diehardtwinsfan

don't suppose he could be the Twins representative this year

doing well (even extremely well) in small samples is not dominating. Buxton needs to work on things like his approach and what not. He's better off doing that in AAA where he can have some success and where it isn't quite as difficult to master. Nothing good comes from letting him flail away at pitches he cannot hit. I was fine with this as a cup of coffee, now here we are and Arcia is DFAd and Buxton is still up stinking up the joint. He's not learning anything at the major league level (rather clearly) and if he's up all year this year, we're going to be in the same boat next year. Let' him finish the season in AAA. It's best for him.

Yes, but not very often. I would agree. I'll be happy if Plouffe and Nolasco are gone. I'll be even happier if they can unload Abad or someone else from the pen. That's probably high expectations on its own.

I think the idea that AAA doesn't prepare you for 95+ pitches is an odd one (side note, junk pitches are rarely in the 90s as they are off speed pitches). Sure, you won't see very many major league curve balls in AAA, but you'll see more of them there than you will in AA, A+, and A ball. I don't think anyone disagrees that major league pitching is better, but looking at Buxton and Kepler, I don't think it's an accident that the prospect who spent more time in the high minors is having more success right now in the majors. That's my biggest beef with the Twins handling Buxton. He got added to the 40 man before he was ready, and they've now burned 2 options. He's still rather clearly not ready and next year is his last option (which at this point I suspect they will need). I get sick and tired of hearing how Buxton isn't Hicks or Buxton isn't Arcia, but it is that same type of mismanagement that put the team in the position to have to deal with Hicks and Arcia in the manner that they did. Buxton needs to return to AAA and get those at bats, and he needs to do it sooner than later. In 2018, there will be no option to yo-yo him.

I won't argue the org's double standard with pitchers and hitters, based on the evidence, I think that's deserved. I was simply pointing out that there's some pretty unreasonable expectations around here that are placed on management when it comes to prospects, especially when you consider that teams are pretty happy with a draft class that produces 3 major leaguers. Walker really shouldn't be a data point here (not yet at least). He was a risky proposition to begin with, and ironically, he's the guy that they have quite intentionally took it slow with.

Agreed, if a guy is that mentally fragile, he's probably not going to make the bigs. I'll say what I've said about Arcia in a few places, but I highly doubt his 2015 performance was pouting. He had a hip injury, and those aren't easy to come back from.

Buxton needs to go back down sooner than later. Not sure if I'd call Rosario up quite yet though. Its nice that he's actually started showing a bit more selectivity at the plate. Not quite sure I'd throw him back into the fire after 10 days of doing what he's been asked (and failed) to do for more than a year now.

Back in 2012, our best talent (sans Arcia, Gibson, and Dozier) were pretty much all in A ball. Calling those guys up would have been a horribly bad thing to do. I'd bet the results would be far worse than what you have today. The right thing to do is get those place holders and a bunch of guys who have destroyed the minors and just need a shot and give it to him while you bring the kids up. When guys succeed, they get traded for more lottery tickets. If one of those AAAA guys breaks through, that's a bit different of a decision based on how much service time he has, org need, etc. Of course that means that when said rookie is ready (Arcia for instance who had nothing to prove in the minors), he's playing every day.

The point is that most of the vets couldn't be unloaded, and the ones that were able to be were traded. My only beef with Ryan's rebuild during that timeframe is not going after lottery tickets and stocking his minors with AAAA type guys. He did that a bit with guys like Colabello. The high minors were pretty baren of talent, and the major league level was awful to say the least. At that point, I'm loading up with guys with a former track record coming off of injury. In other words, go get the Feldman and Pelfrey's of the world and not the Kevin Correias. Yeah, some of those guys flame out, which is what you have your AAAA guys for, and the guys that succeed get flipped for talent at the deadline... and that's where the AAAA guys come in. If you're lucky, one of those AAAA guys figures it out and you have more trade bait or a core piece... Rinse and repeat until the kids are ready.

