DocBauer

This. A lot of great quotes to copy. But I think this one sums it up most succinctly. I just don't get it! I'm a Gardy fan and supporter, but I just don't get the Florimon support at this point. And I came in to this season as a Florimon supporter, so consider that before I continue. I loved watching him in the field. And I truly believed, speculated, hoped we'd see some natural progression from him after last seasons experience. He's a good enough athlete, with a mostly solid first half of 2013, that I thought we might see a .240-ish hitter this year, with a following uptick in OB, that would result in a few more extra base hits and more SB opportunities. But it alas, he has not only regressed, he is in the midst of one of the worst seasons I have EVER seen in all of my years. I get he helped us last year. I get he's probably a good kid and working hard. And I get Gardy's and the Twin's sense of loyalty. And I completely get it and understand it. But there is a point where absurd meets ridiculous at a crossroads, and this is it. In fact, I think the exit was a mile or two back. Florimon barely made contact at Rochester, and made huge error numbers while there. I understand there were dual injuries suddenly, but logic and the same Twins loyalty, along with basic smarts, clearly indicated a move to bring Romero up instead. You'd have a natural 3B actually playing 3B, even if his defense is somewhat suspect. But he offers infinitely more offense than Florimon, and keeps Escobat at SS where he's been excelling. Instead, we disrupt two positions in the infield instead of one. And then comes the third injury, this time to Santana. The same all applies to the Romero promotion. But if you're going to bring up Polanco, there is less pressure to have to play with him with Escobar staying at short. But even then, if you do have Florimon up, why not let Polanco actually play for a few games? What's he going to do, hit worse than Florimon? I'd much rather have the kid get a couple games under his belt for a ML taste while he's here. And could he really play so poorly in the field that a hit or two, even a couple walks or productive outs still couldn't be better than having Florimon in the lineup? Let's be honest. It's not mean spirited to state that probably every other team in baseball would have already DFA'ed Florimon at this point. The moves made and not made the past couple of weeks have me more than frustrated, downright dumbfounded and angry.

<pounds head against the wall repeatedly and moans> "Why? Why in the name of Babe Ruth, why?" This is beats me to a thread I wanted to start about the timing of May's eventual promotion. Even had a title! Speculation as to another roster shuffle the next week or so, or just stay in Minnesota after the futures game. <crumples imaginary piece of paper and tosses it in imaginary trash head. Sighs...and rubs aching head> Yes, at least is SOUNDS like it SHOULD be a minor injury and setback only. Perhaps the after the Futures Game scenario still applies, but I'm guessing not. Even if ready by then, surely he'd only pitch an inning or two before going back to Rochester and stretching out a bit more after the layoff. First of August maybe? Seriously, between the parent club and injuries to top and solid prospects throughout the chain, where does it end? We're the nice, friendly organization who thinks they can. What did we do to deserve this? There are two old expressions that apply here: "It's always darkest right before the dawn," and, "It's always darkest right before it turns totally $&@?*#% black". Sooooo hoping for the former to be true.

