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    5th Starter Candidate: Alex Meyer


    Seth Stohs

    Yesterday, we looked at one candidate for the Minnesota Twins’ fifth starter job out of spring training, Mike Pelfrey. Today, we continue this series by looking at another candidate. He’s the tallest candidate, but he also has the biggest fastball and the most devastating slider. Can Alex Meyer stake claim to a spot in the Minnesota Twins starting rotation on Opening Day?

    Image courtesy of Mark J. Rebilas, USA Today

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    The Background

    Alex Meyer was drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the 20th round of the 2008 MLB Draft. He was offered $2 million but chose to go pitch at the University of Kentucky. Three years later, he received that $2 million bonus anyway. He was drafted by the Nationals with their first round pick, the 23rd overall pick, seven picks before the Twins took Levi Michael.

    The Nationals had him start in Low-A where he made 18 starts before moving up to High-A for seven more starts. Following the season, the Twins acquired the right-hander in a deal that sent Denard Span to the Nationals. In 2013, he made 13 starts for New Britain (in which he struck out 84 batters in 70 innings). Unfortunately, he felt some shoulder discomfort and pitched only in rehab the rest of the season. He went to the Arizona Fall League where he made seven starts to get more work.

    It was clear that the Twins had one main goal for Alex Meyer in 2014: to keep him healthy through the season, and they were successful. He moved up to Rochester and made 27 starts. He went 7-7 with a 3.52 ERA and a 1.38 WHIP. In 130.1 innings, he struck out 153 (10.6 per nine), but he also walked 64 (4.4 per nine). Following the season, Meyer was added to the Twins 40-man roster.

    The Hope

    The Twins last had a true #1, ace starting pitcher in 2008 when Johan Santana was still with the team. Yes, Francisco Liriano had an ace-like season in 2010, but he was unable to show any consistency from year to year, much less month to month. When the Twins acquired Meyer, he immediately gave Twins fans a hope for a future ace, whether that was fair or not.

    Meyer is blessed with good pitches. He has a fastball that sits between 95 and 98 and has even hit triple-digits a few times. He is known to have a devastating slider. With his height, he is able to release his pitches just a little bit closer to the plate which makes it jump on hitters. He has an improving, though still inconsistent changeup. He credited Rochester teammate Yohan Pino for helping him with that pitch.

    We love strikeouts. Missed bats are exciting. We don’t want quick outs. We want strikeouts. One thing that Alex Meyer can do is get strikeouts. In 2012, he struck out 9.7 per nine. In 2013, he struck out 11.0 per nine innings. In 2014, he averaged 10.6 strikeouts per nine innings in AAA.

    The Concerns

    Walks will haunt, right? After walking 3.1 per nine in 2012 and 3.4 per nine in 2013, Meyer walked 4.4 per nine inning at Rochester in 2014. Baseball people often say that for tall pitchers it is more difficult and takes longer to find a consistent release point for their pitches. There are many such examples.

    In an interview on 1500ESPN at Twins Fest, Meyer was asked about that theory. He said that he is fully aware of it, but he finds it to just be an excuse for not throwing strikes. That’s a very responsible, accountable response to the theory. Regardless, for Meyer to be an effective starting pitcher in the big leagues, he is going to have to harness and control his terrific stuff. Moving up the baseball ladder means facing hitters who are generally more patient and don’t swing at as many pitches outside the zone. Big league hitters will make him throw strikes.

    One concern is that Meyer, because of the number of walks and strikeouts, needs to throw a lot of pitches. He frequently was able to only go five innings or less because he was at 85 to 100 pitches by that point. In 11 of his starts, he failed to get an out in the sixth inning. The Twins have a rule that if a pitcher throws more than 30 pitches in an inning, he will not come out for the next inning. That is a pretty standard rule across baseball. He had a three-start stretch in mid-June where he couldn’t get to the fourth inning because of pitch count. He followed that with a stretch of five straight games in which he went exactly six innings, something he did just one more time over his final eight starts.

