5 Scenarios That Could Open Up Regular Playing Time for Alex Kirilloff

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Why is Nick Gordon much less of a defensive risk? Mookie Betts came up as an infielder and moved to RF because of Pedroia. He's continued taking ground balls in fielding practice his whole career. Nick Gordon has fewer than 300 more IF innings in the majors than Mookie. Mookie is a terrible example, and he's superior to Nick Gordon in every way, even on paper.

Is occasional once a week? Once a month? Everyday for a 2 week Miranda demotion? 3 times during a 2 week Miranda demotion? 3 times a week for the rest of the season to rotate everyone through? Occasionally has a pretty big range of what it could mean.

I wouldn't send Miranda down to AAA to get Kirilloff in the lineup. I'd consider DFAing Solano to get Kirilloff up maybe. I'm not happy with the current production from Miranda or Larnach, but I don't think either of them would be served well from a demotion. They need to figure out major league pitching. Can't do that in AAA. They've graduated and they need to make the major league adjustment. But Farmer taking some time from Miranda at 3B starting next week, and Kirilloff taking some time from Larnach in LF starting next week would be a plan I'd endorse. Neither of which include Gordon at 3B, even "occasionally."

You can't use both "fewer than 300 more IF innings in the majors" against Gordon. While using "Taking ground balls in fielding practice his whole career" in Bett's favor. I hope you understand why I will not accept that. You also can't state (earlier discussion) that Gordon has been slid down the defensive ladder as a sign of defensive issues but yet it's ok for Betts to slide down the defensive ladder without that tag. 

Isn't it better to assume that Gordon was the better OF choice amongst Simmons and Polanco so he grabbed a bigger glove  to get some major league work in and help the club because that was where the team could use him. I'm ok with the assumption that Betts would have been the better choice to slide into OF work to get his bat in the lineup compared to Pedroia or Bogaarts sliding out there. 

Besides if you want to use that logic... why didn't Boston than slide Betts back to 2B when Eduardo Nunez was their 2B or 2019 when Brock Holt was the guy. 

Actually you are making my argument. Boston in an attempt to get a better bat into the lineup... they put Betts in a place where he could immediately help and that is really what I'm talking about and teams do this sort of thing often. I don't have the time to research it but I could come up with quite a large list if I did. Players slide around as needed and fantasy players get multi position eligibility after 10 games of it.  🙌

Gordon has 4,599 Innings of work at SS in the Minors. Gordon has more experience in the IF. Now if you have some defensive metrics that suggests that Boggs had an ultimate zone rating off the charts in those minor league days... I'll take a look before dismissing them due to my zone rating small sample size bias. 😀  Until then, we have two players who are both multi-positional.  

Occasional... As needed. As Earned. I can't predict the future but if Miranda is sent down... someone has to play the position. Farmer can handle the bulk but maybe Rocco is going to want to work Gordon into the game like he is doing now. Gordon will get some occasional games at 3B. Easy Enough. Let's say Gordon starts hitting the crap out of the ball and Farmer is Miranda version #2. At that point... let's make it more than occasional because you are going to want Gordon's bat in the lineup. 

Let's say you are right and Gordon turns out to be a nightmare at 3B like you are worried about. OK... fix that problem if it occurs... just like we are trying to fix the Miranda chasing balls above his head problem right now. We don't have to keep trotting Gordon out to 3B like it is forever. You make another move. How is Kirilloff playing now that we found him a roster spot and playing time? How is Larnach doing? How is Taylor doing? Can Buxton play CF yet? How is Kepler doing? Occasional is defined by what is necessary. Don't know... it's up to the players to show us what is necessary.   

I think your last paragraph is really the crux of the discussion. The Gordon Betts stuff is just an attempt to look beyond position when trying to improve your team as a whole.  

I agree that sending down Miranda and Larnach really doesn't do much for them and I don't believe that Kirilloff waiting his turn in AAA doesn't do much for Alex at this point either. It is what it is. However, letting Miranda and Larnach struggle doesn't do much for us and we are a contending team. Hit or get off the pot. Come back and try again later when we call upon you. 

Having options mean you can be optioned. It isn't entirely fair to the young player but the CBA is an agreed upon document. 