Hey, great points. But isn't projecting the future, 2015 in this case, all projection at this point anyway? We can look at talent, projection, depth all we want. But until the season ends, MLB and Milb, and FA occurs and next ST, it's all just projection and theory. Right? Imploring even a bit of logic along with projectables, current performance, stuff, and performance recently before this season, we can make a few strong educated guesses. First, can we at least agree that a MLB pitcher who is 30, or early 30's is not an over the hill albatross? If you disagree, then Perk, Duensing, Swarzak, Fien and Nolasco should be immediately be shown to the nearest turn style, handed a walker, and thanked for their efforts. Now, Nolasco hasn't lived up to expectation yet, but do we really jettison a veteran pitcher with a solid history after half a season? Do we dump an all star reliever because his counter clicked past 29? Fien has been anywhere from good to very good, if not better at times, since he came on board. But we're scared suddenly he'll need a Walker to take the mound next year? Some fans just have a dislike for Duensing that I just don't get. He's not perfect, but he's been a very solid LH reliever when allowed to concentrate on a role instead of being bounced around. I understand your numbers. I really do. And baseball is a game of numbers. But those numbers can also be fluid from week to week, month to month, and especially in the case of relievers, year to year. Correia will be gone. Barring another fountain of youth for the second half of the season, so should be Burton and Guerrier. This is where logic, diminishing talent meet. Along with talented prospects intrude. Pino and Deduno are what they are. And what they are are fill in players who's time has come. With the talent coming up, you think the Twins don't recognize this. Once again, this is a transition year. Or is it better, and more acurate to call it a bridge year? Logic and projection would show a rotation next year of Hughes, Nolasco, Gibson, possibly May, and someone else. Someone else could be Meyer, Darnell, Pelfrey or Johnson. (Possibly Berrios at some point) Logic also dictates a pen of Perkins, Fien, a FA, Duensing, Thielbar, and 2 others that may include Pressly, Tonkin, Atcher, Swarzak, Oliveres and a few others. Best logical guess would be 5-6 pitchers on the staff that were 30 plus. And was pointed out, there is a difference from an effective 30 y.o. Compared to an end of the road mid to late 30 y.o. Hey, I want every top Twins prospect to hit the ML's tomorrow and just rock it! But if we have 40-50% of our total pitching staff at age 30 and effective, this is a bad thing? How? Because one or two of them are holding a spot solidly until a younger player is ready?

I guess I'm either old fashioned or too conservative. I always seem to error on the side of caution when it comes to young prospects. Wow! I should be in the Twins FO! LOL But seriously, I am a huge believer in Berrios. In any sport, there are physical parameters that are preferred based on history that help project what should be expected. Projectables are a very real thing, and often accurate. But in the history of sports, there are amazing talents who wash out that posses those measurables, whether it be a QB, a center in basketball, or a 6' 3" pitcher in baseball. Talent and potential sometimes bely measurables. Such is the case of Berrios. This kid is a sculpted athlete with a warrior attitude, big stuff, and a tremendous work ethic. In my time I've seen several young kids rise rapidly to the ML level. Names like Gooden and Fernandez come to mind. I don't know what the "it" factor is that allows teenagers/early 20's prospects to occassionaly rise so quickly. If I did, I'd be a top scout for someone. Considering how young Berrios is, I have no problem letting him continue to taste vast success at high A while he develops as a pitcher, athlete and young man. But I also believe he is a special talent, and is so dominate, and such a competitor, that a move to AA just has to take place this season. It could be tomorrow, or a few weeks, giving him a month to a month and a half at the AA level. I believe this would set him up for AAA next season, or a few weeks to a month in. I don't believe in rushing a top prospect, but I do believe in testing and pushing them.

Has anyone's value done a downturn faster than Florimon in recent history? Even fans of his defense and speed, hopeful of a decent and maybe slightly improved player on 2014 have soured on him. Id love to just be able to keep him at Rochester for the rest of the year, as a just in case option, if nothing else. But I'm now of the opinion he might be a DFA option if necessary to improve the roster. This SHOULD be a moot point as Plouffe is reportedly back in a couple days. Not sure why Nunez would need any rehab time unless the Twins are just playing the roster shuffle game. But Plouffe should be back, Escobar goes back to SS, and no other big move has to take place. But if Plouffe has any delay, Romero needs to be up, whatever 40 man move needs to take place.

Actually kind of tired of this debate. What you do, what you bring, is what's important. Still think the Twins...for now...are playing the "who can do the best for NOW" game. Haven't even reached the second half of the season yet. I believe we're buying time, trying to win, not a bad thing, getting ready for future promotions. And those are coming. Already seen some in the minors, and there will be more. As an organization, they really aren't standing pat. Same time next year, Correia will be gone. Burton and the G-Man the same. That will leave Nolasco, Perk, Fien and Duensing all in their early 30's.

Not a negative to players in the lower minors, but so encouraging to see how many of these names are at AAA. And a couple just below at AA.

