Kris Bryant Files a Grievance against the Cubs for keeping him in the minors

[DaveW]

Couple notes:

1. In regards to the Papelbon thread, these things happen and are UNION pushed.

2. With the CBA coming up for a new agreement, these will happen more and more.

3. Twins should take note, if Berrios kills it in ST and is clearly one of the Twins best options, this could come to effect them as well.

 

All things considered, I think it's B.S overall that teams can keep a guy down an extra two-three weeks to keep him cheap/keep him from reaching FA a year earlier, the owners and leagues make a ton of money, players should be able to get their fair market value when they earn it (not because a team like the Cubs kept you down a few weeks into the season)

[Seth Stohs]

It's definitely a balancing act. No matter where the collective bargaining agreement comes up with the free agent line, teams are wise to push it for business purposes. 

 

Especially with a starting pitcher early in the season, they can claim to be a 5th starter and not be needed for 2 or 3 weeks. Only need like 2 weeks to get past the date. 

 

The Twins have proven in the past that if a player earns it in spring training, they'll have him on the roster. 

[biggentleben]

This was filed in May, but not allowed to be public until yesterday. He has good grounds, but his case is more he said/Cubs said than Papelbon's.

[Mike Sixel]

He has no chance to win this.

 

The easy fix for this is to declare everyone a FA based on their age......if you aren't signed to a MLB contract when you are 28, you are a FA. Phew, that was hard.

[DaveW]

 

It's definitely a balancing act. No matter where the collective bargaining agreement comes up with the free agent line, teams are wise to push it for business purposes. 

 

Especially with a starting pitcher early in the season, they can claim to be a 5th starter and not be needed for 2 or 3 weeks. Only need like 2 weeks to get past the date. 

 

The Twins have proven in the past that if a player earns it in spring training, they'll have him on the roster. 

I'm totally with the teams doing what they are doing, the union never should have gave in on this to begin with.

I don't think he wins it, but by filing the grievance it sets this stupid rule to get phased out in the next CBA anyways.

[biggentleben]

I completely respect Bryant's position on this, and it sucks for young players, but frankly, for the economics and sustainability of the game, baseball is the one sport that has this right. Think of the long list of NFL first-round picks that busted and yet had millions of dollars in guaranteed money. Even worse, think of the NBA first-round picks that busted and had that same big money. In major league baseball, there is a signing bonus upon drafting, but the big money for actually playing that game is controlled somewhat, which allows a team to mentor a player into the big leagues, easing a transition from the minor leagues into the major leagues as needed.

 

You simply don't see Carson Palmer/Jon Kitna situations anymore in the NFL because no one in their right mind would draft a guy 1-1 and have him hold a clipboard all season, let an Aaron Rodgers/Brett Favre situation where you have a guy learn the game for multiple seasons behind an experienced starter as a back-end of the first round pick. The NFL game requires those first round guys to produce immediately, as does basketball (I'll be honest that my knowledge of the NHL is limited enough to not know how this plays out there). The main reason isn't winning, it's absolutely financial. You have that player for four or five years for significant money invested, and you need to get your money's worth out of that player, not let him stand on the sidelines or sit on the bench observing the game. Heck, even Kevin Garnett wasn't a starter in his first season with the Timberwolves, not even getting his first start until the 9th of January in his rookie season, and not becoming the full-time starter until January 30th that season. That simply doesn't happen with the #5 pick in the draft anymore in the NBA. 

 

For all the things baseball does to screw over its players, this is one that I think actually may help the quality of the game and the players in the long-term as well.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I simply cannot get worked up when a billionaire games a system to prevent a millionaire from becoming a more millionaire. As long as the pubic continues to feed the monstrosity that is professional sports with free money in stadiums and tax credits, none of it really matters IMO.

 

Wake me when baseball starts to give a damn about the guys toiling away in the minor leagues.

[nicksaviking]

This was part of the CBA.  I don't know why the Cubs can't flat out say, "Yeah, we held him down for two weeks so we could have him for six years instead of five."

 

I mean seriously, is there really a gripe with the tactic? It may not seem fair to the player, but it's the agreed upon method and is certainly best for the fans.  The Cubs are lucky, they could keep a Scott Boras client after five years of super-star level play.  What if was on the Twins?  It's be five years and out without a doubt.