    That leads to many people wondering if he wouldn’t best be served working out of the bullpen, something he would not be against. However, the goal at this time remains for him to be a starter, and hopefully a frontline starter.

    More Hope and Unfair Comps

    If he does not win the fifth starter job, it is possible that Meyer could begin his career as a bullpen arm. That is how the Twins eased Johan Santana onto the roster (obviously under different – Rule 5 – circumstances), and he turned out well. Meyer could replace Anthony Swarzak as a long reliever and work three to five innings when necessary. Of course, he could also go to the back-end of the bullpen and be a more dominant set-up man. He pitched an inning in relief for Team USA in the Futures Game at Target Field in 2014.

    Many want to compare Meyer to 6-10 Randy Johnson who was just voted into the Hall of Fame last month. He debuted as a 24 year old in 1988 with the Expos. In 1989, he pitched 160.2 innings between Montreal and Seattle and walked 5.4 batters per nine innings while striking out just 7.3 per nine. He then led the league in walks from 1990 through 1992. He finally put it all together in his age-29 season of 1993. He cut his walks in half and became an annual Cy Young candidate, winning five awards and finishing second three more times. It’s fun to compare what Meyer could be to what Randy Johnson was. Is it fair? I don’t know. Comparing a prospect with zero big league innings to a Hall of Famer is fine, as long as fans realize that that result is pretty rare.

    In other words, patience is a must for Meyer, the Twins and Twins fans. So many look at the fact that he turned 25 in January and think that he’s now too old to be a prospect. People really need to stop that. The guy has immense talent, but he does still have things to work on. If he is called up by midseason, he’s still up at 25 and can have a strong career for 12 to 15 years. The Twins need to not listen to any of that and do what is in the player’s best short- and long-term interest.

    Meyer Percentage

    So, if I were to guess the odds that Alex Meyer begins the season as the Twins fifth starter, I would probably put the odds at close to 10%. I think there is a slightly better chance that he starts the season in the Twins bullpen, just due to numbers. If he begins the year in Rochester, this would allow him to work as a starter, getting more innings, working in, and hopefully out of, more situations and continuing to work on his third and fourth pitches.

    Either way, I have little doubt that he will be up in the big leagues before June, whether it is due to injury or ineffectiveness in the rotation or in the bullpen.

    When Jeremy and I asked Meyer in November what his goals are for 2015, the pensive Meyer responded by saying, “Every year I’ve set goals, and this year I won’t. I want to let them come to me. I don’t want to set any expectations because you never know what can happen. I’m going to go out there, wherever they send me, whether it’s Minnesota, Rochester, or in Cedar Rapids. I just want to go out there and pitch as well as I can, continue to get better as a pitcher, and whenever the big leagues calls, you want to make sure you’re ready. I just want to go out there and throw as well as I can. I just hope I can help the team sometime during the year, whether it’s from Game 1 in April or whenever that time would be.”

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    I agree that if he fails as a starter, he would probably be a really good reliever. But let's see if he fails as a starter first.  Perkins went from a below average starter to a really good closer.  I want to ensure we have pursued every avenue first.  I don't think he should be moved to the pen after one more shoulder injury, I am not sure if that is what you are implying.

    I did kind of say that, and I think for the most part I will stand by that, though with the caveat of having it be one more "serious" shoulder injury.

     

    I think for the most part we are basically saying the same thing. I am not advocating for Meyer to be moved to the bullpen right now. I too want Meyer to be a starter until he fails as a starter. However, I think we have different definitions of "fails as a starter" (and there is no "right" definition). I am probably on the more conservative end, and so if Meyer struggles with another shoulder issue this year (making it three years in a row), I would prefer to have him switch roles before suffering something catastrophic. But I can definitely see the viewpoint where "fails as a starter" means something much more serious has happened. And if I recall correctly, I'm pretty sure Perkins dealt with a couple seasons of fairly serious issues before he was moved out of the rotation.

    I did kind of say that, and I think for the most part I will stand by that, though with the caveat of having it be one more "serious" shoulder injury.

