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[The Greatest Poster Alive]

Ain't that the truth. Plus, even if those reports are true, can you blame him for withholding info from the worst medical staff in MLB?

 

I'm convinced. The Twins used Slowey as a scapegoat to distract from growing rumors that TC is actually a bigfoot (which completely explains his raw animal-like power)

[jokin]

Originally Posted by The Greatest Poster Alive He simply wasn't good enough to start, and should have accepted his role like a man.

 

Quit painting Slowey like a victim. He's a professional baseball player not a martyr.

 

 

 

 

Sorry but this is the standard response and it is nonsense. The truth is Slowey didn't earn a spot and that's on him. What is not on him is having days to switch from a once every five days starter (for several years) to a late inning reliever who pitches 1-2 innings three out of four days. In this day and age that is a radical adjustment that most players would struggle with much less an injury prone guy with less than a week to prepare. If they had used him in a Swarzak like role - I could understand. I literally cannot remember a team doing a conversion like that with a week before the season and then act on it so fast. It was stupid and selfish by the Twins, Slowey was simply upset about an idiotic handling of his situation.

 

Going into 2011, here are some of the 2007-2010 collective numbers for Slowey and Blackburn:

 

Slowey K*9 6.9/ K% 18 /xFIP 4.16 /K*BB 4.60 /WHIP 1.28/WAR 7.3

 

Blackie K*9 5.6/ K%10.9/xFIP 4.46 /K*BB 2.17 /WHIP 1.39/WAR 5.6

[snepp]

It's amazing the excuses people will make for a AAAA pitcher who just couldn't hack it in the majors.

 

More or less amazing than the excuses typically trotted out for the front office?

[cmathewson]

I wish Slowey nothing but the best.

 

But I am sure glad we got rid of him when we did. I have little love for the medical staff at the time, but he didn't handle it well either and became a distraction for the team. The fact is, he hadn't pitched well even when healthy for some time prior to his departure.

 

When he butted heads with the coaching staff in addition to the medical staff, he was basically asking for it. He was given an opportunity to pitch out of the bullpen and he certainly did not embrace that. It was the logical choice for his career considering how poorly he pitched the third time through just about every order he faced. Again, he could have embraced the role. Instead, he complained of not being able to get loose.

 

Now we have the revisionist history, that we got rid of a great asset because he wasn't ground bally enough or whatever. Well he certainly hasn't lit the world on fire since his departure, not like R.A. Dickey or Matt Garza or Kyle Lohse or ... Three starts is what you call small samples.

[jokin]

I wish Slowey nothing but the best.

 

But I am sure glad we got rid of him when we did. I have little love for the medical staff at the time, but he didn't handle it well either and became a distraction for the team. The fact is, he hadn't pitched well even when healthy for some time prior to his departure.

 

When he butted heads with the coaching staff in addition to the medical staff, he was basically asking for it. He was given an opportunity to pitch out of the bullpen and he certainly did not embrace that. It was the logical choice for his career considering how poorly he pitched the third time through just about every order he faced. Again, he could have embraced the role. Instead, he complained of not being able to get loose.

 

Now we have the revisionist history, that we got rid of a great asset because he wasn't ground bally enough or whatever. Well he certainly hasn't lit the world on fire since his departure, not like R.A. Dickey or Matt Garza or Kyle Lohse or ... Three starts is what you call small samples.

 

Slowey wasn't a "great asset", but he was clearly better than Blackburn over the 4-year arc preceding 2011, and Blackburn who was supposedly "healthy" going into 2011 as opposed to Slowey, had seen his career essentially collapse in 2010.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

Slowey wasn't a "great asset", but he was clearly better than Blackburn over the 4-year arc preceding 2011, and Blackburn who was supposedly "healthy" going into 2011 as opposed to Slowey, had seen his career essentially collapse in 2010.

 

So the Twins picked the wrong starter about to stop producing meaningful innings to hitch their wagon to. The horror.

[cmathewson]

Slowey wasn't a "great asset", but he was clearly better than Blackburn over the 4-year arc preceding 2011, and Blackburn who was supposedly "healthy" going into 2011 as opposed to Slowey, had seen his career essentially collapse in 2010.

