When Paths Cross and Split: The Twins and Blue Jays Since 2023

[Twinsrtheworst]

1 hour ago, The Great Hambino said:

Attendance generally operates on a one-year lag.  I saw a study on it but can't seem to find it.  It's why the Twins set their attendance record in 1988.  But ownership kneecapped the usual bounce in attendance that the playoff run would normally provide for 2024 by coming out with the right-sizing bit in the immediate aftermath and following that up with butchering the TV situation (the unfulfilled promise of blackouts going away, plus who could've possibly foreseen a bankrupt provider having carriage issues???).  Ownership can't absolve itself from at least partial blame for their attendance problems

Agree 100 percent. It was definitely an incomprehensible statement to come out and say we need to “right size” our payroll.. And numerous questionable decisions for sure to say the least.  And in hindsight the Correa signing did not work out for us long term.  But I do appreciate the effort.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

Ownership can't absolve itself from at least partial blame for their attendance problems

Few if any here absolve ownership of all blame.  You're suggesting there are things outside their control.  Care to elaborate on what you had in mind?

[The Great Hambino]

1 minute ago, ashbury said:

Few if any here absolve ownership of all blame.  You're suggesting there are things outside their control.  Care to elaborate on what you had in mind?

Nothing in particular.  If that's how it came off, then that wasn't my intention.   I've tried to be pretty consistent that ownership deserves the lion's share of the blame for the situation the Twins find themselves in.

If I had a mulligan, I would've just omitted "at least partial" in my response

[ashbury]

19 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

Nothing in particular.  If that's how it came off, then that wasn't my intention.   I've tried to be pretty consistent that ownership deserves the lion's share of the blame for the situation the Twins find themselves in.

If I had a mulligan, I would've just omitted "at least partial" in my response

No, my POV is the opposite of what you might have assumed, and I was looking for something specific to riff off of, not a gotcha.  I've lived in a few major league markets, and I was in the Twin Cities for about 20 years - and have been gone now for nearly 30.  (And no, that does not make me "about 50," LOL.) The relationship between localities and their teams varies - for some it's a love-hate relationship, for others it's love win-or-lose.   I have to say that the Twin Cities seemed, to me anyway, as somewhat uniquely "transactional" in their relationship with the Twins: build me a winner and maybe I'll buy a ticket or two in the cheap seats next season if the winning continues.

It's the endpoint of why I haven't been especially vocal regarding whether or not to fire Rocco.  Fire him, and you still have Falvey.

I've come to view Falvey as running a below average but not incompetent front office.  Fire him, and you still have the constraints that ownership will place on the next young, eager FO underling they bring in to turn things around.

I don't have positive feelings for Twins ownership. Instead of building a warm relationship with the fans, coaxing folks to come out and have a good time win or lose like seems to be happening in Denver (because losing is bound to happen some years for any but the largest market teams), they have shot themselves in the foot with bland marketing and (lately) a propensity for truly tone-deaf statements in public such as Right Sizing.

But get rid of current ownership and bring in some new and enthusiastic business folk, and you still have a franchise located in a place where "The Opener" always has meant, and always will continue to mean, hunting and fishing.  I don't think it's a good baseball town.  That plus the constraints of the current CBA make it too tough. 

When new owners eventually come I hope they do have ideas on this general front that prove me wrong.  Because I basically don't. 

I know this isn't going to be popular, but there it is.  Your use of "partial" piqued my interest but I didn't want to guess.

[The Great Hambino]

31 minutes ago, ashbury said:

No, my POV is the opposite of what you might have assumed, and I was looking for something specific to riff off of, not a gotcha.  I've lived in a few major league markets, and I was in the Twin Cities for about 20 years - and have been gone now for nearly 30.  (And no, that does not make me "about 50," LOL.) Tthe relationship between localities and their teams varies - for some it's a love-hate relationship, for others it's love win-or-lose.   I have to say that the Twin Cities seemed, to me anyway, as somewhat uniquely "transactional" in their relationship with the Twins: build me a winner and maybe I'll buy a ticket or two in the cheap seats next season if the winning continues.

It's the endpoint of why I haven't been especially vocal regarding whether or not to fire Rocco.  Fire him, and you still have Falvey.

