TheLeviathan

Yeah, I'm not majorly disappointed in Jackson so far but I'm not impressed either. It hasn't been what I hoped.

He's taken a great development step these last two months. He's becoming a legit force.

This version wasn't that impressive against a team that got sliced and diced last week. Seattle went ground and pound...which is not KOC's style.

Even more than the 1st round talents, our spot in the 2nd round may cause us to miss out on the best safeties after Downs. Or linebackers if they slip.

I do not believe any of those players will be there at 18.

Woohoo! Dust off those homer hankies!

Ok...I'm happy to have this reason to watch. But if he plays well against a team that mailed it in....how should I feel? (I know how to feel if he stinks!)

He was pulling off some Mahomes level circus stuff. I don't know how well that will be interpreted at the next level, but he definitely improved his stock. I'm glad Bama got put in so we could watch them get humiliated.

I guess I think you can push back spring ball but I take your last few paragraphs as a good point. It's a mess.

Why not in the spring?

The transfer portal opens mid-playoffs? What imbecile made that call?

If the Vikings didn't pick at their designated spot.....the GM chose not to. I thought that was clear. It wasn't? I wasn't the one arguing that he can't be judged fairly because he's had less picks. Kwesi is why Kwesi had less picks. It's in bold so that maye you read it! Try it! Yet somehow that's a "Get out of being a ****** drafter free" card for you. For...reasons. And then I honestly, I've come to the conclusion you don't know what "analysis" is. It's all I have left. Unless your'e trolling me I guess. In which case....well done. Elite trolling. I mean...you have been lecturing on apples to apples and fair criteria and then proceeded to comparison Addison to Golden and omit that during Kwesi's time the Packers have also drafted Reed, Wicks, Watson, and Doubs. They've drafted nearly an entire starting offensive line. Two really good linebackers. And on what basis did you do this? Oh right...because you purposely reinterpreted what I said to mean first round picks! Except, I said "starting draft position" which impacts the positioning of every pick you make including picks in later rounds! So...no. I never made that argument. You strawmanned that. Again...elite troll work. Meanwhile...I stacked the deck in favor of Kwesi - his WHOLE team vs. the Packers offensive line. He tied. His WHOLE team vs. the Packers reciever room? Eeked it out 4-3. (But they also have Wicks and Golden in that room. Jsut not starters) His WHOLE team vs. Rick Spielman who was fired 5 years ago.....eeked out a tie. 41-donut. You keep arguing donut > 41. Elite troll work. Hat tip on it. Ya got me...I tap out.

Yup, steamroll the rest of the field Indy.

The second star is incoherent. You seem to not be able to understand that I artificially limited the Packer draft success to one position group and they still tied Kwesi's entire team results. This isn't hard. The third star is a fallacy because you use "in the NFL" to help mask how many of Kwesi's picks were dumped/cut/traded. For the rest: You keep thinking the ground you retreat to is safe, but because you're stuck on the idea that "well, Kwesi has been at a disadvantage, that must explain it!" you don't know the actual context of your arguments....yet make them anyway. Kwesi's starting draft positions: 11, 23, 12, and 24 Packer starting draft positions: 22, 13, 25, 23 So safe to say "How high up the picks" have been has strongly been AGAINST the Packers. Yet they still have out-drafted the Vikings. How many picks they have? Did I miss something where the NFL forcibly stripped the team of draft picks? The Vikings lack of picks is on Kwesi. He traded them. By my count, we have used that to add one starter (Hockenson), one quasi starter (Turner). One of those players is likely to be cut this season. Those decisions were on the GM. You don't get to hide behind a lack of picks when the lack of picks is the direct result of decisions by the FO in question. 13 vs. 6. I'm still waiting to see if math still works in your reality. I can give more fun facts! Crazy me thinking starters are more valuable than special teamers, but putting that aside: the team still has as many starters drafted by Rick Spielman as it does this FO. The Packers wide receiver room has almost as many starters as this FO in 4 drafts. Since the 2022 draft there have been 5 pro bowlers drafted by the NFC North: zero have been Vikings draft picks. Since 2022 there have 63 interceptions by players drafted in the NFC North....4 by the Vikings. Since 2022 there have been 156.6 sacks recorded by players drafted in the NFC North....only 16.5 by Vikings picks. There have been roughly 14,500 receiving yards posted by NFC North draftees....the Vikings have about 3,300 of that. (Arguably, the only position they actually drafted well in and they aren't even in the to two) I can continue for tackles. Touchdowns. Rushing yards. Under no metric that has been ********-ed to oblivion are they anything but a distant fourth to their primary rivals. So...no. The argument shouldn't be necessary. This is 41-donut except I got you arguing the donut was actually the winning score.