I did not until I checked. But it's only one game. But remember who was out lead off hitter before the Santana emergence? Fingers are cramping from being crossed. (about ready to sacrifice a bucket of KFC's best)

Completely out of left field! But kind of fun. I am also hoping he gets at least a few innings and AB's while up. I'm a big believer in his future, and this does bode well for a September call up. As I understand the rules, once a call up happens, he can go down and big up multiple times. The option is for the year, yes? I do think it's rather strange that some blast the Twins for roster mismanagement, and want the Twins to promote youngsters, but then hammer the Twins for brining up Polanco, even briefly. In regard to roster mismanagement in certain areas, I've softened my stance somewhat. Not offering excuses, but in regard to some issues in the infield, I think the FO simply played a gambling hand and lost. I now believe they were banking on Florimon and Bartlett, as example, for a half season to a full one. Trying to just buy some time. Obviously their bluff got called. Which is the reason they acquired the useful Nunez. But a moment of perspective please. They did trade for Nunez, they did elevate Escobar, and they did promote Santana in place of just sticking with Florimon or promoting Bernier like everyone thought. And much like our OF situation earlier, who saw 3 infielders all getting injured at the same time? These kind of things are just impossible to predict or prepare for. Unlike the OF situation, we might be looking at much shorter term situations. Anything longer, if the baseball gods continue to curse us, as I mentioned in a companion thread on Santana, then a move simply must be made to get Romero up here. Also mentioned in this thread, I think May's time has just about come. For various reasons, I don't know that it will happen in the next few days, however. With some impending roster shuffling of Plouffe, possibly Nunez, I wonder if Deduno might not get another start while the dust settles. Just wondering if. Would be kind of a shame for May to miss the Futures Game now that he's been added, but I don't think will stop the Twins from making a move that needs to be made. If he's really ready to be at least solid...well...suddenly a lot of things start to look that much more interesting/hopeful.

Obviously, we all hope it's a minor bruise, strain, etc., and he really is just day to day for a few days. Worse case scenario, I hope, is a 2 week stint to rest. Hard to type and cross fingers at the same time but I'm trying. If out 2 weeks, God forbid any longer, Dozier moves back to lead off. That in itself isn't a terrible thing. But what to do at #2? I believe the answer is a mish-mash of Escobar at SS, and Fuld in certain matchups against some RH's. Short term at least, workable. Especially if Plouffe is indeed back soon. Now, if Plouffe isn't ready for some reason, and it doesn't sound like it will be a problem, then the Twins have to make a 40 man move somewhere/somehow, and promote Romero for a shot at 3B. Despite the disappointing 3 game series against the Angels, now is not the time to throw your hands up. The season is going pretty well, there is excitement and fun, at least a possibility of more/better, and the team is building toward a better future. Again, it's not the time to just give up or give in and settle. And that's what you did if you put Escobar at 3B and Florimon at SS for anything more than a couple days. Escobar has proven himself at SS, and should maintain his spot there, and as mentioned, he could provide a decent option at 2 for now. Romero deserves his shot in this scenario. He's been a good organization guy, not enough in of itself to deserve a promotion, but he is an actual 3B. And while his defense may prove to be average at best, once again, he is a true 3B. And his bat would surely provide much more offense than anything Florimon could provide. This aids the overall lineup. And if Nunez would also be out, I suppose Florimon could provide a little SS backup, and maybe allow Escobar to slide to third for a late game option. Of course, this whole scenario changes if Plouffe is back soon and Nunez the same or close. And if the baseball gods smile on us, which they haven't done much lately, it will all be moot as Santana also will only have a very short term injury issue.

Interesting stat for sure. But a little perspective. Lets assume some easy speculation that Correia, Burton and Guerrier are gone next season. Let's also assume the Twins sign a solid veteran FA to replace Burton, as I have speculated. But let's just say he's 30 or 31. So we've lowered our "over 30" crowd by 2. So now we have 8 players at 30 or older. Do we dump Perkins because he's over 30? Do we dump Fien or Duensing because they are over 30? Or Nolasco? (OK, he's been a little disappointing so far this season, but he's still relatively young for a MLB SP) Deduno and Pino may also be gone, and probably will. Perkins, Fien, Duensing, Nolasco, and maybe a vet FA. That could easily be only 5 pitchers over 30. Not only does that out us in line with the rest of the league, but there is no rule that says a pitcher is done at 30.

