, IMO just means he isn't a top prospect. I guess one of the good things having your pitching prospects been on the old side is you probably never really have to pay them a ton of money, they will be 31 or older before they are due for free agency and it is super easy to explain why you aren't going to pay a boatload of money to a guy on the downside of their career.

You are not wrong, but a bunch of the pitchers (2017) selected (in the first) have or are pitching in the majors from that draft, most just have been terrible or not good. Would people feel better if they would have drafted one of them and are seeing them in the majors now, or still on the hope for Lewis in late 2022 or 2023. I don't know that answer. 2013-2015 - just me looking at the first rounds looks like they were kind of terrible years for pitching it would have been nice if they would have stayed away from it, But hey at least we have Burrows from 2015 draft. In total hindsight I wish they would have take Walker Buehler in 2015 (24th pick) Stewart if making the majors is a plus for him, since high school pitchers seem to flame out, Gordon hurts since it has taken so long and really doesn't project to be a starter, and Jay was a terrible pick and I believe that was widely considered a terrible pick.

Yes, sorry, I fixed the previous message and explained I quoted the wrong person.

Sorry my rant started with "Danchat" said "was more due to the complete and utter failures of Gonsalves, Jay, Stewart, Romero, and others" and I responded - "So no blame goes to the FO, that can't see their highly rated prospects are garbage and it might be a good idea to trade them for some value, either other prospects or a pitcher at the deadline. So yes I guess I can see how it turned into me saying they were garbage prospects and then a bunch of hypothetical's started., when in reality that wasn't my opinion, seeing the previous posts in this thread I was saying how highly rated the prospects were. and also I agree 17 probably was not the year to trade away prospects they hadn't seen as they had said the plan was to be sustain winning. I quoted the wrong person, and I apologize to Dman

My actual complaint is they didn't do crap at the deadlines when they had assets and when they were in the process of winning the divisions, and those assets just went away and they got nothing. So the basically pissed them away, I am a realist, I understand most prospects don't pan out and I also understand a team like MN might not get a bunch of chances to win in the playoffs, so I say trade (when you have assets) to at least try to get more of an advantage in the playoffs. But again I am a person that would have traded Lewis, Rooker, Enlow and just about any other prospect rated lower than them for Greinke, Gallen, Bauer (that would have been hard to do in division) or Stroman,

I don't believe that, I also don't believe they thought they were garbage. IMO they thought they would be decent starting pitchers and maybe better, and they were the bridge to the new pitchers they had just drafted and would be drafting. I believe they think they are so smart (and you have to think that to be in that job, so I don't mean that as a negative) that with Berrios, Gibson a few smart trades and get free agents picks they could piece meal it together or even better end come up with the next Kluber, Bieber, Bauer, Clevinger. It pretty much worked to win the division titles, and fell apart year, but next year will be the real question, if they can turn the ship back around, they deserve to keep their jobs, if not, so long. I don't think you can be allowed to mismanage assets for that long and keep your job. and two terrible years in a row, does just that. I mean do you think they signed Donaldson for 1 year of contending and 3 years of rebuilding? I don't but one down year out of 4, now that isn't wasting that asset which in this case is money.

So no blame goes to the FO, that can't see their highly rated prospects are garbage and it might be a good idea to trade them for some value, either other prospects or a pitcher at the deadline.

thanks, I understand that both were on lists prior to them joining the organization. My point on Jay and Stewart were just that they were former 1st round picks, Jay was still considered a top relief pitcher prospect and other team fans love to see a former 1st round pick thrown into a deal. Also Duran has only really been a top 100 prospect once and only by baseball america and that was pre-2000, so does he fall into the Stewart, Jay, Gonzo, Romero Pot? Because some still think he will be a top starting pitcher (Not me, but some)

The problem isn't that they have gone on to do something, the problem was this front office didn't do a damn thing with these assets. And beside Kohl (but still young and former first round pick) they all had a bright shine on them while this FO was in charge, Jay had wore off a bit, but was still considered a sure fire relief pitcher. People keep talking about the Tampa way, the Tampa way is more than just trading stars when they get to expensive it is evaluating players and trading them away if they are going to clog up their 40 man roster. Prime example - They just traded two of them to the Twins, getting a short term boast on offense, and freeing up 2 40 man spots at the same time. The Twins don't trade prospects (except in the Odo and Maeda case which both worked) because gosh forbid some day they turn out.