Right here. This is where you purposely try to twist the argument. I did use the same criteria - Jenkins is hurt. Banks was acquired via free agency. Their current starting offensive line is Walker-Banks-Rhyan-Belton-Tom. Four of those players have been drafted since 2022. (Walker 2022 7th, Rhyan 2022 3rd, Belton 2nd round 2025, and Tom 2022 4th). Fun fact - that's three starters from a draft Kwesi blew terribly! But that's just their offensive line. So let's say you don't want to count Rhyan because Jenkins is the expected starter prior to injury. Cool...then they have 3 starters on their offensive line by draft vs. 4 on our entire team. And that's if I let you count Turner who has quite clearly not started when both Greenard and Gink have been healthy. And yes! I was making a comparison that wasn't apples to apples! Because I freaking compared ONE POSITION GROUP to an ENTIRE TEAM. I was making an unfair argument that favored Kwesi. So you want apples to apples? Here we go: (For the second freaking time Mr. "Mekhi Blackmon who we cut is a great draft hit") Their top three receivers all drafted since 2022. Three starting offensive linemen (4 current starters) Their top two TEs. Both starting DTs. (And one usual starter that is on IR) 1 current edge rusher replacing Parsons, feel free not to count 2 starting linebackers 2 starting DBs (plus their nickelback if you want to count) By all means add that list up....is it greater than 5? You know, if we count Redmond and Turner to favor Kwesi. My math says yes but I live in reality and I don't know how math works in yours. By my count, conservatively, that's 13 vs. 5. (I chose not to count the NB or the edge guy or Rhyan) Which I think 13 is more. It is here in reality at least. Ooh...I know! Let's add guys we traded picks for! 13 vs. 6. Is 13 still more? I think it is?

It is the front office's job to manage the money they spend on the roster and judge when is the right time to make major investments. If the failures of this team are strictly on the lack of readiness of the QB....then their decision to invest that much money into a team with an unready QB....IS A FAILURE OF ASSESSMENT. You dumping the weight of the season's failures on the QB does, in no way, shape, or form, absolve the front office of their mistakes. In fact, it makes it worse. Go ahead and look at what it will take to get this team cap compliant next year. They will cut many of the players they signed this past offseason and eat dead cap to do so. These are failures of assessment and allocations of cap resources for a team with a QB who isn't ready. Period. I'm not even sure that's an opinion at this point. It's one aided with so much hindsight it can only be described as close to a fact as an opinion can get. Allen and Hargrave are both worse or equal to LDR, Redmond, and Harrison Phillips. Had the team signed neither of them they would have possibly been better off. Especially if they had invested that money in keeping Bynum. Or Darnold. Or signing another defensive back. They spent 40M on those two players. They'll have to eat 30M of that to get rid of them both. Hargrave has been a competent player. Allen has not. They were mediocre to bad signings. Worse when you consider alternative options and in-house players. You should know that since you counted the two guys they took snaps from as "hits" in your analysis. I don't know exactly where the failure lies in the Vikings drafting and trading process. Nor do you. What I do know is that the team has gotten significantly less value from their draft picks than the teams in their division and the majority of the rest of the NFL. This has been demonstrated to you with facts. You have chosen to ignore it in favor of your own subjective analysis. That analysis is wrong. It will always be wrong no matter how many times you cite it. Your failure to even consider why Blackmon (cut) shouldn't get to count as a "hit" is mind-bogging. Meanwhile the Packers have just as many starters on their OL from drafts since Kwesi than we have starters from Kwesi. Read that again if you need to. Maybe again. And again. I'll say it one more time: 4 drafted OL on the Packers are starting....we have 4 starters taken by Kwesi. (And that's me counting Redmond as a drafted player!!!) Whatever it takes. Keeping reading and digesting that. I can give you examples from the Bears and Lions too. But I did that already. Twice. You ignored it. Please stop ignoring what is inconvenient to your carefully, subjectively biased analysis. No one can have a fair discussion with you when you start from a wildly unfair position. It is not an overstatement to say that Kwesi and the FO have failed to utilize their draft picks to successfully add talent to this team. They have failed in trades (Hock, Thielen) and in use of those picks (Booth, Cine, Engram, Asamoah, Blackmon, Felton). It's why (and again...fact incoming) they have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL.   I'll stick to draft talks. If you don't like fair, accurate criticism of Kwesi....maybe you just need to give a rest on feeling the need to defend him. Rest assured - if he has a good draft...I'll be happy to compliment him. I hope that happens.

