Making a Murderer SPOILERS

[mikecgrimes]

I figured this thread should be started before we spoil the ending in the other thread. Heres something interesting when I first saw this I thought maybe he had a connection to making the film until I remembered he's on the other side.

 

http://www.packers.com/team/staff/Mike-Halbach/bc32b029-52e7-4e07-b172-f9580ded39f3

[Vanimal46]

I will say prior to watching this series, I had no prior knowledge to this case. If I were to just watch the news, and read stories in the paper, I would have thought Avery was absolutely guilty. After watching the series, I'm not convinced he's guilty by any means.

 

There's a couple of alternative suspects that I'm shocked the police did not investigate further:

 

-Bobby Dassey and the step father Scott. Considering they were their own eye witnesses saying they drove past each other near the Avery property around the time of the murder. Bobby said he was on the way hunting, so a nice story if he had a weapon on him. Both of them are also extremely passionate about putting Steven behind bars for good.

 

-Teresa's ex boyfriend: That dude's story is quite suspicious to me. One of his "friends" was living with Teresa at the time, and he was okay with it? I don't think so. He also had the story that he "guessed" her user name and password to access her phone. Once he hacked it, those voice mails after she was murdered disappeared. I would be willing to bet that's not his first time accessing her accounts without her knowledge.

 

-Unknown suspect. Teresa was a well known and liked person from the perception of her in the series. Someone else could have committed this murder, and disposed of her body on the Avery property.

 

What I think happened: Teresa was blocked in leaving the Avery property, and forced into seclusion where she was murdered. Her body was transported in a barrel to the Avery property. The police convinces themselves it was Avery who did it, and Detectives made sure the proper evidence was placed in order to get him behind bars.

[Willihammer]

I wonder how the 2nd Avery trial would have gone if Steven had testified. IIRC we weren't given any insight into the decision not to. Any theories about that?

 

The most confusing thing to me is how any of the evidence obtained by Manitowac staff was even allowed into the trial. Blood, key, bullet, etc.

[Vanimal46]

 

I wonder how the 2nd Avery trial would have gone if Steven had testified. IIRC we weren't given any insight into the decision not to. Any theories about that?

 

The most confusing thing to me is how any of the evidence obtained by Manitowac staff was even allowed into the trial. Blood, key, bullet, etc.

I assume he didn't testify because he really didn't know what happened with Teresa, and was advised that him testifying would only hurt his case. 

You bring up a great point about using evidence obtained by Manitowac staff for the trial. That should have never happened with their past history, and actually handed over the investigation to someone else.. I suppose if they couldn't use the evidence they found, they wouldn't have a case to convict Avery of the crime. 

I found an interesting article that mentions that 2 jurors in the case "includes a man whose son works for the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department and a man whose wife works for the Manitowoc County clerk of courts office." Very interesting to note since the main claim in Avery's defense was his blood was obtained in that clerk's office and used for planting in the Rav4.

[Willihammer]

Yeah I remember thinking during the jury selection process, why couldn't thay have shipped in 12 people from St Croix county who would have been watching MSP news? Maybe that is too far away to be considered a jury of his "peers?"

 

One thing I noticed when Avery told the judge he wouldn't testify, was that he had some dry mouth going. Not sure if that was a tell of some kind. Maybe he was just thirsty.

[Shane Wahl]

Is there anything in her phone records about the damn calls she was apparently getting for some time before all this? There was testimony from a co-worker that she was getting certain calls. So . . . from . . . ? Did I miss the answer to that?

[Shane Wahl]

The ex-boyfriend has some kind of motive. Bobby and Scott do not.

The defense proposes two of Steve's brothers as potential suspects as well, given their past history (yikes) and the fact that they were or easily could have been around at the time. The fact that the car wasn't crushed and hidden effectively, the fact that the burning was done in such a way and the remains disposed of where they were points to someone like the ex-boyfriend.

[Vanimal46]

 

The fact that the car wasn't crushed and hidden effectively, the fact that the burning was done in such a way and the remains disposed of where they were points to someone like the ex-boyfriend.

Yes, this. It made no sense to me that a guy like Steven, who grew up in this salvage yard, would not think to use the crusher to hide any potential evidence. 