     

    I think for the most part we are basically saying the same thing. I am not advocating for Meyer to be moved to the bullpen right now. I too want Meyer to be a starter until he fails as a starter. However, I think we have different definitions of "fails as a starter" (and there is no "right" definition). I am probably on the more conservative end, and so if Meyer struggles with another shoulder issue this year (making it three years in a row), I would prefer to have him switch roles before suffering something catastrophic. But I can definitely see the viewpoint where "fails as a starter" means something much more serious has happened. And if I recall correctly, I'm pretty sure Perkins dealt with a couple seasons of fairly serious issues before he was moved out of the rotation.

     

    I tend to very much prefer having talent in the rotation.  One more shoulder injury may have me tinker with his mechanics to limit the shoulder issues.  If that doesn't work, let it rip in the pen.

    I tend to very much prefer having talent in the rotation.  One more shoulder injury may have me tinker with his mechanics to limit the shoulder issues.  If that doesn't work, let it rip in the pen.

    Exactly. IF that happens, there are several starters to replace him for a spell. Then you can try those with less talent. And Berrios could be a real surprise before you know it. 

    Exactly. IF that happens, there are several starters to replace him for a spell. Then you can try those with less talent. And Berrios could be a real surprise before you know it. 

    I am way more excited to see Berrios suit up as a Twin than I am about Meyer. I Meyer the next Morrow, only taller?

    Edited by jimmer

    Sorry if you folks have heard this one from me before, but I hate the rotation projections.  Meyer does not project to be a #3 starter; #3 starters don't throw 98 with ++ strikeout potential.  Meyer projects to be a #1-2 starter or back of the bullpen arm. 

     

    I'm sorry if their rating criteria doesn't match the real life model of a MLB rotation, but that doesn't change the fact that their evaluations are misleading.  Fireballing relievers have a repertoire and velocity more in common with front of the rotation arms than they do with the traditional command concious mid-rotation arms.

    Sorry if you folks have heard this one from me before, but I hate the rotation projections.  Meyer does not project to be a #3 starter; #3 starters don't throw 98 with ++ strikeout potential.  Meyer projects to be a #1-2 starter or back of the bullpen arm. 

    I wouldn't read too much into "#3 starter" type projections.  Obviously the quality of a #3 starter varies by the quality of the staff/team.  And nobody agrees much on "ace" criteria (are aces the top 30 starters in MLB?  15?  45?) so I wouldn't expect much agreement on other rotation spots either.

     

    Meyer could achieve this hypothetical "#3 starter" level and still be an acceptable #1-2 on many clubs, easily on this Twins club, and especially if he can reliably repeat that performance.

    I wouldn't read too much into "#3 starter" type projections.  Obviously the quality of a #3 starter varies by the quality of the staff/team.  And nobody agrees much on "ace" criteria (are aces the top 30 starters in MLB?  15?  45?) so I wouldn't expect much agreement on other rotation spots either.

     

    Meyer could achieve this hypothetical "#3 starter" level and still be an acceptable #1-2 on many clubs, easily on this Twins club, and especially if he can reliably repeat that performance.

     

    True, in the sense that Detroit's #3 is better than the Twins #3 last year....

     

    But when scouts say #3 starter, I am guessing we are talking 3.90 to 4.30 ERA.  Something in that range.  I think Meyer could be much better than that over time.

    FWIW, Kiley on Fangraphs today said he thinks Meyer is a future closer, not starter.....

    yup, I was the one who asked the question in the chat :-)  Additionally on page one of this thread, I pointed out his breakdown of Meyer where he said most scouts consider him a future closer and Kiley said #3/#4 starter or closer.

    The only concern I have with Meyer is that the few times I checked the AAA box score, it seems like he threw a lot of pitches and would barely get 5 IP. I will be the first to admit I did not read every box score or every overview each time he pitched. That was just the tendencies I noticed from occasional readings.

