Gardy's Club Influence

[twinsnorth49]

And I'd never say that Gardy is a bad manager, but when I hear things like "Gardy gets the most out of average players" I don't think that gives enough credit to the players themselves. The early 2000's Twins may not have been the most talented bunch, but they were rock-solid fundamentally, and that has more to do with their work ethic than Gardy's instruction, IMO.

I completely agree.

[twinsnorth49]

Sounds like we are arguing about 2 sides of the same point. I never implied that a manager can take a non-talented individual and make him a HOFer. I simply said that manager CAN influence how guys play. I think it can be both positive and negative. Your point regarding Valencia is interesting, because last year Gardenhire threw the guy under the bus every chance he had. Who knows what kind of influence that had on him, this year he tried a different approach, was it right? I don't know. But I do know that managing people is more than just telling them what to do, it's about getting people to buy in to the idea that doing it the right way is the best way to do things, and a one size fits all approach doesn't work. Talent has a huge impact on how guys perform at the major league level, I'd argue that you can't make it the majors without talent, and you probably can't make it to the HOF without having way more talent than 99.9% of the population. But I'd also argue that we see lot's of "talented" guys fail in the majors, do they all fail because lack of talent? I really think there's a mental aspect we'll never be able to measure. You can't argue Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins winning for a decade and then that he has no responsibility when the team completely fails over the last two years. If manager's have virtually no impact on the success or failure of a team, why do major league teams continue to pay guys millions of dollars a year to do "nothing". If they can hire any Joe of the street and get the same results, wouldn't at least one franchise had figured that out by now, and we see a contests for manager for the year - win and manage the Twins for $75,000 this year? I think most franchises have figured out that the Manager does have "some" level of impact and because of that they try to hire guys they think will improve their chances of winning. I will repeat that talent at the major league level is more important, but that being able to extract the most out of that talent is the manager's job, and some are better at it than others, just like some guys are better at laying bricks than others.

I didn't say "no impact", I said "minimal impact" and that refers to the outcome of the game once it starts. Simply put, they don't play. I agree fully that Gardenhire and many managers don't deserve the heaps of praise they get when their teams win and most don't deserve the heaps of abuse when they lose. Obviously wherever the manager's influence mainly lies Gardy had an awful lot of it in the past decade, what's changed other than the player's.

 

Yeah, Gardy threw Valencia under the bus enough to play him in 154 games last year. If he had a real choice I'm sure it would have been to throw him in front of it at 100 mph.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I guess I'm wondering if it just makes sense to make a change (after the season) for the sake of freshness. Gardy has done well (I know some question that) but he has been there longer than any other current serving manager (with the exception of Sciosia). Perhaps his approach and "voice" has just gotten a bit stale. I am a minister by trade, and I see a parallel with serving a church. While there are many pastors who serve 20,30, even 40 years in one place, most of the research shows that after 10-15 years in one place you do hit a point of diminishing returns. It's easy to fall into habits and patterns that may or may not work for the future; it's easy to get comfortable and get stale. It's good for the church and for the pastor to move on in different directions, so both can continue to grow.

[dadawg41]

and where is gardenhires talent? in az. colorado, washington, detroit, chicago, LA, and wherever else the front office decided to send them. let me guess joe torre when he managed the yankees couldnt squeeze anymore talent out of his players either!?!?! put the blame where the blame is due... THE FRONT OFFICE!!!

[one_eyed_jack]

I agree that the Twins awful record is much better explained by a lack of talent than poor managing.

 

However, I think manager's can have more than a negligible impact of the team. I mean if it makes no difference one way or the other, why not hire a fan off the street? I'm sure many posters here would be willing to do the job for a mere fraction of Gardy's salary.

 

Manager's make in-game decisions that obviously impact the outcome.

 

But there's all the other stuff too. They've got to make sure that guys don't get too high after wins and too low after losses. They've got to stand up to their players to umpires and the press. They've got to maintain control of the clubhouse. It's impossible to quantify this impact, and I'm certainly not close enough to it to measure it.

 

But I think we've seen situations where players responded very differently to one manager than another. The Orioles seemed to taked on a whole new attitude when Showalter came in and took over. Meanwhile, in Houston not loo long ago, you really got the sense that a bunch of players couldn't wait for Cecil Cooper to get canned.

 

Again, I don't know how much this stuff really comes into play, but I think it's more than trivial.

[dadawg41]

i agree with that part but houston and baltimore didnt make any moves like the front office has done with the twins.

[Top Gun]

If the team fails you can't fire the team. The manager takes the hit, no matter if it is his fault or not. That's baseball, that's all sports.

[ltwedt]

For the most part, good teams will win in spite of what the manager does or does not do. That said, the manager does impact games by appropriately jerking a pitcher or leaving him in too long, or by favoring a player by playing him when he should not be in the lineup - (see Danny Valencia, Trevor Plouff, Matt Tolbert, et al). I also do not think that managers, especially Gardy, have a lot to say about who is sent down, or called up, but mostly try to play with the hand they are dealt. He baffles me with his moves at times, but I believe that he is a pretty good manager who could be a bit more stern with some of the younger players at times. His infatuation (or maybe his unbridled fear of no DH) with Butera is maddening, but hey - it's his team to run, and he does a pretty good job.