Cutting Solano? If he isn't contributing. I'm behind this. Right now... I don't see Solano as the problem but if he is just going to hang around and be a short side platoon. If Rocco isn't playing him... Bye... See ya Later. Because you are now a roster spot that is preventing us from bringing up a guy who might move the needle. 😎

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I hope you can understand why I will not accept comparing Nick Gordon to a first ballot HOFer in any way. I hope you can understand why I will not accept suggesting Nick Gordon is better, let alone "much" better, at anything on a baseball field than Mookie Betts. Mookie Betts has been one of the 10 best defenders (and overall players) in baseball for a decade. It wasn't a secret that they were moving Gordon because of defensive concerns. Mookie didn't move because he couldn't play mIF, he was moved because the Red Sox had 2 all stars up the middle already, and he didn't move back because he's a multi-time gold glove winner in RF and there was no need on his teams for him to move. Mookie Betts is faster, has better hands, and a better arm than Nick Gordon. Gordon is not only not "much less of a defensive risk" than Mookie, he's much more of a defensive risk, and it's not even close. Nick Gordon has spent his career struggling to stay on a mediocre MLB roster. Mookie Betts is a first ballot HOFer. They're not the same.

I'd love to see a list of guys who moved to LF and 2B because of arm concerns who then moved to 3B. It'd be a fascinating list.

There's a difference in their ability to be multi-positional. I've played OF in softball in recent years, but I wasn't good at it. I'm technically "multi-positional," (since I'm normally an IFer) but it doesn't mean you should use me in the OF. 

You say "if it's a problem, fix it then" as if they're going into it completely blind. They know Nick's capabilities. He's not some random guy off the streets. They've watched him play 4599 innings of SS. They know if he can handle 3B. There's a reason he's only played 23 innings of it in his career. I'm all for flexibility, and having versatile pieces you can move around. But putting guys in spots they can't play (Gordon at 3B, Gallo or Kepler in CF) on anything other than an emergency basis doesn't win you more ball games. We weigh defense differently, clearly, so simply won't agree on this. I have no desire to have a White Sox style defense. It loses games. It's lost them multiple games to the Twins alone this year.

I don't think Solano is the problem, but I'm not interested in corner defenders who are defensive liabilities and only hit on the short side of a platoon (same reason I don't like when they have Garlick on the roster). He was great for the Twins early, and I have no problem with Solano. He can put the bat on the ball with the best of them. But he's not very important when it comes to the Twins maximizing their win total this year. Miranda and Larnach are, or at least could/should be. Larnach can't adjust to major league pitching in AAA. Either he's going to figure it out, or he isn't. Having him mash AAA pitching and then coming back still needing to adjust to major league pitching doesn't help the team. If I were in charge, he'd have until next week when Kirilloff can be called up to start showing signs of life or I'd put him on the bench as a pinch hitter/part time player and give Kirilloff his ABs. To get Kirilloff on the team you have to remove someone. Castro is going to go for Farmer, I'd expect, and that leaves just Solano for Kirilloff. If Larnach hasn't figured it out by the time Lewis is ready then I'll send him down, and at that point his future with the team is in question as he's 26, has known struggles hitting major league breaking stuff, and they have multiple other lefty bats pushing for playing time. I'm simply not interested in Larnach's ability to hit AAA pitching. He has to adjust to major league pitching, and it's now a question of how long of a leash he has before he starts getting passed up by other players. Right now Kirilloff is his nearest competition. I'm not a big Wallner believe, but he's closing in fast, too.

I never said better. Does he have to be better than Mookie Betts to play some 3B if needed? 

I am saying... Gordon has a lot more infield experience and I am saying that you seem to be holding things against Gordon that you are using to support Betts.    

I was thinking that I might have some time tonight while watching the game to throw a list together of players that have moved around to accommodate team needs. I decided it wasn't necessary because I know that you know that players get moved around. But... thanks for the heads up... You've got specific qualifiers to filter it down before I even start so yeah... no need.  

I understand that not everybody is going to be able to be multi-positional. I hope to God... you don't think that is what I think. Sano in the OF didn't work out. Perhaps your Sano style softball didn't translate either. Just hit your dinger and drink some beer afterwards it's all your softball team is probably asking of you. 

If you think I'm completely outside of the margins suggesting that Gordon could play occasional 3B in order to find a roster spot for a guy who might hit the ball. You say we won't agree... I agree on that... It's a gap that we will never close.       

I'm sure they have a better idea of Nick's capabilities than I do or you do. I won't argue that. They probably have a better idea of Emilio Pagan or Nick Anderson's capabilities as well. I still trust them but let's recognize the margins that we are probably talking about here. 

If it's my call. Kirilloff can hang a bit in AAA but not much longer to get him past Super Two... I don't know if Super Two will matter because I can't predict his future but it could matter quite a bit if he turns into something wonderful.

An injury will shake him loose soon enough but yeah... other than the catcher positions... I do believe that any position player that goes on the DL... We have the position flexibility to make Kirilloff the next call up and improve this club if Kirilloff is indeed capable.   