Until someone announces he has an injury, even a mild one, I'm not concerned. His past couple of seasons have been interrupted from a normal routine. The shoulder strain last season robbed him of innings. Then came the AFL, ST, and the first half of this season. Combine a staggered schedule with simply working on his mechanics and a third pitch, and I think we just have a case of a tired arm. And if not on a pitch and innings limit, a couple of his last few rough starts might have resulted in another couple strong innings following the rough ones. I think the best thing to happen now would be to miss a start, maybe two, pitch his bullpens, maybe a couple innings of relief to stay in "game mode" and then put him back in to his normal slot. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the theory of brining a young arm to the major league level just because he's talented and on a recent run of success despite less than a full season last season at one level, and less than a half season at a level up this year. What is accomplished? Maybe a couple decent outings in the pen and then what? He's not getting the time to work on that third pitch. And if he runs in to the dead arm period or struggles, you send him back down again because he wasn't truly ready. Id rather give him the starts and innings, with the recommended break, then get back to a normal routine. THEN, if you are worried about an innings limit still, you can STILL bring him up near the end of the season to become introduced to the ML level out of the pen to gain experience.

I heard somewhere the rest of the Florida State League wanted to switch to metal bats vs Berrios because their wooden ones "split" when he took the mound. Ararararar. (hanging head in shame)

I'm with you Jokin. With all the recent draftees and overall depth in talent, I also have overlooked this kid. Not much of a track record after a short time in CR last season and a half season in Ft Myers, but the numbers look great.

Man, I won't cuss, but can I just say this sucks? For the Kernals, it's been a little like the old Hee-Haw song: " If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all." Thought Rochester was poised for an excellent season. Same with Ft Myers. Wondered about New Britain, mainly the SP, and that was before the Buxton injury but they've done great. Thought CR might have some offensive questions but the pitching would carry them. This is definitely a big blow. Let's all hope this is a minor setback for the young man. He's been a great story. Surely they've hit their limit of bad luck by now! Thankfully there is a second half to the season.

I don't know that I buy in to the arguement that the Twins didn't do enough to contend this season. And I say this for 2 reasons: 1) The team is, in fact, arguably, in contention for the central and possibly a wild card. Not saying they are a serious contender, but we have gone from three seasons of disappointing and downright awful to a fun team hovering around .500 and a chance for better with just a little more consistency, and, perhaps a softer schedule the second half if you believe prognosticators. 2) While they may have fallen flat on their faces in a couple well hashed and re-hashed areas, they did make some serious moves. And other than simply breaking the bank to stock FA's up and down the roster, or trade off a multitude of quality and top prospects, what more could they have accomplished after three such awful seasons? Remember, we are in transition, we are rebuilding, and we are sooo much better this season. And despite the injury bummers to Sano and Buxton, the 50 game suspension or Rosario, and the lesser bummer of Meyer's recent struggles, we have a large group of youngsters still standing up to be noticed. And a couple of them are already on the roster. Again, I feel arguements about the pen are very similar to feelings about the rotation. That being we all want the kids to come up and do will and pave the way for the future. But at the same time, cutting a veteran loose who's performing at least adequately is difficult. For what it's worth, I believe Burton will be gone after this season sans a big second half. I believe Guerrier is also on borrowed time. Next season will see Perkins as closer, Duensing and Thielbar as the LH's. The Twins will spend Burton's money slot for another, younger, vet to team with Fien from the right side. That locks up 5 of what will once again be a 7 man pen. Now, Darnell (if not in the rotation), Johnson and possibly Ibarra and Thompson will provide some competition for a LH spot, but more than likely, they make the club only if the Twins decide to keep a 3rd LH in the pen. (Not counting Perkins because he's not a "LH" he's a closer regardless) The last two spots are open competition between Tonkin, Achter, Swarzak, and possibly each of Pino and Deduno. Further, Hamburger and Oliveras may be ready to challenge. Not sure yet about Johnson at New Britain, but he is having a darn good year. I think I'd feel good going in to ST next year with that collection. And a couple of the younger candidates should be up at some point this season to audition, even if it's September.

