TheLeviathan

KOC was pretty clear he wants him back too. I really hope that's not for more than 5M. Jones was good for us, but he looked old/hurt too often down the stretch.

Martin playing CF with a fly ball pitching staff is absolutely a major problem for this team. That day in/day out defensive issue would cost this team significantly depending upon how long it's required. If we can't agree to that, then it circles back to the fact that posters simply aren't putting enough value on the role of defense at a critical position. To put it simply - Castro and Martin's 60 starts in CF were absolutely a contributing reason why we missed the playoffs. Whoever the RH hitting OF is, is going to get played. That's what the current FO believes in, without Bader those at-bats were going to be Martin. Now, if they are Martin, it's because we're several levels down the depth chart. As it should be.

That was me on Kamara, so trust me on Skattebo too. :) (Also, check out harvey. Dude is a gasher like Gibbs) If we didn't have 20 open roster spots I could see pushing more at guard, but I don't think our resources will allow for that. I want one of the stud DTs and 1-2 RBs in this draft, but with our entire secondary in disarray I just dont think we can do more than splash for one guard. That or we are starting 2-3 Shaq Griffin level players at DB to pay for that extra guard.

So, we don't want 350 pound, Eagles SB champion Mechi Becton because he sucks? We aren't signing three IOL in FA. It's simply not happening. So anyone sitting here as a Vikings fan thinking "three IOL or bust" this offseason, prepare for disappointment. This team has almost an entire secondary, DL, and running back room to replace. They won't be using half their available payroll on the line. It's not possible. It's not wise even if it was. Also, these two thoughts are not totally in alignment. A slasher, high flyer is a good way to blow those 3rd and 2s also. The Vikings need to change their rushing culture. The Chandler types aren't what wins in this offense. You need someone you can rely on to move the ball forward and force teams to respect your play action. That set you up for 3rd and 4. 2nd and 3. I get you don't like Skattebo, but you're underselling his athleticism. He isn't Bettis. He's a better pass catching version of David Montgomery. Gibbs gets all the attention, but I guarantee you that Montgomery is a critical cog in making it all work.

Cool, show me the last small market dynasty in baseball. Show me the last team in baseball that had a 5-10 year competition window that wasn't New York, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Boston, Philadelphia, or Houston. We're at a point that in order for you to continue your argument you have to ignore my points. You ignored how misguided your Braves example was and you're ignoring the difference between the sports. You know why the Chiefs, Lightning, and Warriors were able to keep competing? Because, at the end of the day, when the players they drafted and developed were ready for larger contracts.....they were on even footing with all of their peers to retain them. The New York Giants don't have triple the payroll of the Chiefs. The Los Angeles Kings don't have quadruple (I'm underselling it by a ton) the budget of the Lightning. The Warriors aren't worried about the Knicks tripling the terms of their extension. They all play by the same rules. Your suggestions, which are fine, are prayers for cancer. Sure, they may make you feel good. Cancer DGAF.

I disagree that the OL sucked last year and I upgraded RG, so I'm happy with it. I think people are too stuck on dumping way too much cap space into guard because Sam Darnold held the ball for 87 seconds and made everyone look bad. I want one run blocking upgrade and I'm good. There seems to be wide disagreement about how far the DLs are going to drop in this one. The combine might sort it out. Other than Graham, guys like Harmon, Grant, Nolen, Stewart, and Tyleik Williams have a wide range of outcomes so far. You could definitely be right that he's gone, but there should be someone as low as 30 from that group.

I'm torn. I don't like the archetypes we draft for offense, though I like that we target offense early. I don't like that our young players always seem to be lesser defenders than I expect them to be given their athleticism and pedigree. On the flip side - the pitching pipeline does seem to be up and running. But all teams have to patch holes in their roster that the farm system fails to produce. I'm just fully on board with this patch. That's where I think some of the disconnect is, even if we largely agree.

To combine your two posts, I share your frustrations. I just can't level them at Bader because I think it would be FO malfeasance not to add someone for that role. France - every at-bat he takes from Wallner, Larnach, Miranda, or the guy selling beers in LF will piss me off.

I can appreciate your motivation, I think bandaiding a gaping wound the last 30 years is precisely the reason we are where we are. I'm all done with band-aids personally. The NFL has seen their most recent dynasty come out of the Kansas City market. The NHL's most recent dynasty was in Tampa Bay. And the NBA's was in Oakland. Think about how preposterous the very notion of any of those three markets doing the same in MLB. That's the issue, right there.