I never read or heard anything about the calls Teresa was getting prior to her murder. But I think we can piece together that puzzle. I could see the ex-boyfriend making *67 calls to her and leaving creepy voice mails as well. The fact that he already admitted to accessing her voice mail by guessing her username and password gives me the hunch that he was not over her after the relationship, and wanted to keep tabs on her without her knowledge. 

[Willihammer]

A couple thing the series really drives home for me-

 

1. the unreliability of memory. Many examples throughout but the best is probably the first victim who identified Avery as her attacker, mistakenly, and testified that he was the culprit. Eyewitnesses, investigators and police mis-remembering their own words or saying something to the effect of "I wouldn't have said it like that," even when those conversations were recorded.

 

2. how easily suggestible people are, especially kids. Brendan Dassey's confession. The lab tester. The 7 jurors who initially voted "not guilty" and then changed their vote after deliberations (possibly there was compelling evidence not presented in the documentary?)

 

3. how heavily justice relies on fair and competent judges. As Strang points out at the end, it seems ridiculous that the same judge who would grant Dassey a new public defender would not later give him a re-trial that throws out the evidence his first lawyer obtained (on behalf of the prosecution no less). The whole Dassey situation, from the investigators tricking him into confession, the absent public defender, the judge who doesn't recognize his own inconsistency, is probably the most outrageous and disappointing thing to me.

[biggentleben]

There are some compelling things out there regarding stuff the documentary left out as well:

 

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

 

I'm not as inclined to believe for sure he DIDN'T do it, but there's still some massive BS going on with the corruption of the police there.

[mikecgrimes]

 

The ex-boyfriend has some kind of motive. Bobby and Scott do not.

The defense proposes two of Steve's brothers as potential suspects as well, given their past history (yikes) and the fact that they were or easily could have been around at the time. The fact that the car wasn't crushed and hidden effectively, the fact that the burning was done in such a way and the remains disposed of where they were points to someone like the ex-boyfriend.

 

I'm confused why people assume a crushed car wouldn't have been found?  The reality is it was already difficult to find it among that many other cars, and thats only if they started looking on that property.  It might not be easy to identify the crushed car but once the bones were found chances are someone would have found it.  It might be odd, but it sure isn't a point in favor of the defense.  

 

Think about it if you know how to use a car crusher and you just murdered someone the last thing you want to do is crush the evidence unless that somehow helps you to eliminate the evidence which as far as I know it wouldn't.

[Willihammer]

Here is a clip from Kiss the Girls, possibly the scene Dassey had in mind when he drew the picture for the defense/prosecution investigator. Evidently the killer doesn't cut the girls' hair in the books but he does in the movie adaptation at some point.

 

[Shane Wahl]

From that site Ben posted:

 

"In the months leading up to Halbach's disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

-- Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn't want to go out to Avery's trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.

-- On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

-- The bullet with Halbach's DNA on it came from Avery's gun, which always hung above his bed.

-- Here's the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey's illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach's car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don't believe the police would plant -- or know to plant -- that evidence."

I would like to hear more about all of this in confirmation. The sweat DNA . . . really? Is that verified?

[Shane Wahl]

Lawyer friends of mine have said that this all amounts to not very much.

 

Anyway, the guilty person might just be a different Avery.

 

The likelihood, in my estimation, that one or more of the "alternative four" is/are guilty dwarfs the likelihood that Steven Avery is guilty.

[Vanimal46]

Reason #1193485 why this trial never should have been in Wisconsin.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/making-murderer-filmmakers-just-revealed-145808049.html 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm confused why people assume a crushed car wouldn't have been found?  The reality is it was already difficult to find it among that many other cars, and thats only if they started looking on that property.  It might not be easy to identify the crushed car but once the bones were found chances are someone would have found it.  It might be odd, but it sure isn't a point in favor of the defense.  

 

Think about it if you know how to use a car crusher and you just murdered someone the last thing you want to do is crush the evidence unless that somehow helps you to eliminate the evidence which as far as I know it wouldn't.

Except that if you don't find the car, you don't get the eight day search warrant to tear up the property and find the bones.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Why was there a women being ordered to go to this property multiple times to photograph a trailer?

 

Not watching the series but reading up on the case.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Lawyer friends of mine have said that this all amounts to not very much.

 

Concur.

[Shane Wahl]

 

Except that if you don't find the car, you don't get the eight day search warrant to tear up the property and find the bones.

 

Wait, are you done watching now, Brock?