Berrios needs to move up. It will happen soon. He might struggle a game or two to a higher league, settling to a new club, etc. But I'd be surprised if he didn't prove himself early and often. Im not concerned with Meyer long term. Not at this point. His 2013 was interrupted. Then he showed some real stuff in the AFL. He had some great results at AAA until recently. With some starts and stops to his seasons, along with normal growing pains, I feel the best thing that the Twins could do now is just let him skip a turn or two in the rotations. Throw his bullpens, maybe toss a couple innings from the pen, rest a little as a result, get back to basics, and then slide back in the rotation again.

Seth, in response, I think most any young pitcher might take a game or so to adjust to the next level, AA or otherwise. But personally, Berrios, in my opinion, has an almost warrior type attitude and work ethic. I wouldn't be surprised to see a rise in numbers, of course, but an almost equal level of dominance. Call me giddy to see!

I think a move might depend on Pino's next start. If Plouffe and/or Nunez are ready after that takes place: Florimon goes down. That's one. Now the brass gets to decide between Pino, Deduno, and possibly Swarzak. I just don't buy Thielbar unless the FO is too busy sitting on thumbs. He's a solid and occasionally excellent young LHRP. And you're going to send him down because you can't decide on the best 7th reliever on your team?

Stringer, not for the first time, you and I are of similar mind. You pretty much hit every point I made. Intrigued by Nunez as a useful player off the bench, but not a starter. Both like Escobar and think he can flat out just do the job. Also, probably not an all star. But some really good ball players who can play defense and contribute quality offense aren't all stars. However, we MIGHT differ a bit on Santana. I read all the scouting reports on his talent and potential, if he could harness patience. At the plate and in the field. And I read the great reports from Gardy, and I got excited. Then I watched him ST and kind had a "meh" attitude. Dazzle said it best in one broadcast when he commented there were no "wow" moments during ST in regard to Santana. Flash forward to his promotion, and I confess to being shocked. Not stunned, shocked. I was certain the veteran Bernier, who scrapped his way to the end of the season with the Twins in 2013, had some experience, and was off to a great start in 2014, was the obvious choice. Once I got over my shock, I realized Santana was only brought up because he was on the 40 man, would be gone shortly, wouldn't play except in emergency or as a pinch runner. The coaches would look at him, coach, and then send him right down. In a season that has had more than a handful of surprises, I'd say Santana might be the biggest of all. Not only was he promoted, but the Twins have played him. Not only that, but they've put him in tough, almost impossible, situations, and have actually counted on him. Ever the optimist, I was still left scratching my head with a WTH look on my face. I keep waiting for the curtain to fall. And then once again, he has a 5-7 pitch AB that leads to a walk or hit, or he takes 3B on an OF that no-one expected. I like Escobar, I really do. And I love everything he's done with his opportunity. But every now and then, there is a talented kid who doesn't seem ready who gets a shot. And whether it's coaching, karma, or a lightning strike, the bulb just comes on, and he's ready. I'm starting to think that might be the case here with Santana. I hope it is because I'm really enjoying the ride!

FWIW, I believe Burton and the G-Man are both gone from the bullpen next season. The Twins will do as they did a couple seasons ago when they signed Burton and Fien. They'll sign at least 1, possibly 2 more veteran guys to take a hard look at. Over the past 20 years or so, going all the way back to TK and Such, they've done a great job of finding quality relief candidates. And they will open competition of that 1 or 2 along with Achter and Tonkin, and who knows, maybe Burdi and Hamburger, to help flesh out the pen.

I confess I'm torn in this arguement. Really, it's very similar to arguements made about the rotation. Everyone is eager for the kids to come up, prove themselves, and carry us forward. Correia seemed like toast, and suddenly, he's actually pitching solid to good. And after three just lousy seasons, this team has a shot to improve, has improved, and may continue to improve. And building a solid and winning team also creates a better environment for the youngsters when they arrive...in my humble opinion. To paraphrase the great Nuke LaLoosh: "Man I love winning. It's like, better than losing, you know?" Loved Burton in 2012. Really liked him 2013 and didn't understand all the hate when his year was actually really solid except for one bad stretch. 2014? I'm not as certain. I know he's been much better lately. He's not really that old, and there is something to be said for experience. But I do understand Paul's frustration as I have also seen Burton just absolutely lay some eggs this season. And while I love what Guerrier has meant to the club in the past, and his numbers don't stink thus far, I also don't see anything that speaks of dominance. Like the rotation, where I WANT May and Meyer up, but don't want to blow up a solid season simply for the sake or promoting youngsters, I feel the same way in regard to the pen where I WANT Achter and Tonkin to come up, be ready, and help the pen stabilize and dominate. But I have to temper want, expectation and hope against what is working now. Its tough to see your team so close, and tantalized by what could be, and SOON. And I sometimes wonder if we aren't a little impatient when we should be a little more tempered. After all, this season, so far, is fun, exciting and tempting. Especially compared to the last 3. We aren't even to the all star break yet, and many have been calling for cuts and promotions from the Twins on down through the minors. Personally, I say to give it a couple more weeks.