     

    I am a big fan of his and I hope he gets a spot in the rotation. However, I have a feeling Milone gets it and we see Meyer in AAA to start the year.

    The only concern I have with Meyer is that the few times I checked the AAA box score, it seems like he threw a lot of pitches and would barely get 5 IP. I will be the first to admit I did not read every box score or every overview each time he pitched. That was just the tendencies I noticed from occasional readings.

     

    I am a big fan of his and I hope he gets a spot in the rotation. However, I have a feeling Milone gets it and we see Meyer in AAA to start the year.

     

    He defnitely through a lot of pitches, but he was on a pitch count of about 80 a game for most of the season.  That played a role too.

    I wouldn't get caught up on his age.  His birthday was Jan. 3

    Seems the point he was making about Wimmers is that it's about time to see what he has.  And my point is, it's about time to see what Meyer has.  Past time on both, really. The fact that Meyer JUST turned 25 doesn't change that.

    Edited by jimmer

    I don't get moving Meyers to the bullpen at all.  He has been working and getting stretched out for role of a starter for the past 3 years.  If the Twins need a reliever, pull one of the guys out the minors.

     

    On another note:  Why is Gibson's spot on the rotation a lock?  When he was on, he was very good.  When he was off, he way off.  I'd call his spot 'pending competition', with Nolasco's next in line.

    How many #3 starters have two plus pitches?  A 96+ fastball and a 89 mph wipeout slider?  I think Baker in his prime. That is a #3 starter.  He did not have those pitches.

    Liriano comes to mind and I guess he has run the full gamut from #1 to #5 while having up to 3 plus pitches.    I am anxious to see Meyer but basically promotions should be earned.   May had a better body of work last year than Meyer.  

    Regarding liriano, I would argue he probably had the best slider in the game and a plus plus fastball, before tj. After his slider was probably the only plus offering and even that was on a lower level than pre tj. I saw a classic game last year. Hitters were missing his slider by a foot. The heater was 97. Man.

    "I have little doubt that he will be up in the big leagues before June"

     

    my head is spinning. If he's not up in April something has gone wrong. He should have been up LAST june. The Twins keep waiting for consistency, fine, but Nolasco was consistently bad, and Kyle Gibson was consistently inconsistent, so that argument seems laughable. Let the kid pitch and see what he can do. There's no time like the present.

     

    ALEX MEYER 2015!

    Nolasco has many years of a solid track record and a large contract. Gibson did enough to be in the rotation on OPening Day. Of course, that's still subject to change after a couple of months. 

     

    I think the article (and I may be biased since I wrote it and read all box scores throughout the year) pretty clearly gives plenty of reason to give Meyer a month or so in AAA to work through some things. It won't hurt him at all. 

     

    Meyer is going to get up to the Twins in 2015. There's no doubt, unless he's hurt. But he's going to make it. One or two months is not going to make a huge difference. Talking to him a little bit, he will handle whatever decision they make very well and be better for it. 

    FWIW, Kiley on Fangraphs today said he thinks Meyer is a future closer, not starter.....

    ...... and it is worth absolutely nothing. These guys are wrong so many more times than they are right. He could be right, but no team would not try him as a starter first. Hey....... John Smoltz's furture was in the bullpen, too, but not until several years as a starter. 

    ...... and it is worth absolutely nothing. These guys are wrong so many more times than they are right. He could be right, but no team would not try him as a starter first. Hey....... John Smoltz's furture was in the bullpen, too, but not until several years as a starter. 

    Kiley never said they shouldn't try him as a starter.  He, and many other scouts, just think eventually he'll be a closer. I don;t know why this evaluation upsets so many people.  These guys get paid for their opinions because they're good at it, not because they are perfect at it.

    We have 52 replies but one question:  what do we have?  Is he a late-inning stopper?  A top of the rotation guy?  A long reliever?  A #3?  You have to let this guy pitch!  He's going to be whatever he is, but his confidence is not going to increase or decrease depreciably in minor league baseball.  He has big-league talent, and he needs to slot in to this team now.  He's way past worrying about his ego getting bruised by being hit.  He might rise to the occasion but we are never going to find out until we put him on the field.  He does not strike me as a pitcher who needs more seasoning.  Whatever strengths or shortcomings he has, he is ready to work them out in the big leagues.