 

I will never argue in favor of Blackburn. That signing is one of the 10 worst moves in Twins history, just behind the Joe Mays signing. But at least in the Mays signing, they could blame ligament replacement. Blackburn just sucked (well, he did have bone chips and the wrist thing, but his peripherals weren't good even when his innings pitched and wins were).

 

Just because they screwed up with Blackburn doesn't mean they should have screwed up with Slowey. I'm glad he's doing better. But he would have been horrible the last few years if we had signed him to a deal comparable to Blackburn's.

[TheLeviathan]

Not quite a comparable situation... but Aroldis Chapman went from being stretched out as a starter to a closer in a similar time frame.

 

Liriano went to a similar role mid-season last year, then went back into the starting rotation.

 

It's amazing the excuses people will make for a AAAA pitcher who just couldn't hack it in the majors.

 

I'm not making an "excuse" - I'm stating a fact of mismanagement of his preparation. But let's look at your examples:

 

Liriano was given a week off from starting before he relieved - Slowey was converted to the bullpen at the end of ST and immediately moved to the role culminating in three appearances in four games at the start of the season. Liriano waited three days for his second bullpen appearance and pitched back to back before getting another 5 days before his next appearance. Apples and oranges.

 

Chapman has BEEN A CLOSER FOR THREE YEARS.

 

Again, find me a career starter that was asked, a week before the season, to switch to being a reliever and then immediately put in a back-of-the-bullpen stopper/workhorse. Not to mention this was a guy with injury problems already. (That's on him too, but it's still a factor the Twins should've considered)

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

I'm not making an "excuse" - I'm stating a fact of mismanagement of his preparation. But let's look at your examples:

 

Liriano was given a week off from starting before he relieved - Slowey was converted to the bullpen at the end of ST and immediately moved to the role culminating in three appearances in four games at the start of the season. Liriano waited three days for his second bullpen appearance and pitched back to back before getting another 5 days before his next appearance. Apples and oranges.

 

Chapman has BEEN A CLOSER FOR THREE YEARS.

 

Again, find me a career starter that was asked, a week before the season, to switch to being a reliever and then immediately put in a back-of-the-bullpen stopper/workhorse. Not to mention this was a guy with injury problems already. (That's on him too, but it's still a factor the Twins should've considered)

 

oh the poor thing... used 3 times in 4 days! what's next? Prison camp?

[TheLeviathan]

oh the poor thing... used 3 times in 4 days! what's next? Prison camp?

 

Are you intentionally missing the point? Look, baseball is what it is. We can all long for the tough guy days but starters aren't built or conditioned for that anymore. And a fragile guy like Slowey whose big league career was hanging in the balance had a right to be perturbed about his usage. It's not a difficult point.

 

I doubt his current performance will continue, but I said at the time and I repeat now that the Twins were far more in the wrong in this situation than Slowey. And his subsequent injury (a fact - it happened) verifies his concerns.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

Are you intentionally missing the point? Look, baseball is what it is. We can all long for the tough guy days but starters aren't built or conditioned for that anymore. And a fragile guy like Slowey whose big league career was hanging in the balance had a right to be perturbed about his usage. It's not a difficult point.

 

I doubt his current performance will continue, but I said at the time and I repeat now that the Twins were far more in the wrong in this situation than Slowey. And his subsequent injury (a fact - it happened) verifies his concerns.

 

Slowey had a right to privately go to management, the public and defiant nature he chose to voice those concerns lost him any right to sympathy for how he was treated.

 

Slowey complained about the bullpen role before he was even used in the pen. His attitude likely affected his preparation for the role, and I have just as much evidence to state he intentionally prepared poorly for his role as you have in claiming that Slowey's injury was in any way related to his usage (none).

[TheLeviathan]

Slowey had a right to privately go to management, the public and defiant nature he chose to voice those concerns lost him any right to sympathy for how he was treated.

 

I'm sorry, could you back this up? I never remember hearing public defiant comments. I heard a lot of Twins talking heads go public ABOUT Slowey, but never him directly. So maybe I missed something but let's see what you are basing this off of.