Let's go again now that PFN released a seven round mock and using Spotrac's manage roster. Smith Retires Restructure O'Neill - save 12M 3 year extension with Josh Oliver - save 3M 3 year extension with Josh Metellus - save 2.5M Cut Ed Ingram (save 3M) Resign Theo Jackson 2.5M Resign Byron Murphy Jr. 4 year 17M, initial cap hit of 12M Resign Cam Bynum 4 years 15M, initial cap hit of 10M Sign Cam Akers - 1 year 1.5M Sign Brandon Powell - 1 year 1.5M Resign Mundt 1 year 1.5M Resign Dan Feeney 1.5M Resign Jalen Redmond 2 years 6M Available Salary Cap for FA: 49M Sign CB DJ Reed - cap hit 12M Sign QB Taylor Heinicke - cap hit 2M Sign DT Javon Kinlaw - 3M Sign DL Emmanuel Ogbah - 2M Sign OG Mekhi Becton - cap hit 6M Sign OG/OT Cody Ford - 2M Sign Erick Kendricks - 2M Draft: (Starting picks 24, 97, 140, 161) Trade 24 for 30, 108, and 131 Pick 30 DT Kenneth Grant Trade 97 and 108 for 86 and 130 Pick 86: RB Cam Skattebo Pick 130: S Jaylen Reed Pick 131: CB Jabbar Muhammed Pick 140: DT Jordan Phillips Pick 161: RB RJ Harvey QB - McCarthy, Heinecke, Rypien RB - Skattebo, Harvey, Akers, Ham WR - JJ, Addison, Powell, Nailor, Trishton Jackson TE - Hockenson, Oliver, Mundt OT - Darrisaw, O'Neill, Ford, Rouse OG - Becton, Brandel, Feeney C - Bradbury, Jurgens DL - Grant, Ogbah, Kinlaw, Harrison Phillips, Jordan Phillips, Redmond, LDR OLB - Greenard, Van Ginkel, Turner, Murphy MLB - Cashman, Pace, Asamoah, Kendricks CB - Murphy, DJ Reed, Blackmon, Muhammed, McGlothern S - Metellus, Bynum, Jackson, Ward, Jaylen Reed Specialists - Reichard, DePaula, Some Punt Guy

The utilization is a function of organizational philosophy. His spot will get that usage, be it him or Austin Martin. So the complaint is misplaced IMO. To me it's simple: Buxton is the starting CF. As of two weeks ago plan B was Martin. If (when) Buck gets hurt that plan is the kind that gets your entire season sunk. It's the kind of contigency that doesn't require hindsight in August to see needed to be addressed. Does it suck we always fish in these flawed waters to plug those holes? Absolutely.....but it would've been roster malfeasance to walk in to the season without a better Plan B. And yes, Bader quite clearly represents a better Plan B.

Look, I can't help how they pinch hit. That's an issue whether it's Bader or Kiersey or Martin. So I'm not sure how that applies as a criticism of Bader. As for CF - he should be starting in CF anytime Buxton isn't. That's basically the main reason he has a role on this team. (And why I think the signing was right) We don't have any other legitimate major league centerfielders, certainly not any that are good at playing it. As for how many ABs...I don't know. Unfortunately, his defense I think buys him a lot of time until they can either acquire a replacement or one magically springs up out of the farm. (Which...I don't know about you...but do you see a guy who can do that? I don't.) My issue with this is people are misdirecting their anger I think. They're mad we don't have better, younger, cheaper options. Totally fair complaint. But....the FO would be fools to roll into the season with Byron Brittle Buxton in CF and no capable defensive backup. That or they're mad at the way the team substitutes. Also legit...I share that. Bader or not...they're doing it. So at least with Bader we have a guy with some history of hitting LHP and brings a known quantity in his glove. So I guess that's where I'm at....it seems like misdirected frustration leading to less than fair arguments.

With all due respect, and I appreciate your post, but this only furthers my point: you've defined the terms of the discussion in a way that doesn't allow for any meaningful discussion. The FO has to evaluate what they project the season to produce and where their roster needs to be supplemented. Your desire that they have an ever ready supply of AAA players to do this is grand and wonderful, but not realistic. Rendering the discussion down to a bunch of what-ifs only makes continuing it a pointless exercise.