Yes, Stewart was on in pre 15/16, does that not count that he was a one time top 100 prospect same with Jay? Jay was also on the pre 16, How is saying Gonsalves is a stretch, per https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=gonsal001ste Baseball America had him Pre2017 at 97, and pre2018 at 99, Major League Baseball had him Pre-2017 at 92, Pre-2018 at 78. So we ignore Romero was a top 100 prospect pre-2018 because a few years later he couldn't get into the country? The reason I listed Gibson and Berrios was mostly because they were the top starters on the 2 for Gibson, 3 for Berrios division championship teams. I also find it convenient that you the current top pitchers and prospect all but Duran go back to the guys I listed. Again my point is, when Gonzo and Romero were at their highest they didn't trade them for help at the deadline, they held on to them and got nothing, same with Jay, Stewart. Maybe none of them would have been headlines like Graterol was but, a Romero, Jay, Wade, Baddoo, and about 9 relief pitchers could have been traded for one decent starter at the deadline, and they would be no worse then they are today.

My biggest issue with the FO (continuing to employ Rocco), they were given Gonsalves (2 time top 100 prospect), Jay (1 time top 100 prospect), Stewart (2 time top 100 prospect), Romero (1 time top 100 prospect), Berrios (3 time top 100 prospect), Kyle Gibson (2/3 time top 100 prospect), Graterol (2 time top 100 prospect) ,Balazovic (1 time top 100 prospect) and currently out of that group they have Maeda, Duran (1 time top 100 prospect), Balazovic (1 time top 100 prospect), Simeon Woods-Richardson (2 time top 100 prospect)

I don't like being that guy, but have those 3 really emerged? IMO the only one of them that might be considered a lock to start next season is Kirilloff and that is only if he is 100% healthy and hitting in spring training. If Larnach doesn't improve the rest of the year, I am not sure how you can justify him being a opening day starter next year.

I completely agree, but if this FO decide they can't compete in 2022, I am out, done with the Twins. They told us they would bring sustained winning and starting over 6 or however long they have been here is not that, I can't stand Rocco as a manager but have put up with him since they have been pretty decent and winning divisions, I am willing to say 2021 is fluke and not the norm and sometimes seasons like this need to happen to refresh, replenish the old and/or stale. They have already lost my son, he has two Twins jerseys, Buxton and Berrios, he knows my favorite player of of the 90's and 2000's was Vlad, So he has kind of been paying attention to the Jays, and when Berrios got traded there. He said my new team in the Blue Jays, I want a Vlad, Berrios and Bichette Jersey, that was a sad day in our house.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't they inherit some top pitching in 16? Jay, Gonsalves, Stewart, Romero, Mejia, Thorpe, Jorge, Wells Jax, Graterol. The problem I have with the players you mentioned is age, injuries and/or command. Winder - 25 when next season starts, has an ERA of 4.67 in St. Paul averaging just over 4 innings a start. Duran - Injuries will be 24 when next season starts and has a 5.06 ERA in St. Paul, with 13 walks in 16 innings. Balazovic - will be 24 when the season starts, nothing really to complain about other than he has never pitched more than 93.2 innings in the minors so there should be no real expectation that he is going to pitch 150 innings in the majors for a few years. Canteriono - will be 24 when the season starts, is injured and the highest he has pitched is high A. Sands - will be 25 next July in AA, like Balazovic has never pitched more than 97.1 innings (College) and he is back down to averaging less than 5 innings per start. Vallimont - Will be 25 in March, has walked 36 guys in 59.1 innings in AA. Strotman - Turns 25 in less than a month, 33 walks in 58.1 innings (AAA TB), seems like a guy they Twins should have up since he is on the 40 and might be somebody they have to let go over the winter. Ryan- 25, projects as a relief pitcher from what I have heard. Woods-Richardson - love him is a real prospect being that he turns 21 shortly and in AA, big K's low walks IMO most of these guys are too old to be considered real prospects (that doesn't mean that can't and won't be good to great) and in another post a few weeks ago, I pointed out that most top of the rotation guys have already been in the majors and performing by this age. For example Berrios was an All Star in his age 24 season and had been in the majors for parts of three years.

Most of this makes no sense IMO, unless they don't plan to ever really compete again. (because thinking 24/25 is the next window is too far away for fans and in baseball) So they trade Rogers and spend the money they save on lesser pitchers? Trade Donaldson with the only back up plan at third is a prospect with a career .771 OPS (he has been hot this year and I HOPE that continues) or Arraez who would be out of position, and opening up another hole that Arraez filled. Trade Buxton at lowest of low values, with no back up plan for a replacement. Kepler -"Trevor Larnach and Alex Kirilloff’s emergence in the outfield make Kepler more expendable. " Is this really true have Larnach and Kirilloff did so much this year that they make Kepler expendable? The idea of going into next year with a lineup of Sano, Polanco, Arraez, Miranda, Jeffers, Larnach, Kirilloff, and Gordon/Celestino and 10 rookies pitchers does nothing for me. Plus if you are going to do this why would you go out and sign top end starters or why would they sign here?