 

I admit his injury could have been indirectly attributed to the switch in usage, with his past injuries that is definitely possible. But I know this - I wouldn't feel comfortable switching a guy into a Perkins/Burton type only a week after we decided he wasn't a starter. Just because you can pitch 7 innings in one game doesn't mean you can pitch 1-2 innings once a day for three out of four days. In fact, I'd have to imagine that is a very different kind of arm usage.

[Riverbrian]

I'm not gonna comment on Slowey's character... Cuz... I have no idea.

 

I'm not gonna comment on the Twins handling of the situation... Cuz... I have no idea.

 

I'm not gonna comment on Slowey's health or lack of or the possible reasons why... Cuz... I have no idea.

 

The only thing I know for sure is that he didn't fit into the Twins plans for whatever reason(s) and he didn't fit into the Rockies or Indians Plans either.

 

If Slowey had more talent... He'd certainly be a part of someone's plans. Attitude would have been tolerated... Health would have been waited for... One of the three teams would have seen that talent and held on to it with both hands.

 

I'm reasonably certain about that because I'm pretty sure that teams don't intentionally throw away talented pitching.

[cmathewson]

The most important thing is not how he's doing now, it's how he was doing then. And by all accounts, he was doing poorly. So we got rid of him, as did three other teams. Like I said, I hope he thrives now. But guys get a limited number of opportunities with a team before the team decides to go in a different direction.

 

Guys who ran out of chances with the Twins but ended up succeeding with some other team are too numerous to list. Mark Portugal and Paul Abbott come to mind. This past Sunday, Lavell had a list of former Twins on other teams that shocked me. Brendan Harris? Really? And I see how he even hit a homer off Correia tonight.

 

It's part of the game. Guys lost it, leave, find it again, and lose it again, only to find it again with some other team. Octavio Dotel has pitched for everybody except the Twins it seems. None of his former teams have any regrets.

[gunnarthor]

Not only that, but one of the reasons Baker wasn't ever considered for the bullpen was because they knew he'd have the same problems Slowey had doing it...but with him it was okay to not even try it. Slowey goes to the pen, tries it, he has issues with it, and when he speaks up, he's slammed. Slowey, I believe, also had the best ERA of all the ones in the 'ST Battle' for the rotation. Put that all together, and I think he had every right to be ticked off.

 

Posts like this are pretty easy to check. Baker was considered for the pen (and later that season, he accepted it) but out pitched Slowey for the 5th spot. Slowey did have the best ERA of the pitchers in that ST but it was with a pretty big caveat. He had a 1.69 era in 2 starts (8 games) and pitched 16 innings. Blackburn had a 1.73 in 6 starts (7 games) and 26 ip. Frankly, every pitcher except Liriano had a &tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+pitching&sectionType=sp&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1366082527643&game_type=%27S%27&season=2011&season_type=ANY&league_code=%27MLB%27&playerType=ALL&sportCode=%27mlb%27&split=&team_id=142&active_sw=&position=%271%27&page_type=SortablePlayer&sortOrder=%27desc%27&sortColumn=ip&results=&perPage=50&timeframe=&last_x_days=&extended=0"]pretty good ST that year.

[ThePuck]

Posts like this are pretty easy to check. Baker was considered for the pen (and later that season, he accepted it) but out pitched Slowey for the 5th spot. Slowey did have the best ERA of the pitchers in that ST but it was with a pretty big caveat. He had a 1.69 era in 2 starts (8 games) and pitched 16 innings. Blackburn had a 1.73 in 6 starts (7 games) and 26 ip. Frankly, every pitcher except Liriano had a &tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+pitching&sectionType=sp&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1366082527643&game_type=%27S%27&season=2011&season_type=ANY&league_code=%27MLB%27&playerType=ALL&sportCode=%27mlb%27&split=&team_id=142&active_sw=&position=%271%27&page_type=SortablePlayer&sortOrder=%27desc%27&sortColumn=ip&results=&perPage=50&timeframe=&last_x_days=&extended=0"]pretty good ST that year.

