KirbyDome89

I'm all for making deadline moves, but I don't think any team should hold back to start the season with the intention of maxing the budget at the deadline. A move in July should be in addition to, not a completion of, a contending team.

Agreed, and they'll certainly be more expensive, but doesn't that fly in the face of the premise of the article? Why wait until July 31st and guarantee yourself a massive price tag?

What would be unexpected about being in a position to compete?

Money. It's the sole focal point for some fans, which has become draining. Yes, the Twins (and many other suitors) were outbid for Wheeler. They never could've even dreamed of approaching the contracts handed out to Gerrit Cole, Stephen Strasburg, or Anthony Rendon. While this will inevitably invoke utterances of "Cheap Pohlads" from a certain crowd, those folks need to face facts: The Twins are never going to have the uninhibited spending flexibility of a Philadelphia, New York, Washington, or Los Angeles. The Rendon-Cole argument is a strawman. Nobody had expectations of landing Cole, despite what his addition could do for this team. The bar was lowered to Ruy, Wheeler, and Bumgarner from the onset, and now 2 of them are already off the table. The Twins could've beaten either the Wheeler or Bumgarner deals without pushing beyond reasonable payroll expectations. They chose not to do so. Minny. Look, I know most Minnesotans hate this shorthand but I needed it for the wordplay so please let it slide. As much as I love Minneapolis, I recognize that we're not the most appealing destination for high-profile free agents and their families. Money talks, but it's narrow-minded to believe that's the overriding factor in every decision, especially for the most in-demand players. All four of the aforementioned free agents – Wheeler, Cole, Strasburg, Rendon – went from famed big-market cities to other famed big-market cities. Wheeler, from what I've heard, notified the Twins more or less that he wasn't interested. Show me the FA contract offer this organization tenders, which beats every other team, and the FA that turns it down, and then we can start blaming geography. Narrow-minded is defaulting to the "they didn't want to come here," schtick while this organization continues to underbid. Money isn't an overwhelming encumbrance – ownership's willingness to spend was made clear by the apparent green-lighting of a massive offer to Wheeler, which healthily exceeds the amount Bumgarner got – but the Twins can't endlessly outbid competitors with deep pockets and built-in preference. I'm not sure why fans would yearn for it. They did the same thing with the offer to Darvish. Is money not an encumbrance so long as FAs are willing to accept 20% less than market value, or is the FO entirely unwilling to pull the trigger? Either way, it doesn't bode well for this team moving forward. I believe the Twins are serious about doing everything within their power to strike a sensible deal with these players. Sensible at this point has to be taken to mean "a steal," which runs counter to everything FA is. And this is the developing reality Twins fans may need to come to grips with: An offseason defined more by savvy than splash. Disappointment. FTFY This front office has shown a keen eye for pitching talent, and a special ability to develop arms. Are we trying to speak this into existence?

If you include the guys they selected and forced onto the active roster it looks even less palatable. I'm happy they've just stayed away from the Rule V the last few years.

Yet apparently we're morons for believing the Twins would put a PR spin on their refusal to spend what it takes to land top talent.

What exactly were the two "morons," Mackey quoted wrong about? When have the Twins shown willingness or proficiency in spending top dollar to acquire elite talent? What moves has the new FO executed that signals a change from this organizations aversion to spending? Remain optimistic if you want, I'm still clinging to hope they acquire at least one starter at or above the talent level of Berrios, but pessimism is warranted. The irony of Mackey calling fans morons, while ignoring decades of revenue going unspent and propping up low FA bids as evidence of change is just too sweet.....

Odorizzi's 15' and 16' seasons are on par with what he did this year. If 2017 counts towards his TB tenure than he has to own last season as part of his time with MN as well. Also, he was a completely different pitcher in the 2nd half of this season. It's still a good move by the FO, but I wouldn't say the organization "turned Odorizzi around," and I'd certainly stop short of saying the Twins have a knack for developing pitching at this point.

Thome posted a barely higher OPS and a considerably higher OPS+ than Cruz did if we're comparing single seasons. I'd give the nod to Jim considering he had his monster year when the rest of the league wasn't smashing home runs at a record breaking pace.