 

Now, when the fire him or keep him question comes up about Terry Ryan, I'll have a lot more to say!

[one_eyed_jack]

If the team fails you can't fire the team. The manager takes the hit, no matter if it is his fault or not. That's baseball, that's all sports.

That's usually true, though it hasn't been here. TK would have been fired years before he hung it up if it were.

 

It also doesn't really tell us anything about the impact it has on a team. It's really more a result of contracts getting bigger and CBAs more complex. Trades are much harder to make than they used to be in all sports. So when a team starts losing and the front office wants to shake things up, they fire the coach or manager - not because it's the best change they can make, but it's the easiest.

[Montecore]

When I see Gardenhire - I see a guy who presided over a 99 loss debacle only to be followed by a season heading towards a 125 loss hell. Have to imagine that many fans AND many players are seeing the same thing. The guy was always over-rated and he was a dismal leader in innumerable playoff games. Don't think he has the character to resign so, pretty please, fire his ass.

[Riverbrian]

I'm not anti-Gardenhire and I don't understand the extreme disdain for him. I don't blame him for playoff failures. Only a handful of teams have reached the playoffs and the number is less in the AL Central because the Twins have taken the Central Title so many times while he has been employed. I don't blame Gardenhire for playing in the AL Central and refuse to use that against him.

 

There is very little reason to focus on the day by day game management when assessing Ron Gardenhire as a Manager? All Manager's have Hitting Charts, All Managers have stop watches, pitch counts and very similiar gut feelings. Some managers can get more out of their players but it's still the players who have to get more out of themselves. It's a game of inches and momentum. In the end, the manager can only lead the horses to water. This part of the discussion is really kind of silly.

 

What needs to be discussed is this... Gardy's role in picking the horses that he leads to the water!!!

 

Gardy's role with what is going on is in the area of player evaluation!!! Here are the questions that need to be answered. Does Gardenhire have a vote in the process? Did Garza(for example) get traded because Gardy advocated his departure for more offense? Did Gardy personally advocate keeping other pitchers in the organization over Garza? Did Gardy feel the need for more offense and communicate this strongly to the Bill Smith who acted on his behalf? Did Gardy advocate the acquiring of more offense? Was Gardy against the trading of Garza? Did Bill Smith feel the team had enough pitching against Gardy's opinion? (I'm only using Garza for example... The current problems are deeper then Garza).

 

The current situation is upon us because of multiple people and the bottom line is that the Owners are at the top of the food chain. The Owners hire the people who hire the people. If your organization is in tough shape... The Owners are responsible.

 

Gardy was part of the process that delivered some fantastic AL Central play for a nice period of time. He is currently part of the process that is delivering some of the worst Major League Baseball.

 

The organization is in a hole... How did it get there? Gardy I assume was part of the process and still is. How did the process change when Ryan stepped down and Bill Smith took over. Did the evaluation balance get out of whack when Ryan left. Maybe Ryan and Gardy were good balance for each other. Maybe Ryan knew when to listen to Gardy and when to trust his own judgement. Maybe Smith wasn't the type to accept Gardy's opinion's or Maybe Smith didn't trust his judgement and started relying on Gardy's judgement more then Ryan did. A lot of Maybe's and I have no way of knowing. However, the assessment process works, it was doing fine and then it went to hell. Gardy is part of that process I assume... Good and Bad.

 

Something Changed and now the organization needs desperate change. Gardy has to go and I think he should get more then a hallmark card when he does. He deserves our respect for his role in bringing us the many AL Central Titles. If Gardy hasn't been heard for the past decade. He get's no blame at all but then he's to blame for not being forceful enough. I'm pro-Gardenhire but the times they are a changin.

 

Gameday Management is the goofiest argument for being Anti-Gardenhire.

[Shane Wahl]

And it was pretty clear in the case of J.J. Hardy, Riverbrian.

[Riverbrian]

And it was pretty clear in the case of J.J. Hardy, Riverbrian.

This Statement will drive some folks on this site nuts but here goes anyway.

 

I wouldn't have traded Gomez for Hardy in the 1st place. Gomez wasn't ready for the majors! Gomez has extreme talent! He just didn't have the head yet.

 

After the Santana trade, he was forced into the lineup before he was ready. He sprung past Span on the depth chart and I assume it was because someone felt that someone had to show up and be a major league representative for what we got in return.

 

Hardy was always an injury risk. That being said... After the 1st bad trade was made acquiring Hardy... Trading Hardy for nothing to the Orioles was the next bad trade and much worse then the first.

 

The Bill Smith Era was directionally lost and a series of over-reactions. Was this because Gardy had more or less influence over the roster after Ryan left? Or did he have the same? I don't know. I assume that Gardy has some influence.