Solano... Gordon... Larnach... Miranda... Sing for your supper. When I'm looking to add a bat or something that will help us such as Kirilloff... I'm subtracting from the bottom to make it happen.     

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

You said "much less of a defensive risk." I read that as Nick Gordon is a better infield defender than Mookie (Mookie was a 55 grade infielder coming up), and I'm not willing to say there's anything on a baseball field that Nick does better than Mookie. I'll take Mookie swinging left handed over Nick swinging left handed even! (Kidding. Mostly.) I pointed out Mookie taking infield just to point out that an argument that Nick's been playing it in recent years couldn't be used. Not to hold anything against Nick. Mookie has even played game innings in the infield the last few years. All I'm holding against Gordon is that he wasn't as good a fielder coming up, and hasn't been a great fielder since he's been in the majors. Mookie Betts has been. And Mookie was moved for players significantly better than the players that bounced Gordon.

Yeah, I want filters of guys being moved from, and to, specific spots. A guy moving from CF to LF doesn't mean anything in the context of putting Gordon, or a similar player, at 3B. Guys move. I'm not denying that. But a guy moving from 2B to LF doesn't have any baring on guys moving from 2B/LF/CF to 3B. I don't think the list of guys who match Gordon's profile being moved to 3B would be long, or impressive.

I don't think you think that, but when you compare Mookie and Gordon as both "multi-positional" and leave it at that you're missing a whole truck load of context. Solano is "multi-positional," but I'm pretty sure neither of us want him on the left side of the infield. And at this point the team just expects me to drink beer and keep book. Or provide a good laugh by trying to hit a HR. 😄

I think Gordon at 3B for any more than 3 games in a season would be a bad situation. If that's all you're suggesting as "occasionally" then we can agree. I don't think you're crazy for wanting to try him at 3B occasionally, or prioritizing a bat over a glove, but I have a different balance on the bat vs glove scale, and/or a differing opinion on what certain players are capable of. But if we all agreed I'd have to do work at work all day instead of having debates on the internet, and that doesn't sound like fun.

Betts was only brought up as an example of a player adjusting to team needs at the time they need it... much like my idea for Gordon in order to get a better bat onto the roster. 

It was an example for the purpose of implying a potential defensive down tick in order to keep a better overall lineup on the field. I don't know much about Luke Williams or Yonny Hernadez, they could be defensive superstars at SS but they don't appear to be offensive forces at the plate. Betts helping out in the infield allowed them to send sub .200 hitters like Williams and Yonny down to the minors instead of... I don't know... Trayce Thompson because they have a few extra outfielders while the infield is a little hospitalized. If Betts holds firm in the OF with no consideration whatsoever of playing SS or 2B. Now Williams or Hernandez have to stand a post. They are a better team overall if Betts can do this. 

The Twins could do the same thing and that is what I'm suggesting is possible. When we get into Gordon isn't as good as Betts. We start leaving earth. 

It's not that complicated in my head. Yet complicated getting it out of my head toward others it seems. 

It appears we have our answer. Larnach is going across the river. Kirilloff is here. Now we need Kirilloff to be who we are clamoring him to be. If Kirilloff is what he want him to be. Miranda not being who we want him to be... just might matter a little bit less.  

8 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

But my argument is Nick isn't good enough to do it. You disagree, and that's all good. Sano to RF is also an example of a player switching positions to get a better lineup. That's why I point out their difference in talent. I don't think Gordon at 3B is Sano in RF, but it's also not Mookie anywhere. That's why I don't like the comparison. 

I'm excited to see Kirilloff. I think him and Lewis are the keys to this team taking the next step. I fully expect Kirilloff to be a star. And I hope I'm wrong about Larnach to AAA being a fix. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. But I'm happy to have Alex back. 

A couple of friends of mine... husband and wife... took a weekend trip up to the Northwest Angle to do a little fishing on Lake of the Woods. They got a little bit of money... quite a bit of money actually so they hired a guide service, invited a friend from the university and his daughters.

The guide or guides plural because I guess there were two of them... were going to take them around the lake for about 3 hours but they had some issue with the boat, lost control of it and they end up beaching in on an island deep deep into Canada. Cell phones were useless in the middle of the lake. There was a big argument between the guides because one of them forgot to bring the emergency equipment on to the boat, locator beacons, flares... nothing and apparently this guide was always making mistakes like that because the other guide kept hitting with him his hat and saying that over and over. 

That group of lost boaters... spent a week on that island stranded.

He was telling me the story and I said... that sounds just like Gilligans Island and he thought it was a terrible analogy.   

I thought his analogy standards were too high. Maybe it was me... His wife Lovey agreed with him. So what do I know.