As a fan it makes total sense to want the extra year. You're the right, the Twins had the option to take the year, and legally speaking they did nothing wrong. That said, it doesn't mean the organization's decision was necessarily right from a relations standpoint, or that it's best for the long term outlook. If the decision to send Buxton home is chalked up as simply business then fine; it's the other rationalizations that really have no base.

I've never said it wasn't a business move, nor that the Twins were wrong by any legal standard. Buxton didn't "put himself," in that position though, the Twins chose to send him home. Again, look at the 40 players on the roster to end that year and tell me every single one of them was better than Byron Buxton; you can't. If you watched employees that you, and everybody else knew were inferior to yourself be promoted over you, and you found out that the reason for your lack of movement was that the company wanted to avoid paying you a bonus, you wouldn't be pissed? There would be no hard feelings towards your employer? I'm not calling you a liar, but I am pointing out that the anger over his on field performance is coloring the view of his service time manipulation to the point where he apparently isn't even allowed to be upset about having a year of FA taken from him.

I keep seeing the same 3 arguments being beaten to death here: 1) He didn't "deserve," a call up - Please, read through that September roster and then tell me there wasn't room for Buxton. 2) He needed to gain confidence - I'm not sure how refusing to give PT to somebody instills confidence. Also, lets be honest, September rosters are full of guys that'll never have big league careers, i.e. an extension of the competition he was seeing in the minors. 3) He needed to develop in the minors - His minor league season was over. They literally sent him home while the big league club played another 15+ games. Players don't develop by not being on the field. You can be disappointed in Buxton's development to this point and still acknowledge that the decision to send him home that September was 100% motivated by service time. I'm guessing if we took a TD poll, an overwhelming majority would say they expected more from him this far into his Twins career. Calling him "clueless," for answering a question posed by local media, at a charity event he voluntarily flew back to attend in the Twin Cities, just months after the organization essentially stole a year of financial freedom from him, feels like a bit much. IMO the angst over his performance is misplaced when this topic comes up. Anybody on this board would feel the same way if they were on the receiving end of contract manipulation.

Those were considered team friendly deals before either player started this season. It's a even larger W for the Twins in retrospect, especially if their level of play in 19' can be sustained. That type of deal throttles Buxton's earning potential. He's already an elite defender, he's a freak athlete, and we've seen what he can do when healthy. If I'm him on gambling on my performance paying out a higher dividend via arbitration too. His gripe is that his service time was very obviously manipulated. His decision not to accept a team friendly contract offer doesn't change that fact. Despite all the hand wringing over whether or not he deserved to be on the roster, it's actually a pretty easy case to make. Look at the September roster from that season and ask yourself whether every player on it is better than Byron Buxton.

He's putting up similar or better numbers, he's 4 years younger, and he's doing it in the in AL. If we're drafting a team it's an easy call which guy you're taking first.

Cole and Strasburg aren't turning down blank checks. If (when) MN doesn't land either, it'll be because they weren't the highest bidder. Period. Wheeler isn't near the pitcher Berrios is. Acquiring him isn't landing an ace. He's also closer in age to Gibson than Berrios. How long do the Twins have to wait for that "future potential?"

This team needs to start putting some arms around Berrios that aren't stop gaps. If Pineda is the 5th spot in the rotation then a short term QO is fine. If the intention is to bank on a guy who's already a serious health risk to repeat this last season and be a top of the rotation starter then it's a hard pass. High caliber internal arms aren't exactly knocking at the door, there's Graterol and then a group that barely got a taste of AA or hasn't even reached that level yet.

Except there isn't a guarantee they'll be back next year. We assume the good will get better while the bad will be improved upon, but that just isn't likely. How many guys had breakout seasons this year? Are we expecting them all to avoid regression and build on 19'? Does Cruz continue to defy age and stay healthy/productive? Does Buxton stay on the field this year? Does Berrios finish strong? Ect, ect, ect... They need 4 starting pitchers; does this franchise decided to spend $$ and prospects to fill out the rotation despite serious aversion to both avenues? They're going to need bullpen help too. MN can hide or shuffle guys through a 13 man pen in the regular season but we saw what happened to the "elite," bullpen when lesser arms were forced to get outs against a playoff lineup. Outside of addressing internal issues the Twins also have to contend with divisional teams. Detroit and KC will almost certainly be terrible again, but if the Sox decide to be even a .500 team, it makes the path to the postseason already more difficult than this year. Then there's Cleveland. Are we banking on them being without 3/5 of their starting rotation for nearly the entire year again? Do we hope that Lindor and Ramirez miss a month+ each? For as injury ravaged as some moaned the Twins were, the Indians had it worse, and still almost took the division. The Twins had a lot go their way in 19'. IMO it would be irresponsible to set that as the starting point from where they go this offseason. The hard part is done, i.e. they've got the structure to build around, at least position player wise. It's a question of whether they'll commit to putting together a serious contender, and how honest they'll be about areas of deficiency at this point.