 

What of my post do you think you debunked by posting this?

 

Let's try this article

 

Twins settle on Scott Baker as fifth starter, put Kevin Slowey in bullpen | twinsbaseball.com: News

 

some quotes:

 

Anderson said the club weighed several factors in deciding who should win the position, including the fact that Baker is coming off surgery in October to remove bone chips and spurs from his right elbow.

 

IT TAKES LONGER FOR BAKER TO WARM UP because of his offseason surgery, and he has only served as a starter this spring -- posting a 2.84 ERA with 11 strikeouts and three walks over 12 2/3 innings in four outings.

 

"I think it's a logical thing with Bake coming off elbow surgery," Anderson said, "and Slowey is healthy, and he's done it in the past.

 

Anderson also said: 'Pitching coach Rick Anderson notified Slowey on Monday, and said Slowey was willing to embrace his new role as a relief pitcher.

 

"Unbelievable," Anderson said of Slowey's attitude. "We talked to him about it and he said, 'Game on. Anything you want, I'm on board and can do it. I just want to help us win.' So it's awesome."

[gunnarthor]

Going into 2011, here are some of the 2007-2010 collective numbers for Slowey and Blackburn:

 

Slowey K*9 6.9/ K% 18 /xFIP 4.16 /K*BB 4.60 /WHIP 1.28/WAR 7.3

 

Blackie K*9 5.6/ K%10.9/xFIP 4.46 /K*BB 2.17 /WHIP 1.39/WAR 5.6

 

That's one way to look at it but it ignores that Blackie was able to stay healthy and throw over 100 more innings. And bWAR has them tied in value. And it also includes time before Slowey got hurt which is sorta relevant if you want to decide who pitches for you going forward. The fact that Blackburn was the better pitcher in 2011 sorta supports that.

[gunnarthor]

What of my post do you think you debunked by posting this?

 

The part where you claim the Twins never considered Baker for the bullpen and the part where you used ERA (and ignored IP and starts) to suggest that Slowey had earned a starting spot over the other pitchers in spring training.

[gunnarthor]

I'm convinced. The Twins used Slowey as a scapegoat to distract from growing rumors that TC is actually a bigfoot (which completely explains his raw animal-like power)

 

And the reason they needed to put Swarzak on the staff!

[gunnarthor]

More or less amazing than the excuses typically trotted out for the front office?

 

Far more amazing. The FO at least had a track record of success.

[ThePuck]

The part where you claim the Twins never considered Baker for the bullpen and the part where you used ERA (and ignored IP and starts) to suggest that Slowey had earned a starting spot over the other pitchers in spring training.

 

yeah, except if you read the article I posted a link to and the quote I provided from it, it's doubtful they never really considered Baker for the bullpen spot. It also showed Slowey whole-heartedly accepted the move to the bullpen. I can re-post it again, if you'd like.

 

And I didn't ignore IP or starts. If anything that info how they had tagged Slowey all along for the bullpen and that he never had a shot at the rotation

[jokin]

That's one way to look at it but it ignores that Blackie was able to stay healthy and throw over 100 more innings. And bWAR has them tied in value. And it also includes time before Slowey got hurt which is sorta relevant if you want to decide who pitches for you going forward. The fact that Blackburn was the better pitcher in 2011 sorta supports that.

 

Uhh, I intended to only include the time that Slowey was healthy, none of the time when he wasn't- it's a direct apples-to-apples comparison timeline of the first 4 full years of their careers, Slowey's effectiveness as a starter is better, Blackburn was better as a "healthy" but very mediocre and inconsistent innings-eater, Slowey, as history has demonstrated, had something very wrong with him in April-May of 2011- with the level of Twins culpability up for debate, so you sorta got it completly wrong. In addition Blackburn was horrible in 2010 (he was ranked 99th out of 102 SPs by Fangraphs with a 5.42 ERA) and though he started OK in 2011, he ended up so ineffectively bad in July and August of that year (an ERA just under 7.00- every start was a struggle to even get to the 5th inning) he was shut down for the year just past mid-August and obviously got even worse last year, so epically bad (7.39 ERA) that he most likely, at age 31, is done for his career. By contrast, Slowey, at age 28, appears to have become healthy enough again to at least have a small-to-medium chance at reviving his career.