I've come to view Falvey as running a below average but not incompetent front office.  Fire him, and you still have the constraints that ownership will place on the next young, eager FO underling they bring in to turn things around.

I don't have positive feelings for Twins ownership. Instead of building a warm relationship with the fans, coaxing folks to come out and have a good time win or lose like seems to be happening in Denver (because losing is bound to happen some years for any but the largest market teams), they have shot themselves in the foot with bland marketing and (lately) a propensity for truly tone-deaf statements in public such as Right Sizing.

But get rid of current ownership and bring in some new and enthusiastic business folk, and you still have a franchise located in a place where "The Opener" always has meant, and always will continue to mean, hunting and fishing.  I don't think it's a good baseball town.  That plus the constraints of the current CBA make it too tough. 

When new owners eventually come I hope they do have ideas on this general front that prove me wrong.  Because I basically don't. 

I know this isn't going to be popular, but there it is.  Your use of "partial" piqued my interest but I didn't want to guess.

Fair enough.

Personally, I've only lived in the Twin Cities area, so I don't have a very good personal frame of reference for how the market compares to others.

As to the issues with the market you raise, and what new ownership can do about them, I don't think any meaningful change can happen overnight.  This is first and foremost a Viking town, and that's pretty ingrained in the local sports culture.  For a mid-sized market, it's tough to have two top dogs.  Take St Louis, for example.  Reasonably similar in a lot of ways to the Twin Cities.  They're widely regarded as a strong baseball market, but have multiple failed attempts at supporting an NFL team.  To a degree, the Twins will always be fighting an uphill battle in that sense.

But they've had relatively strong support at times in the past, so it's not impossible.  You mentioned their bland marketing.  Can't argue with that.  But back in the early 2000's, they had what I think was the best marketing push they've had at least in my lifetime with the "Get To Know 'Em" series of spots.  It's still the reason I can spell Mientkiewicz without looking it up.  When paired with an exciting, up-and-coming team, the Twins had some real juice that ultimately led us to Target Field.  But ever since they caught their white whale, the Pohlads seem to have set everything to autopilot and any stature they'd built up in this market has been eroding away ever since.

So while it may not be the perfect baseball market, I think it's safe to say there's plenty of opportunity for growth if handled properly.  I don't know if it can happen with current ownership as their relationship with their fanbase might be broken beyond repair.  Then again, it kinda felt that way after the contraction saga, which was quickly followed by the exciting era I described above, so who knows

[chpettit19]

23 hours ago, se7799 said:

In 2023 the Blue Jays drew over 3 million fans to the ballpark.  The Twins drew under 2 million.  Do the math.  Way too many empty seats in a season of fun baseball and playoff baseball.  Are we positive this didn’t contribute to the 25 million dollar decrease in payroll.  Attendance went up just over 100,000 from 2022 to 2023.  The cold reality is fun winning playoff baseball didn’t put substantially more butts in the seats.. Context and facts should matter still. I get it though, it’s just easier to simply regurgitate the Poland’s  are cheap and Levine is the worst.  

Facts should matter, like the Twins being 5 games over .500 on September 1st in 2023. They were the 7th best team in the AL on that date. A season after they finished 78-84 and were tied for 9th in the AL. Which came a season after they finished 73-89 and were the 13th best team in the AL. 

Fans were more than a little skeptical about that team. A 100,000 ticket increase from 2022 makes perfect sense when you look at the context and facts. It's not simple regurgitation to state that. The Twins were bellow .500 the 2 previous seasons while struggling to stay above .500 the entire 2023 season. As others have pointed out, 2024 was their shot for real attendance growth and they did literally everything wrong when it came to taking advantage of that.

Context and facts should matter still. And the context and facts 100% support there being very little reason for a massive attendance increase in 2023 and the Pohlads, Falvey, and DSP completely and utterly destroying any reasonable chance at the real increase in 2024.

[Twinsrtheworst]

16 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Facts should matter, like the Twins being 5 games over .500 on September 1st in 2023. They were the 7th best team in the AL on that date. A season after they finished 78-84 and were tied for 9th in the AL. Which came a season after they finished 73-89 and were the 13th best team in the AL. 