I hear you on the lack of good arms in the pen. I've been pushing back against the "elite bullpen," narrative over the last week, so we agree there; Rocco is going to have to throw those guys, especially with a 12 man staff, and it's unfortunate for him. That said there's validity to the argument that picking and choosing when/where to throw them could've made a difference. If Berrios comes out for one more inning, Rogers throws 2, and Romo throws 1, they still have May and Duffey. There's no guarantee MN gets through that sequence unscathed but it's certainly preferable to Littell, Stashak, and Gibson. I do think Rocco deserves some heat for the way the game was managed. They seemed to be holding back, and in a 5 game series that make absolutely no sense.

I think their comfort level with the status quo definitely hurts right now, but I'm not sure how much having the extra game at home factors into it. Damn, I thought I was the resident pessimist in comparison to some here. I'll be at game 3 so hopefully I'm not watching MN get swept out at home. My head says NY in 4, my heart says MN in 5.

Severino is a 2X AS and according to both him and his team he's healthy. That simply is a quality arm. I'm not sure how a guy with 28 career Major League innings can be that underrated but regardless of where you feel he his, it isn't anywhere near Severino; this isn't a push.

Dobnak has made 9 appearances and in 5 of those games he threw 3 or fewer innings. Two weeks ago was the first time he's thrown more than 4 innings in a game. Severino, even with a pitch count of 80, can give NY that kind of distance, so we're really talking about talent, and that easily favors NY.

Jose Berrios 2nd Half: 4.46 ERA, OPS against went from .671 to .755 and his SO/W went from 4.52 to 3.25 James Paxton 2nd Half: 3.63 ERA punctuated by a 1.05 ERA over 5 September starts Odorizzi has better numbers than Tanaka essentially all year, with each having their own rough patches so if you're a believer in him not giving up homers at Yankee Stadium that's your advantage. Severino is a no brainer over Dobnak. If Severino is healthy, and it appears he is, the lack of innings shouldn't matter. It seems silly to knock him for throwing only 12 innings when Dobnak has tossed 28 in his entire career. I'd take Rogers over any of the back end guys mentioned, but May and Duffey aren't on par with any of the 3 big arms at the back of the NY pen. May has turned it on this half and Duffey has been solid all year when given the opportunity and maybe this is their coming out party but IMO that's still advantage NY. As far as the rest of the bullpens go NY: Gearrin, Hale, Cessa, Kahnle, Green, ect... MN: Littell, Stashak, Romo, Graterol, Smeltzer, ect... That feels like a push. I won't feel particularly confident watching some of those guys take the mound for the first time, although NY fans probably feel the same after watching that series at Target Field. If the Twins have an advantage, it's that they have an offense capable of keeping them in every game. They've shown time and agin this season they're capable of whittling away leads or downright exploding to take over games. I'm excited to watch them swing the bats, i'm anxious about how the pitching staff will perform, especially in NY.

I blame this on them pitching him immediately after getting off the plane following the trade....

“Dyson, however, informed the Twins shortly after joining them on July 31 that he has been pitching with some discomfort, dating to a July 15-17 series against Colorado. He said he’s had aches before and ad pitched through them.” If Dyson sought treatment while with SF and it was omitted in his medical records the Twins have a case here. If he told the Giants staff about his soreness and that he was fine pitching through it as he had in the past, and treatment wasn't necessary, then the waters become murky. I suppose you could argue that morally the Giants are shady by not disclosing that Dyson had some discomfort but I'm not sure they're obligated to disclose that if Dyson himself isn't claiming any aliment.

Perez has been worse over a longer stretch? Idk 6 locks plus 2 near locks along with Stashak & Littell means you're taking 2 of 3 from Graterol, Perez, and Thorpe. IMO it's pick your poison at that point.