Yeah, here's to hoping he does a Mike Trout on the majors...

yes... then again, it might encourage those young guys to focus more on getting ahead in the count and striking out the batter I'm just saying at one point, given that we won't be doing anything this year, we may as well focus on figuring out what works. In Arcia's case, getting him in the lineup every day should have been a requirement.

I never said any of that wasn't true. What I am saying is that you're being pretty unreasonable if you think his failure to do better in this area is on the org. He was a 3rd round pick for a reason, and these types of players fail all the time all over MLB. That was my point.

I wouldn't put ABWs BA on the org. He was a 3rd rounder for a reason and it was well recognized he'd have these problems (hence his draft spot). The fact that he hasn't been just promoted ought to say something, and I'm sure it's not that no one is saying take more pitches... judging by his results, that's what he's doing (or at least trying to) and not doing well I might add.

Honestly, it's a lost season, I'd have played him in CF just to keep his bat in the lineup and see if he can adjust to major league pitching. Would one or two more losses b/c of it really make things worse than what they are now?

going to the plate looking to take one (such as Aaron Hicks) is a bad idea. Being willing to take one is a different story, something Rosario, Vargas, Arcia, and Santana all need to learn. If the pitcher isn't throwing enough strikes, then take the free pass. Swing freely at those pitches out side of the zone and more often than not you're headed back to the dug out. That's what a good at bat looks like. The outcome is a result of the good process. We get into trouble when we look at the outcome and want to see more of it, but forget that there's a process that is not easy to change.

If memory serves me right, his injury last year was a hip injury, which are notoriously difficult to just bounce back from. I doubt he sucked in AAA b/c he felt he didn't belong... likely more b/c it hurt to swing. That said, my biggest beef is consistent PT. There's no excuse for Molitor to have gotten Arcia as little PT as he did. None. A day off now and then wouldn't have been hard, and it wouldn't have been hard to get some others guys days off to get Oswaldo in the lineup more. There's enough positional flexibility on this team to have accomplished it.

Crowd noise isn't surprising, and I'm not sure you can do much about it. Those minor league stadiums aren't going to see attendance over 5k very often, and as bad as the Twins have been, that's still quite a bit less than what shows up at TF, and at road games it's worse. You can be told about that one till the cows come home, it won't prepare you for hearing the real thing. But back to the point, I am fairly convinced that the Twins have issues in developing talent. Exactly what I'm not sure. Identifying it seems to be something they can do well, and even developing it through the minors seems like it works too... but something happens when a guy is first called up or a failure to adjust if he's had some success. I'd love to know where the Twins sit in those categories in respect to league average. I have to think they are below average there.

Maybe that was the Twins rebuilding strategy all along?

Speaking of Kepler, his OPS is now sitting around .750 after that nice night yesterday. If I were to put money on someone turning the corner, it might be Max.

This times a million. My apologies to Nick, but I don't think it's fair to say that Arcia got a far shot. Yeah, he didn't earn it so to speak, but getting consistent PT is something he never got. My main reason for wanting to get rid of Gardy centered around this issue. Now 1 1/2 years of Molitor, we are seeing the exact same thing. It is maddeningly frustrating.

yeah, there's a shot there, but I'm not holding my breath. Those same teams could have had Milone for free a month ago. If they wouldn't DFA/60 day DL someone then to make room on their 25 man for a guy they could have had for no prospect, I don't see them doing that now. If they would trade for him, it won't be much. Not even certain you'd see a lottery ticket, most likely org filler or a utility guy ceiling.

I tend to think that peace is the better solution as well.

well, he's going to be spending a lot of time with his family this year at least. Unfortunately for Glen (and I like him), I think he's done. He will try and come back at some point next year. He's under contract and he will honor it, that's how he is... But that prognosis doesn't look good. Best of luck to him. Oh, and question for the OP. Is there a difference in success level with starters vs. relievers? Kind of curious there.