     

    Ready or not ready, he's a big boy.  I think he's ready - to find out.  (I know I am ready to find out).

    We have 52 replies but one question:  what do we have?  Is he a late-inning stopper?  A top of the rotation guy?  A long reliever?  A #3?  You have to let this guy pitch!  He's going to be whatever he is, but his confidence is not going to increase or decrease depreciably in minor league baseball.  He has big-league talent, and he needs to slot in to this team now.  He's way past worrying about his ego getting bruised by being hit.  He might rise to the occasion but we are never going to find out until we put him on the field.  He does not strike me as a pitcher who needs more seasoning.  Whatever strengths or shortcomings he has, he is ready to work them out in the big leagues.

     

    Ready or not ready, he's a big boy.  I think he's ready - to find out.  (I know I am ready to find out).

    There are more things happening that developing Meyer, or for that matter May and every other minor league pitcher worth considering for a major league job.  The paying fan base is deteriorating--fast!  Complaints include more than just losing:  games decided too early, unknown and underqualified pitchers, and the admission from management that the pitching is to blame.  The executive committee has to fix things fast or risk winning in the future with an empty stadium.

    Kiley never said they shouldn't try him as a starter.  He, and many other scouts, just think eventually he'll be a closer. I don;t know why this evaluation upsets so many people.  These guys get paid for their opinions because they're good at it, not because they are perfect at it.

    Doesn't upset me in the least.   Don't know why lack of control plays better as closer or long relief than it does as a starter, though.

    There are more things happening that developing Meyer, or for that matter May and every other minor league pitcher worth considering for a major league job.  The paying fan base is deteriorating--fast!  Complaints include more than just losing:  games decided too early, unknown and underqualified pitchers, and the admission from management that the pitching is to blame.  The executive committee has to fix things fast or risk winning in the future with an empty stadium.

    Is this an argument to go with a veteran? Meyer and May will likely struggle. I would have given all of Correia's starts to them last year, but I am not certain they would have performed better in their rookie year. I do think that there second 25 starts would be better than their first 25. I doubt Viola brought in many fans in his first 50 starts.

    On another note:  Why is Gibson's spot on the rotation a lock?  When he was on, he was very good.  When he was off, he way off.  I'd call his spot 'pending competition', with Nolasco's next in line.

    Absolutely. I'd also add, that a lot of times when Gibson was "off," he wasn't really that off. He was just being a contact pitcher and achieving the mixed results that are the nature of the beast.

    Edited by Willihammer

    Is this an argument to go with a veteran? Meyer and May will likely struggle. I would have given all of Correia's starts to them last year, but I am not certain they would have performed better in their rookie year. I do think that there second 25 starts would be better than their first 25. I doubt Viola brought in many fans in his first 50 starts.

    Not an arguement but an observation/conclusion. 

    Absolutely. I'd also add, that a lot of times when Gibson was "off," he wasn't really that off. He was just being a contact pitcher and achieving the mixed results that are the nature of the beast.

    His, of course, being extra mixy thanks to our "how many DHs can we put in the field" strategy of defense.

    His, of course, being extra mixy thanks to our "how many DHs can we put in the field" strategy of defense.

    Exactly.  He had a FIP of 3.80, but an ERA of 4.47.  Not surprisingly, Gibson was hurt pretty badly by the 'defense' we had out there.  Too bad that wasn't addressed this offseason.

    His, of course, being extra mixy thanks to our "how many DHs can we put in the field" strategy of defense.

    Certainly didn't help. Gibson's a GB pitcher though. GBs have a higher BABIP than FB's, that might explain some of the FIP-ERA spread.

     

    In any case, unless he figures out a way to strike out more batters I don't see why he deserves a leg up on any of the 5th starter candidates.




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