Fans were more than a little skeptical about that team. A 100,000 ticket increase from 2022 makes perfect sense when you look at the context and facts. It's not simple regurgitation to state that. The Twins were bellow .500 the 2 previous seasons while struggling to stay above .500 the entire 2023 season. As others have pointed out, 2024 was their shot for real attendance growth and they did literally everything wrong when it came to taking advantage of that.

Context and facts should matter still. And the context and facts 100% support there being very little reason for a massive attendance increase in 2023 and the Pohlads, Falvey, and DSP completely and utterly destroying any reasonable chance at the real increase in 2024.

Ok then in your opinion, were would the Twins need to rank in the American League to draw over 2 million fans?  Would they need to win 100 games like 19 when they drew 2.3?  The regurgitated phrase I was referencing was the Pohlands suck and Falvey is the worst.  So please don’t twist m words.   And what about the not close to sell out of home playoff games?  Did Falvey prevent that also?  I’m not defending ownership or Falvey.  There is plenty room for improvement across the board in the organization.   But I will always support my team. That is our own personal decision. But if we choose not to support them how much does it help by choosing that path and expecting payroll to increase while coming on message boards and regurgitating the Pohlands are cheap and Falvey is the worst..  Also you kind of made my point that fan disinterest started prior to the 2023 offseason.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, se7799 said:

Ok then in your opinion, were would the Twins need to rank in the American League to draw over 2 million fans?  Would they need to win 100 games like 19 when they drew 2.3?  The regurgitated phrase I was referencing was the Pohlands suck and Falvey is the worst.  So please don’t twist m words.   And what about the not close to sell out of home playoff games?  Did Falvey prevent that also?  I’m not defending ownership or Falvey.  There is plenty room for improvement across the board in the organization.   But I will always support my team. That is our own personal decision. But if we choose not to support them how much does it help by choosing that path and expecting payroll to increase while coming on message boards and regurgitating the Pohlands are cheap and Falvey is the worst..  Also you kind of made my point that fan disinterest started prior to the 2023 offseason.

I didn't twist anything. You tried to claim fans don't actually show up for "a season of fun baseball and playoff baseball" and tried to use 2023 as the example. You claimed context and facts matter and people shouldn't just regurgitate "the Poland’s  are cheap and Levine is the worst." I think we all realized you meant Falvey. I didn't twist anything. I showed that it isn't just regurgitating those lines without context or facts to support those ideas. 

They didn't sell out game 1, but they did sell out game 2. The Twins had 2 decades worth of playoff futility built up and were a team that struggled to stay above .500 all year. Fans are not so easily swayed. They won game 1 and game 2 immediately sold out. 

Yes, disinterest started before 2023, and it should have. That's the context part of your "Context and facts should matter still" idea. The context is that they'd been bad for back to back years, struggled most of 2023, and had 20 years of nothing but playoff losses built up. You tried to use the attendance only going up by 100k that year as proof fans wouldn't show up anyway while claiming people are ignoring "context and facts" and just regurgitating hate for the owners and FO. I just showed what the actual "context and facts" are. 

You're more than welcome to do whatever you want with your money. I support the Twins by watching their games on my computer by using someone else's cable sign in because I don't believe it's my job to provide money to them just because. The Pohlads and DSP have ran this organization (on the business side) terribly for decades. They've alienated fans and not provided reasons for us to give them our money. 2019 is actually proof that fans will show up if the Twins have an actual "season of fun baseball and playoff baseball." 

I don't buy bad products in hopes the manufacturer will suddenly start making a better product once they get enough of my money. Maybe you do. Maybe you go to an electronics store, find a TV that doesn't meet the standards you'd actually like in a TV but still buy it because you've been cheering for that brand and hope they will start putting out a product that actually meets your standards at some point. The Twins are a business selling a product. A poorly run business that alienates its customers but still expects them to buy their product. And then, when they don't buy their inferior product they turn around and blame their customers for not just buying whatever product they put out. If you want to give them your money no matter what I won't tell you not to. But I'm not going to. And if the Pohlads haven't realized by now they need to actually run their business well to get customers to pay for their product they deserve their struggles.