Favorite all time Twins utility infielder? Man that's hard! And I confess, I forgot about Tolbert. "Is that you Tolbert? At least you could have said you were the Yankees." (Slight edit) Sorry, MAJOR LEAGUE flashback there. This is a tough call. I loved Newman. He played good defense, ran well, stole some bases and always hustled. And while just couldn't accept him for whatever reason, maybe because Gardenhire loved him too much and expected too much, I was always a Nicky P lover. *see Newman* But I think my favorite was Denny Hocking. At different times, he played all 7 non C positions. Like the others, he hustled, stole a few bases, and was the first player, that I can remember, to have twins, long before Joe Mauer made it cool. So I guess I gotta go with Denny.

Escobar was unfairly tagged with the monicker "utility player" because he was brought up too quickly by the Sox, and sat on the bench and was used as a fill in. When the Twins acquired him, I believe, they saw potential as a SS, but he hadn't show much with the bat to that point, and last year we had Florimon. This season, obviously, preparation, talent and opportunity have manifested itself in to an everyday, quality ball player. He has shown the ability to hit, produce some pop and the speed to make it count, and I don't think it's a fluke. Now, a .290 hitter? I'm doubting it. Just as I doubt Santana is truly a .320 hitter. I mean, how many are there in baseball? But even with regression, I think both these guys can hit. I believe Santa, with better speed, is probably a candidate for the better career hitting numbers overall. What impresses me most about each of them, frankly, is the approach each has at the plate. Neither looks intimidated or overmatched. When they make outs, even strike out, they don't look silly or seem as though they don't belong. Santana in particular impresses me considering his youth, his lack of AAA experience, and a reputation of being impatient. And yet, he's actually walking a bit. And maybe it's just when I watch/listen but he seems to always take a lot of pitches, and does a nice job fouling off offerings, making the pitcher work. And when both these guys get their extra base hits, they don't seem to be the bloop or badly played variety, but rather solid line drives to a gap or down the line. And when it comes to utility types, don't forget about Nunez. Minors and majors he's shown the ability to hit, posses a little power and some speed. He might not posses the best glove of the three, but he's at least capable. Now, now maybe next season, maybe this season, everything comes crashing down. But I doubt it. Not with talent possessed, and what we've seen so far. How awesome to have Dozier at 2B, two potential quality SS's who can hit and contribute, and a true solid utility guy in Nunez?! Just a couple seasons ago we were borderline desperate for anyone to fill in our middle infield. And this doesn't include Polanco, possibly Rosario, and Gordon farther down the line. Going forward, I really like Escobar, and have enjoyed him finally getting his shot. Assuming CF is at least temporarily settled next season, I guess he and Santana fight it out for the starting SS job. I'm not sure we lose there. Ultimately, Santana is probably the more dynamic athlete with the greater potential. But whichever plays the best overall will be the starter, and the other will assume a "utility" role. And that's not a bad thing. As stated, from Newman to Reboulet and Hocking to Pinto, the Twins have enjoyed valuable contributions over the past years from players in that role. And over such a long season, and 6 games a week, this is a very important part of your ball club. I know we've all been sick of an OF at times this season that has consisted of middle infielders filling 2 or even all 3 spots at times. And I pray better health and roster building precludes this from happening again. However, at times, all of these guys been out there. All three of these guys have some athletic ability and baseball acumen. And to create maximum roster flexibility and efficiency, whoever doesn't start, I'd like to see drill more on the OF in order to provide OF play as an option on their "utility" resume.

Only one comment needs apply. WTHell?