Catchers effect on pitching prospects?

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

I just read the "push" article on the Navarreto, and while it was talking about his defense I started to wonder about how minor league catchers defensive strengths and weaknesses may effect the stats and impressions of minor league pitching prospects. 

 

Say a system is stocked full of catchers with good framing abilities, would this unduly cause that systems pitching prospects to have better prospect views of him? Maybe this has been well accounted and adjusted for, but would believe that would be hard to do. Not sure if this has been covered on any sites or here.

[gunnarthor]

Say a system is stocked full of catchers with good framing abilities, would this unduly cause that systems pitching prospects to have better prospect views of him? Maybe this has been well accounted and adjusted for, but would believe that would be hard to do. Not sure if this has been covered on any sites or here.

I'm not sure. My first guess would be that the various quality of umpiring would have a bigger impact than framing.  I suppose one could look to see if a team gets a higher than expected % of called strikes - I think some sites track those statistics.

[Seth Stohs]

I'd agree that the quality of umpiring is probably a bigger factor, along with the quality of the hitters. 

 

That said, I think that catchers can certainly help their pitchers. I talked to several of those Cedar Rapids pitchers who give a lot of credit to Mitch Garver and Michael Quesada for working with them. 

 

But, the pitching coaches and managers also need some credit for some philosophy. The catcher's job is then to take that game plan and philosophy and put it ito a game call. Some college catchers call their own pitches. Many don't. The Twins have their catchers call pitches as part of their learning. They won't second guess them, per se, but they spend a lot of time just asking what the thought process was for various pitches. Remember also that the catchers may also be told, I need Pitcher A to throw at least 15 changeups today, so that has to factor in. There is a lot of that kind of stuff going on, especially in the lower levels. All the while, they continue to work on hip flexibility and pitch framing and positioning and more... Oh yeah, they are also trying to work on their hitting.

 

It's the toughest position to really judge from a prospect standpoint because there is just so much that goes into it. 

[old nurse]

. The problem that most pitchers have that ruin their success is the ball never making it to the catcher.  To bring the pitcher to the level that it matters if it Lecroy vs Lucroy catching would usually mean a plane ticket to the next higher level.

[jay]

Say a system is stocked full of catchers with good framing abilities, would this unduly cause that systems pitching prospects to have better prospect views of him?

Absolutely, it can be a factor. You'd almost expect it to be a bigger deal in the minors as the defensive skill of catchers has greater variation while teams are seeing if the prospect can be a catcher. At the MLB level, there's a higher bar of minimum capability.

 

The impact of umpires shouldn't matter all that much within a league (assuming each ump sees each team a sufficient number of times), but would make it more challenging to get accurate or comparable framing numbers across leagues. Umpires aren't considered an issue in assessing framing / catcher defense at the MLB level because there's enough sample size and exposure across the league to each umpire. Not true in MiLB.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

I'd agree that the quality of umpiring is probably a bigger factor, along with the quality of the hitters. 

 

I am sure those variables play a role, amongst other things. However, other teams pitchers are facing the same hitters and umpires in their leagues, so that should all balance out for the most part. But, if some of those teams have offensive-minded catchers trying to pass as catchers, while other teams in those leagues have fine defensive catchers that also frame well, this would be a variable that is team exclusive- right? 

 

Would be interesting to look at the best catching prospects, and defensive catcher systems, to see how that effects the pitchers that throw to them statistically and prospect opinion-wise.

[Thrylos]

Minor leagues are development leagues.

 

Yes. Indeed.  A catcher who can call a better game, "frame" the ball better, throw out runners can make a pitcher look better. That will not make the pitcher actually better or even help his development.

 

To develop as a pitcher it should not matter where you are throwing at the best catcher ever, at a rookie, or even at a tire that hangs off a tree in your back yard.  It is all about your stuff.  Catchers can help with the numbers (maybe) but they cannot help with the stuff...

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

Minor leagues are development leagues.

 

Yes. Indeed.  A catcher who can call a better game, "frame" the ball better, throw out runners can make a pitcher look better. That will not make the pitcher actually better or even help his development.

 

To develop as a pitcher it should not matter where you are throwing at the best catcher ever, at a rookie, or even at a tire that hangs off a tree in your back yard.  It is all about your stuff.  Catchers can help with the numbers (maybe) but they cannot help with the stuff...

 

Yup, I totally agree with this, but I was not implying that at all. My question was if this would cause prospect evaluators/scouts to be higher on pitching prospects benefiting from this. 

 

Not sure how one would even be able to answer my question. Maybe identify the minor leagues best defensive catchers at each level, and then see if pitching prospects pitching to them rose in prospect rankings the following year? Suppose the same could be done with the worst catchers at each level and their pitching mates? 

 

Just thought it might slightly play a role with some, and people wouldn't even realize it. 

[jimmer]

Framing is a myth :-)

 

Last night I was watching a tidbit on Yadier Molina and how Cardinals pitchers numbers were MUCH better with him catching than without and he is considered a quality framer (along with just an overall great defensive catcher).

 

Having said that, lots of things effect pitching across the board including the defense behind them.  As far as scouting pitching prospects, I believe what you are talking about is why scouts put more value on swinging strikeouts as opposed to called strikeouts.