IMO, Hunter might have been the face, but the nickname soul patrol, might have helped, and it also helped that he starting hitting home runs in 2001 to go along with his gold gloves. also IMO option, Morneau wasn't really the face Joe was but they also had a cool nickname M & M boys. I mean no offense to Polanco, he is a solid to very good major league player, and when he is on he is great. But I think it is hard to envision the face of the team being a good they team didn't think was good enough at SS to move to 2b.

Having Polanco as the face of the Twins says more about the current state of the Twins then it does about Polanco.

Not sure the 40 man roster will allow that to happen next, they are going to have remove some pitchers, and I don't think they can afford to put others on before they have to unless they are just so good they are forced to. (see other posts for the 40 man issues they are facing in the offseason and/or now.)

I think there could be some argument made for the first line over the second, based on the 2 2/3 more innings pitcher (I wouldn't agree with it but it could be made), but the third line doesn't even belong in the conversation, since they all started the same amount of games. Innings Hits Walks K's ERA 32 21 9 30 3.66 29.1 18 6 36 2.15 22.2 18 8 25 3.97

Gausman was lights most of the year, but his last 3 starts haven't been good, so if he doesn't turn that around I have no interest in signing him, plus his track record doesn't scream can't miss, which means I wouldn't give him more than 2 or 3 year contract even if he does turn it around the rest of the year. Stroman seems like an expensive down grade from Berrios, I am fine with starting him, but thinking he is an aces is a huge mistake. I am for signing Thor, maybe the most risk, but also a possible high reward. I like Ray, Rodriguez might be a guy they sign to a two year contact thinking the Twins minor league pitchers should be as good as him by year 3. My preference would be to stay away from Gausman and Stroman and try to sign two of the others guys, with Thor being my number 1.

Not sure there is much to argue with it, wasn't much to choose from July, here are most of the numbers for July, which are just gross. Pineda -4.41. Robles - 9.64 , Alcala - 7.84, Happ - 9.22, Duffey - 4.66, Rogers - 6.48, Colome - 3.72, Thielbar - 6.00, Jax - 5.14, Minaya - 6.00, Burrows - 8.31,

So would I, but I believe there is only 1 40 man roster spot open, and that is 6 guys not on the 40, so basically it requires cutting somebody everytime you bring one of them up, or moving a player from the 10 to 60 DL. Which IMO means we will be seeing quite a bit of Gant, Coulombe, Minaya and Burrows before we start seeing the guys in the minors.

The issue with the 5 inning start is that you are asking your bullpen to pitch 4 innings, the best bullpen this year is SD with an ERA of 2.90 with amazingly the most innings pitched. But when you get to the 10th best Oakland it is 3.73, and a 1/3 of the team over 4.5. Asking the SD bullpen to go 3 innings every game, means that on average they will give up 1 run, which is good, but for every game they don't give up a run the expectation is the next night they give up two, and so on, now add on another inning every game and you can see that by the time you get to the bullpen you have to have a lead or have your offense make up for the starter and the runs their bullpen gives up. And this is for the best bullpen, in the league. Now imagine those numbers were you bullpen ERA is closer to 4 or higher, it gets ugly. In 2019 the best bullpen was TB at 3.71, (Twins 47), in 2020 Oak and LAD were under 3, but only 4 under 3.5 and that was a crazy short season, in 2018 Houston was the best at 3.03 but that is no surprise with the starting staff they had, the pitched the second fewest innings. I fully understand that this is the way of MLB right now, but my point is that it doesn't seem to be working to put a starter out there for 4 or 5 innings and then start the bullpen parade, because every night you have to assume one of them is going to give up a run or more, or even multiple pitchers will, any other assumption is bad. I would think with analytics they should be able to figure out stacking or have starters might relief the back end of the pens from having to perfect every time. I just get sick of watching pitchers have 20 pitches per inning and knowing they will be pulled the third though the lineup anyway.

Without my opinion on what they should have done, there was one other option, try to compete next year (and use that time to try and sign him) and if that didn't work out and trade him at the deadline. As for buying low, I don't think they bought low, I think next year he will drop in the national prospect ranking based on the possibly of not be a SS and being 23, not a huge drop (maybe 10 - 20 spots) unless things really turn around this year,