[PseudoSABR]

Seriously, the the treatment of Slowey is common place among ML baseball. Get over it. Do you think the Mets fans are boo-hooing the treatment of Pelfry? Do you think Colorado or Cleveland is basking in their own tears over losing Slowey? Just stop. Again, this thread is nothing but strutting egos and shaming real fans. It's a shame really. It's the same people who do this crap over and over...

[jokin]

So the Twins picked the wrong starter about to stop producing meaningful innings to hitch their wagon to. The horror.

 

Uhh, quite an expensive mistake for a club in the midst of returning to their spendthrift ways.

[jokin]

Seriously, the the treatment of Slowey is common place among ML baseball. Get over it. Do you think the Mets fans are boo-hooing the treatment of Pelfry? Do you think Colorado or Cleveland is basking in their own tears over losing Slowey? Just stop. Again, this thread is nothing but strutting egos and shaming real fans. It's a shame really. It's the same people who do this crap over and over...

 

I guess you count yourself among the "real fans" then? It's a "shame to be shaming" you? Do I have that right? Is someone forcing you to read the thread or enter the discussion? I think you are in the midst of some projection here, as it appears to be you strutting your ego about what you deem important, or not. And then finish with the scatalogical reference. Nice.

[PseudoSABR]

I guess you count yourself among the "real fans" then? It's a "shame to be shaming" you? Do I have that right? Is someone forcing you to read the thread or enter the discussion? I think you are in the midst of some projection here, as it appears to be you strutting your ego about what you deem important, or not. And then finish with the scatalogical reference. Nice.

I was wrong to use phrase like "real" fans. Who knows what that means? My bad. But I still contend that this thread was born out of indecency and strange ego. I'd rather not see this kind thing, but maybe we're all fine with it, which strikes me as very sad.

[jokin]

I will never argue in favor of Blackburn. That signing is one of the 10 worst moves in Twins history, just behind the Joe Mays signing. But at least in the Mays signing, they could blame ligament replacement. Blackburn just sucked (well, he did have bone chips and the wrist thing, but his peripherals weren't good even when his innings pitched and wins were).

 

Just because they screwed up with Blackburn doesn't mean they should have screwed up with Slowey. I'm glad he's doing better. But he would have been horrible the last few years if we had signed him to a deal comparable to Blackburn's.

 

I don't think anyone has ever advocated signing Slowey to a long-term deal. His salary peaked in 2010 at $2.75M and he wasn't in any position to sign a long term deal and his health concerns precluded any arbitration awards, he's not even elibible for FA until 2015. meanwhile Blackie has done less than nothing over these last 3 years for a grand total of $13.25M.

[old nurse]

yeah, except if you read the article I posted a link to and the quote I provided from it, it's doubtful they never really considered Baker for the bullpen spot. It also showed Slowey whole-heartedly accepted the move to the bullpen. I can re-post it again, if you'd like.

 

And I didn't ignore IP or starts. If anything that info how they had tagged Slowey all along for the bullpen and that he never had a shot at the rotation

He accepted the move but was unhappy later. Randball at the time had the story

[ThePuck]

He accepted the move but was unhappy later. Randball at the time had the story

 

yes, he was unhappy later...but he didn't complain and whine about it right away...he accepted it, tried it, but he had issues doing it...so then he voiced the issues.

[old nurse]

I don't think anyone has ever advocated signing Slowey to a long-term deal. His salary peaked in 2010 at $2.75M and he wasn't in any position to sign a long term deal and his health concerns precluded any arbitration awards, he's not even elibible for FA until 2015. meanwhile Blackie has done less than nothing over these last 3 years for a grand total of $13.25M.

Hindsight can make one look so smart. The mistake of signing Blackburn to a long term deal was based on the notion he was going to stay healthy and effective. It blew up on them. Had Slowey been able to pitch later into games or stay healthy the Twins might have signed him to a three year deal after his third year.