[Twinsrtheworst]

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I didn't twist anything. You tried to claim fans don't actually show up for "a season of fun baseball and playoff baseball" and tried to use 2023 as the example. You claimed context and facts matter and people shouldn't just regurgitate "the Poland’s  are cheap and Levine is the worst." I think we all realized you meant Falvey. I didn't twist anything. I showed that it isn't just regurgitating those lines without context or facts to support those ideas. 

They didn't sell out game 1, but they did sell out game 2. The Twins had 2 decades worth of playoff futility built up and were a team that struggled to stay above .500 all year. Fans are not so easily swayed. They won game 1 and game 2 immediately sold out. 

Yes, disinterest started before 2023, and it should have. That's the context part of your "Context and facts should matter still" idea. The context is that they'd been bad for back to back years, struggled most of 2023, and had 20 years of nothing but playoff losses built up. You tried to use the attendance only going up by 100k that year as proof fans wouldn't show up anyway while claiming people are ignoring "context and facts" and just regurgitating hate for the owners and FO. I just showed what the actual "context and facts" are. 

 

You're more than welcome to do whatever you want with your money. I support the Twins by watching their games on my computer by using someone else's cable sign in because I don't believe it's my job to provide money to them just because. The Pohlads and DSP have ran this organization (on the business side) terribly for decades. They've alienated fans and not provided reasons for us to give them our money. 2019 is actually proof that fans will show up if the Twins have an actual "season of fun baseball and playoff baseball." 

I don't buy bad products in hopes the manufacturer will suddenly start making a better product once they get enough of my money. Maybe you do. Maybe you go to an electronics store, find a TV that doesn't meet the standards you'd actually like in a TV but still buy it because you've been cheering for that brand and hope they will start putting out a product that actually meets your standards at some point. The Twins are a business selling a product. A poorly run business that alienates its customers but still expects them to buy their product. And then, when they don't buy their inferior product they turn around and blame their customers for not just buying whatever product they put out. If you want to give them your money no matter what I won't tell you not to. But I'm not going to. And if the Pohlads haven't realized by now they need to actually run their business well to get customers to pay for their product they deserve their struggles.

You sound like part of the problem though, not part of the solution..  You did put words in my mouth the first time you quoted me.  I kindly asked you not to is all.  No need to be condescending towards me however.  I stopped reading when you went off the rails.  But it sounds like to me you actually pinch your Pennies more than the Pohlands do.  Enjoy listening to the Twins on your transistor radio and then complaining about them on here.  Sounds like a great solution.. How has that worked out for you so far?

[chpettit19]

35 minutes ago, se7799 said:

You sound like part of the problem though, not part of the solution..  You did put words in my mouth the first time you quoted me.  I kindly asked you not to is all.  No need to be condescending towards me however.  I stopped reading when you went off the rails.  But it sounds like to me you actually pinch your Pennies more than the Pohlands do.  Enjoy listening to the Twins on your transistor radio and then complaining about them on here.  Sounds like a great solution.. How has that worked out for you so far?

I'm a former season ticket holder, actually. I've supported them plenty financially. I'd argue you're the bigger problem. Why should they be dedicated to winning when you'll pay them no matter what? I'm not pinching my pennies, I'm making a decision to spend my hard earned money elsewhere. When the Twins earn my money back I'll go back to spending on them. But they don't just blindly get my money. I'm happy for you that you continue to give them money no matter what. How's that worked out the last 30 years? 

Businesses produce good products and then customers give them money. Not the other way around.

[Twinsrtheworst]

On 10/24/2025 at 5:19 PM, chpettit19 said:

I'm a former season ticket holder, actually. I've supported them plenty financially. I'd argue you're the bigger problem. Why should they be dedicated to winning when you'll pay them no matter what? I'm not pinching my pennies, I'm making a decision to spend my hard earned money elsewhere. When the Twins earn my money back I'll go back to spending on them. But they don't just blindly get my money. I'm happy for you that you continue to give them money no matter what. How's that worked out the last 30 years? 

Businesses produce good products and then customers give them money. Not the other way around.

Forget it. You know what? Your opinions honestly don’t matter to me.

