Article: Twins vs White Sox, 07-25-2012, 1:10pm

[minn55441]

Last off season, most the people I know, blamed the Twins record on injuries and some genuinely thought it was a simple fix away. This season it is much easier to see this team isn't a quick fix from contention and hopefully management makes decisions accordingly.

the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?

[Boom Boom]

To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?

You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

 

Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

[twinsnorth49]

You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

 

Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

 

Thank you

[minn55441]

Hanley Ramirez was the most talented player traded so far this season. Will the Dodgers win even more games now that they have more talent? Ozzie couldn't make all of that talent work in Miami, so they are now trading away pieces. They aren't trading away the guys "without talent", they are trading away the guys "with talent" that didn't fit.

 

Managers play a huge role in baseball, because the teams with the most talent don't always win. The managers that get the most out of their players win games.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Anything can happen in one game, in a short tournament, especially in hockey. Anyway, the US beat the Finns to win the gold. In the mid to late nineties Canada decided they would go down the picking the players who best fit the system road in international hockey and they sucked. Once they decided to just take the best players and work the system to fit them, they have been much more successful.

 

Talent first, everything else next.

Yes, I know that, I watched the games, all of them, and I stand by my assessment that their gold medal was not a fluke due to luck or small sample size - they were the best team at the tournament, and not because they had the best players.

[Hijinks]

the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?

I agree, I just don't see how we would acquire 4 more quality pitchers. Diamond has been great and hopefully will continue to be good next year. The Pohlads would have to spend a significant amount of money to sign free agents and history would indicate the are not likely to do that. Unless I am missing a number of significant prospects being ready next year, it doesn't seem like a fix that will occur during the offseason but more likely over the next few years.

[Ultima Ratio]

Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

 

What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

 

Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.

[Hijinks]

Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

 

What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

 

Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.

No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.

[Ultima Ratio]

You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

 

Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

If you look back through the thread, you'll see that you are agreeing with me on this point but not trying to confuse by calling both measurable stats = talent as well as the immeasurable though equally real causes of success.

[Ultima Ratio]

No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.

Yep

[twinsnorth49]

Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

 

What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

 

Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.

Ok, maybe a bit sidetracked, I don't believe you can bottom this team out for 4+ years, the cost is too high. The team needs to give hope to the buying public that they can be remotely competitive in order to afford the kind of team and players everybody wants. That being said, the stable on the farm needs refilling and obtaining prospects who can move through the system faster is the only way we're going to contend again.

[DaveW]

What a complete disaster of a series. Not one good thing to take away from it.

[snepp]

What a complete disaster of a series. Not one good thing to take away from it.

Blackburn hastened his demotion back to AAA?

[jctwins]

Blackburn hastened his demotion back to AAA?

This.

[peterb18]

I don't believe you can bottom this team out for 4+ years, the cost is too high. The team needs to give hope to the buying public that they can be remotely competitive in order to afford the kind of team and players everybody wants. That being said, the stable on the farm needs refilling and obtaining prospects who can move through the system faster is the only way we're going to contend again.

The above statement makes a lot of sense. Player acquistion, player development, and fielding a competitive team, depends on the Pohlads. They will decide(the Pohlads) when this team will be competitive again. I don't know how important fielding a winning team is to them? Remember, this is the ownership that tried to sell the team a few years ago, and also would have contracted the team a few years later.