Right, how dare I state these things called "Facts"! How wrong I was! The Vikings apparently are not going to win 8 or 9 games. They also apparently didn't spend a **** ton of money on older players for those 8 or 9 wins. Who knew! They apparently, (knowingly!) according to you (which may or not be a fact. I can't tell any more what actual reality is for you) - gave a horrid run defender a huge bag with tons of guarantees and then....played him on run downs and traded their high end run defender. Which is, of course, what a smart front office does. Cuz...reasons. Everything I stated was a fact (though I was slightly off - 2nd most cash. Well above most teams) They're a non-playoff team that capped out at 9 wins because they have gone on a bit of a lucky bender at the end of the year. That 9 win season, with no playoffs and a middling draft picks, was bought with an enormous FA investment into old players to mask the deficiencies caused by a host of discarded, failed draft picks. These are facts. Here in Universe 616 at least. Please let me know which end of the multiverse you're visiting us from. I'll study up on that alternate reality so we can have discourse. Until then, I'm here in 616 waiting for you to join me. I'll say this one more time - purposely with a **** ton of sarcasm because even when I've nicely tried to point out the flaws you've still ignored it and accused me of bad form. So bad form it is! Why try! - We've already been over your studies and their over-reliance on your personal decision to label players draft hits that were cut or traded for 7th round picks. You know, what teams typically do with their draft hits. Customary even. The Vikings should start shopping their 7th round picks right now! I'm sure the Seahawks will be dumping their draft hit of JSN for nothing soon! Ya think Gibbs is going to get cut ala Blackmon and we can scoop him up? That's what teams do with draft hits afterall! Even better....please bring your vast alt-reality foresight: will our draft hit of Jordan Addison be expected to be cut or summarily dumped to the Titans for a 6th rounder after his third season? Your thoughts?

Jonathan Allen is one of the league's worst run defenders and is a major reason for the defense struggling to find its footing for so long this season. They outlayed more cash than anyone else last year and won 9 games. (And were rather lucky to do that) You really need to stop with attacking others with the insinuation that they only have "reasons". The reasons have been listed for you at length. Your persistent decision to ignore them is on you. I wont' be sucked into this battle again, but no one else should be forced by you to ignore the shortcomings of this front office while we prepare for another draft. If you choose not to accept the lengthy, truthful set of evidence for why people are skeptical and critical - fine. But for the love of god stop arguing with everyone about your pet delusion.

You don't have to like it, but Kwesi's draft failures are going to continue to be part of a draft thread for 2026. Trade failures that cost us picks are also a part of that conversation. You're welcome to sit those parts out, you've informed us all that you have not accepted that reality. That's fine, but the rest of us will continue the discourse with reality well in hand. He's got some work to do to get this team better and younger. He needs at least three impact talents out of this draft.

What a precipitous fall for him.

You're certainly right that the Thielen trade was an abject disaster. As @gunnarthorand @Vanimal46said....you can get down below the cap and have room. But I think your concerns have validity - cutting Allen is really, really not ideal. The ramifications would be rough. The others not so much and restructures can give you some room. However, they handed out a bunch of cash to win 9 games. The talent acquisition department whiffed badly on those cap allocations and we will pay for it next year and in the years ahead. So while yes, it is doable, it was made much more difficult by what can only be described as a really poor offseason. (I liked the general plan for the record, but I'm not the one in the building) If KAM isn't fired, this should be the last stand this FO gets. This draft class needs to have an immediate impact or heads ought to roll given how we've squandered so many assets in the last few years.

Downs is head and shoulders above the rest but there are some guys like Thienemann and Ramsay that are well thought of. There is a chance one of those guys is there in the mid 2nd. It's also possible the league learned their lesson with the miss on letting Emmanwori fall. Which QBs you think will rise? It's Mendoza, maybe Moore, and maybe Simpson. After that it's a lot of guys I don't expect to be taken early. I get the exact opposite sense on the OL. Many of the guys currently listed at tackle can't stay there in the NFL. They'll have to move inside. The guard class is weak. Center class is pretty weak too. It's a year I'm glad we aren't looking for much there. With our 5 picks in the first four rounds I'm sorta hoping to see something like this: 1 - CB Avion Terrell 2 - S Dillon Thienemann 3 - C Parker Brailsford 3 - LB Jacob Rodriguez (Bring him home. Absolute fan fave Day 1) 5th - Best RB on the board Trading down to add some more ammo in the 3/4 to get a NT would be ideal too.

We'll see what happens in the playoffs. I still see the huge problems he has from time to time that makes me mistrust him. Those kinds of mistakes were all over the field against Carolina.

I am firmly in "choose the young QB" path. I don't believe Darnold is the guy. What happens with JJ doesn't change that belief for me. I fully admit I'm just exhausted with half measures.

I wasn't able to watch...what are you both referring to?