[Shane Wahl]

 

 

Why was there a women being ordered to go to this property multiple times to photograph a trailer?

Not watching the series but reading up on the case.

 

The latest time was to take pictures of a van. I imagine that maybe there is an ongoing thing with Auto Trader and Avery's Salvage in terms of taking pictures of vehicles. I didn't really understand it, either.

[Vanimal46]

I imagine they try to sell cars that arrive to the salvage yard on Auto Trader before they go ahead and scrap it for parts and crush it.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Wait, are you done watching now, Brock?

Not yet, stumbled into this thread on accident and saw that single post.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Right, thanks. It's interesting how much this series is being talked about right now. 

[mikecgrimes]

 

Except that if you don't find the car, you don't get the eight day search warrant to tear up the property and find the bones.

 

Fair point, although it seems like that property was going to be the center of the investigation at some point with or without the car, in fact if it takes several months to find the bones the case against Steve Avery is if anything easier as the lack of other evidence wouldn't be questioned as much as time goes on.  I guess my main point is if the car is crushed and ends up being found by investigators it eliminates most everyone else as potential suspects especially if not everyone on the lot operated the crusher or had access to operate the crusher without anyone else knowing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Fair point, although it seems like that property was going to be the center of the investigation at some point with or without the car, in fact if it takes several months to find the bones the case against Steve Avery is if anything easier as the lack of other evidence wouldn't be questioned as much as time goes on.  I guess my main point is if the car is crushed and ends up being found by investigators it eliminates most everyone else as potential suspects especially if not everyone on the lot operated the crusher or had access to operate the crusher without anyone else knowing.

Finding the crushed car probably means he's guilty but it'd be a lot harder to find a crushed car, particularly one with its plates and VIN removed.

[Brock Beauchamp]

After finishing the series, I believe Avery was guilty of murder... But I don't know if I'm convinced enough of his guilt to convict him if I'm on the jury.

 

As for Dassey... wow. That entire situation is a travesty of justice. None of that confession evidence should have been admitted into court, as it all stemmed from his lawyer actively working against his own client.

 

Hey, he could be guilty. The kid may be a sociopath based on his complete lack of emotion during any point of the confession, trial, ruling, etc... But that has nothing to do with him getting a fair trial. That's his right.

 

But overall, I wish people were talking less about Avery and more about the system that treated him so unfairly over a 22 year period. I suspect Avery is guilty, there's simply too much coincidental evidence at every point of the way... But I care less about Steve Avery (and Brendan Dassey) than I do about the horrible situation they were put in by lazy, corrupt, arrogant officials. There are supposed to be checks and balances in the system. The police are supposed to follow the rules and do their job. The DA is supposed to monitor the police and keep them on track. The defense attorney is supposed to doggedly protect his client from everyone. The judge is supposed to throw out incorrectly-gathered evidence and make sure the defendant gets a fair trial. The review board is supposed to be the safety net in case all of that fails.

 

None of that happened. None.

 

And a big reason why that happened is because our justice system is broken if you're poor and stupid (not even so much uneducated as stupid... The system loves to exploit those who don't understand it... You have a fighting chance if you're merely uneducated but you're screwed if you're stupid).

[Shane Wahl]

I am interested as to why you think Avery actually did it. Obviously, there should be a new trial--anyone should be able to see that when looking at everything. But what about the actual evidence points to his guilt, like, at all?

[Shane Wahl]

I mean it is hard for me to believe that Colburn didn't move the Rav 4, and that Lenk didn't plant that key.

 

The lack of blood . . . anywhere. Steve Avery is not Dexter!

 

The only thing I can think of is somehow she is transported alive to wherever the one bone or whatever was found in a separate burn pit (was this in a gravel pit or something?) next to or on the edge of the property. Killed there, burned there, and then the remains are moved. Clearly Avery is not going to move the remains back to his own house.

There is simply no way that she was shot in that garage or in that house or in her vehicle.

[Shane Wahl]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3yj1v4/some_thoughts_from_a_lawyer_friend/

[Shane Wahl]

 

Finding the crushed car probably means he's guilty but it'd be a lot harder to find a crushed car, particularly one with its plates and VIN removed.

 

And the car could be stripped before crushing. And strewn all about the place. Or, you know, if Steven Avery actually did this . . . DRIVEN away to some other damn place and not on his property. Good lord. He is not a bright guy, certainly, but come on.