Interestingly enough, we have opposite conclusions for the same reasons. I wanted HS guys b/c we need talent in the low minors and because I suspect that the org is going to be overhauled pretty significantly this offseason. I'd rather have higher ceiling HS guys in place for a new org that will be better focused on developing them. The Twins did precisely what you're being critical about. They took a bunch of higher ceiling players. If they had taken the college guys, then they would been taking lower ceiling players. I can see your point on non-premium positions, but as others noted, there really weren't good options there (with the exception of pitching). Getting back to the org issue, I'm not even sure that their problem is with the development staff in the minors (most of it at least). I think they could use some fresh coaching blood in the higher minors, but I really think their problem is rushing hitters through the high minors, not bringing pitchers up through them fast enough, and never really giving the kid a shot once he hits the majors, regardless of position. I can see that if you're in contention, but not when you're one of the worst teams in the league. There certainly may be a few coaching changes in the minors that could help the development out, but they seem to have no problems with talent performing in the high minors, but once they hit the majors... well that's a problem, and it's one with too many data points at this point to ignore. Either way, I don't think there will be a lot of coaching hold overs come 2017. Pohlad will clean house at the top this offseason, and plenty of dominoes will fall after that. Get the ceilings and let whomever handles this next work with them. They did that.

I've had a bit more time to digest this today. I'm still pretty upset about the Arcia DFA. It was the wrong decision. I don't know if he'll be the next Ortiz, or if he'll be the next Nelson Cruz, Joe Benson, or Chris Parmalee, but in general, there's something to be said about not giving up on young kids, especially ones that show the ability to be much better than their much older peers or those who have shown they can hold their own for an extended time at a young age. Arcia may have had issues with his attitude. He may have been more interested in the pay check then honing his craft. He may have just been immature. I don't know. I still don't like it. Bottom line, a team like the Twins has to give those guys a chance to grow up and improve. Not everyone matures at the same rate, and at 25, there's plenty of immaturity to go around. I suspect most of us at TD, if we were honest would admit that we had (or have) some maturity issues at that age. My bigger problem is that lack of a plan thing that a few people have mentioned. I'm really not sure what they are trying to accomplish in the FO right now. This team is bad, one of the two worst in the league and it's not really close. We do have a lot of talent in the high minors, and while I wouldn't be putting all of them in MLB at the moment, I certainly wouldn't be giving away ones that might be useful pieces. I get that Arcia would have likely gotten the squeeze at some point, but we don't know if Kepler or Buxton will develop, and like it or not, Arcia has more success in the majors than either of them at this point. I don't mind keeping Grossman around, as he might be that diamond in the rough (even if the odds are low), and I don't even mind Santana. But Maestro? How it is that Arcia didn't get consistent PT over the last month with all the injuries is mind boggling. Heck, Park has been struggling, and spending time in AAA might do him good, even though he does look like he could be an impact major leaguer. There were ways to solve this problem that didn't involve getting rid of potentially good pieces. Simply put, right now this team needs to be removing anyone that isn't long term piece who is in the way of someone that could be. I don't have a problem with guys like Maestro when guys like Buxton aren't ready, but I do have a problem with them when you're keeping them over guys like Arcia who has nothing to prove in the minors and is out of options. Who cares if the OF defense is bad this year? Play Arcia in center for all I care, but play him. I don't care if they trade the ML blocking pieces for scraps or DFA them, but the one thing we all wanted to see Arcia get this year was some consistent PT, and it is the one thing he hasn't gotten. They should be nuking non-core pieces where there's young talent that needs to play and playing for #1 overall right now, not kicking 25 year old potential power bats aside for a 5th OF that is a decent CF if Buxton likely falters again. If Molitor cannot accept that, he should be gone. If Ryan cannot step in and tell him as much, he should be gone.