[Twinsrtheworst]

On 10/24/2025 at 5:19 PM, chpettit19 said:

I'm a former season ticket holder, actually. I've supported them plenty financially. I'd argue you're the bigger problem. Why should they be dedicated to winning when you'll pay them no matter what? I'm not pinching my pennies, I'm making a decision to spend my hard earned money elsewhere. When the Twins earn my money back I'll go back to spending on them. But they don't just blindly get my money. I'm happy for you that you continue to give them money no matter what. How's that worked out the last 30 years? 

Businesses produce good products and then customers give them money. Not the other way around.

So, I’m the reason they are not dedicated to winning. Got it. Now it all makes sense now.

[Twinsrtheworst]

On 10/24/2025 at 5:19 PM, chpettit19 said:

I'm a former season ticket holder, actually. I've supported them plenty financially. I'd argue you're the bigger problem. Why should they be dedicated to winning when you'll pay them no matter what? I'm not pinching my pennies, I'm making a decision to spend my hard earned money elsewhere. When the Twins earn my money back I'll go back to spending on them. But they don't just blindly get my money. I'm happy for you that you continue to give them money no matter what. How's that worked out the last 30 years? 

Businesses produce good products and then customers give them money. Not the other way around.

So you won’t attend a Twins game or watch them because you don’t want to spend the money supporting them.  But yet you spend your time as a moderator of a Twins Fan sight?  That’s weird considering time is more valuable than money.  Tell me you don’t have a clue without telling me you have no clue.

[chpettit19]

15 hours ago, se7799 said:

So you won’t attend a Twins game or watch them because you don’t want to spend the money supporting them.  But yet you spend your time as a moderator of a Twins Fan sight?  That’s weird considering time is more valuable than money.  Tell me you don’t have a clue without telling me you have no clue.

I'm sorry to have upset you so much, wasn't my intention. I do watch the Twins, including a good 75 minor league games a year on top of the major league games, but, no, I don't pay for Twins.tv or any other service that carries them. But the Pohlads don't care about my time, they care about my money. They don't care about my opinions, unless it effects my money and how much of it they get.

As fans we have 1 way to "vote" on how the Twins are doing. Our money. Giving them my money when they're not meeting my expectations doesn't make sense to me. But you do what you want with yours. I'm not telling you not to. But I do get it, despite your opinions on my spending habits. The Pohlads own a business. They're in that business to make money. I'm not going to help them make money just because. It is not my job to invest in the Minnesota Twins, that's the Pohlads job. When they had a product I felt was worth my money they got a lot of my money. Thousands of dollars a year worth of my money. They no longer have a product I feel is worth my money so they're not getting any of it. It's not my job to pay them to exist. But you can feel more than welcome to.

This conversation has run its course, though. So, I will be leaving it where it is. Agree to disagree is fine with me.

[Twinsrtheworst]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm sorry to have upset you so much, wasn't my intention. I do watch the Twins, including a good 75 minor league games a year on top of the major league games, but, no, I don't pay for Twins.tv or any other service that carries them. But the Pohlads don't care about my time, they care about my money. They don't care about my opinions, unless it effects my money and how much of it they get.

As fans we have 1 way to "vote" on how the Twins are doing. Our money. Giving them my money when they're not meeting my expectations doesn't make sense to me. But you do what you want with yours. I'm not telling you not to. But I do get it, despite your opinions on my spending habits. The Pohlads own a business. They're in that business to make money. I'm not going to help them make money just because. It is not my job to invest in the Minnesota Twins, that's the Pohlads job. When they had a product I felt was worth my money they got a lot of my money. Thousands of dollars a year worth of my money. They no longer have a product I feel is worth my money so they're not getting any of it. It's not my job to pay them to exist. But you can feel more than welcome to.

This conversation has run its course, though. So, I will be leaving it where it is. Agree to disagree is fine with me.

You definitely did not upset me, however you did try so please don’t say you didn’t try to be hateful.  Saying fans like me are the reason the Twins do not commit to winning is absurd, I just hope you see that. MY SUPPORT IS GEARED 100 PERCENT TO THE PLAYERS. I have made life long friends with. a few of them. I enjoy the game and am able to objectively separate my emotions and feeling from the owners to the players.  If you disagree with any of this, it’ becomes a you problem, as you are welcome to your opinion.