In the case of Bader, I don't think those are valid criticisms. Might he be over-used by the front office/manager due to platooning? Sure, but if that's the usage it blocks literally no one of importance in the farm. If (when) Buxton misses time, his primary role is one no one else in the minors is ready to fill. So I find that half of the criticism bunk. Opportunity? Well, maybe on E-Rod, but he has his own health concerns and his call-up likely depends more on the available ABs at DH/LF/RF, on which Bader may have some impact but is unlikely to cost him a roster spot for those positions. Those opportunities are going to be driven by his production and the health of Larnach, Wallner, Castro, etc. If we're going to apply those "when/how/why" we ought to do so more fairly than we seem to be doing in the case of Bader. "But what about Austin Martin!" just doesn't motivate me much Mrs. Flanders.

Except this line makes the discussion moot and that's why this thread and the other one have circled. If your argument basically boils down to "The team should be developing these relatively low end players (or high end ones for that matter) so free agency isn't required" - you will have a 100% agreement on that on this board. But that's a counterfactual. It's a hypothetical. One we may all agree ought to be the case, but when you're filling out a roster and making decisions about how to win games, no longer becomes a valid argument. It's like saying, after the game, that if we had just hit a homerun to go up 3-2 we'd have won! Yeah, of course.....but we didn't. That's not the reality of what we're dealing with. Which then requires you to have a real conversation about who the players in question really are and what they do, in reality, for your chances to win games. If Harrison Bader blocks out Matt Wallner (as happened last year) that's a horrifically stupid decision by the team. But signing Harrison Bader because you've failed to develop a requisite talent your roster needs....is just resource management/gap filling. We'd all like to have a different, better, cheaper option. We don't. And that is the realm within which the conversation should be happening, not counter-factuals.

It should mean nothing. The fact that it might mean something is why I really don't like the France move.

I think most of the bad arguments around Bader are Terry Ryan Free Agency PTSD. TRFAPTSD is a real condition. One I totally understand, but does lead to some conclusions I don't always agree with.

Agreed, but that's why I understand the France complaints and am mystified by the Bader ones. Bader clearly fits.

One thing I do think is worth pointing out in these "floor" conversations is that a roster with depth is a major component to a successful season. I don't have an issue with this team adding veterans that provide specific, needed skills to the roster. There seems to be a lot of False Dilemma going on in the last week. As someone who has stood tall to play more Nick Gordon, Matt Wallner, Eddy Julien, and many others....I appreciate the concern that we don't want to block young players. Like many of you, I'm old enough to remember how we wasted huge chunks of our available resources on guys like Rondell White. That concern resonates with me. But there is a balancing act between providing opportunity and leaving yourself pressing prospects who aren't ready into professional games. We can do both. Harrison Bader doesn't mean E-Rod will never see the light of day. Columbe doesn't mean Varland should get a job at Kwik Trip. I promise....we can do both.

This is a major issue I have as well. None of our young players seem to be maximizing their athleticism/talent as fielders.

I see the logic and the fit for Bader. I don't for France. It's nice the deal is non-guaranteed, I just don't know why you do it at all. Dejong? Sure, I see it. This? Nope.

Miranda is the right choice, but I really hope he put some work in on his body to help be a more durable, nimble player. Our depth behind him is "wreck the season" levels of bad.

I agree.....Bader won't make everyone else not hit like garbage. It's a high ask for 6M on the free agent market and I'm not sure he's up to it. But we're over-thinking this move. Martin can start in AAA. Injuries will happen. (Ya'll remember we have Carlos "No Feet" Correa and Byron "I've never met an injury I couldn't catch" Buxton...right?) All I see Bader as is a floor raiser from Martin. The Twins, as much as I'd like them too, were never going to patch 6M with 6M and another 5M from the Pohlad's coin holder in their limo and sign an actual talent. It sorta is what it is. If we're shopping at Dollar General, this guy fits some needs.

I think you lost the thread of your argument. Yes, the NFL and NHL are much fairer systems. NBA as well, but that system is far too convoluted. Championships are a poor metric of parity in all leagues, but baseball chief among them. With the Super Bowl in the rearview mirror, I get the tendency. People think the existence of dynasties or repeat contenders is a knock on parity, but that simply isn't true. A good system should allow for teams that are sound decision makers to thrive. And thrive often! (If they keep making good decisions with their competitively balanced resources!) It also gives those without the benefit of an LA TV market or a Yankees branding power the ability to truly compete with draft picks, free agents, and others. MLB doesn't have that and the data clearly shows that those advantages do have an effect on winning. All I want is a league, like the NHL and NFL, where your competency with your resources and leadership decides your fate, not your market size.

Why do we continue to think that the manager and the FO aren't on the same page on this strategy?