 

If they want to change the system, why not have the service time cutoff be more inline with the end of the year.  That's when playoff teams need to have their best players up AND bad teams want to evaluate what they have in their young players.

[DaveW]

 

I simply cannot get worked up when a billionaire games a system to prevent a millionaire from becoming a more millionaire. As long as the pubic continues to feed the monstrosity that is professional sports with free money in stadiums and tax credits, none of it really matters IMO.

 

Wake me when baseball starts to give a damn about the guys toiling away in the minor leagues.

Kris Bryant isn't a millionaire yet.

[Mike Sixel]

 

This was part of the CBA.  I don't know why the Cubs can't flat out say, "Yeah, we held him down for two weeks so we could have him for six years instead of five."

 

I mean seriously, is there really a gripe with the tactic? It may not seem fair to the player, but it's the agreed upon method and is certainly best for the fans.  The Cubs are lucky, they could keep a Scott Boras client after five years of super-star level play.  What if was on the Twins?  It's be five years and out without a doubt.

 

If they want to change the system, why not have the service time cutoff be more inline with the end of the year.  That's when playoff teams need to have their best players up AND bad teams want to evaluate what they have in their young players.

 

Get rid of service time completely. do it by age. If a team keeps a pitcher in the minors forever, and then makes him a RP......at age 28 or 29, he'll never get paid REAL BASEBALL money.

 

Just make everyone 28 and older not under contract a FA. Also, anyone that plays any part of, any part, of 4 or 5 seasons in the majors. Really not that hard to change it if either side really wants to change it.

 

And Brock is right, they don't care about the minor league players at all. If they did, they'd give them healthy food in the clubhouse, and a living wage. There is more than enough money to do that. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Kris Bryant isn't a millionaire yet.

He received a $6.7m signing bonus.

[Mike Sixel]

 

He received a $6.7m signing bonus.

 

then he must have spent it all.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Get rid of service time completely. do it by age. If a team keeps a pitcher in the minors forever, and then makes him a RP......at age 28 or 29, he'll never get paid REAL BASEBALL money.

That would wreak havoc with college players in the draft and the ensuing money they receive via signing bonus. They'd all be shunted into the third round and lower because the team is essentially handing away 2-3 cost-controlled years.

[Mike Sixel]

 

That would wreak havoc with college players in the draft and the ensuing money they receive via signing bonus. They'd all be shunted into the third round and lower because the team is essentially handing away 2-3 cost-controlled years.

 

Maybe....but would you really pass on a better player to draft a less likely to succeed guy, just to save 3 years of cost control, most of which won't be used by any player? I realize there are all kinds of possible unintended consequences, but would you rather have more freedom to move if you are successful, or an extra 500K in signing bonus, maybe, for about 15-20 guys who might move spots?

 

Really, the best answer is no long term contracts, say, nothing past 2-3 years. And, everyone w/o a contract is a FA. But that's not happening.

[biggentleben]

 

Maybe....but would you really pass on a better player to draft a less likely to succeed guy, just to save 3 years of cost control, most of which won't be used by any player? I realize there are all kinds of possible unintended consequences, but would you rather have more freedom to move if you are successful, or an extra 500K in signing bonus, maybe, for about 15-20 guys who might move spots?

 

Really, the best answer is no long term contracts, say, nothing past 2-3 years. And, everyone w/o a contract is a FA. But that's not happening.

 

What do you do with the guy who is signed from independent ball at 28? The Braves signed a guy like that who will likely be at AA this year, but he really wasn't worthy of being in even minor league baseball before last season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Maybe....but would you really pass on a better player to draft a less likely to succeed guy, just to save 3 years of cost control, most of which won't be used by any player?

The baseball draft is a much bigger crapshoot than any other draft in sports. I could easily see teams passing over a 21 year old junior or 22 year old senior for a prep guy in that situation.

 

Age just wouldn't work because guys develop at such different rates. Seeing a toolsy position player in MLB at 20 or 21 years old isn't that rare but seeing a catcher at that age is extremely rare.

 

I'm all in favor of changing the rules but doing it strictly based on age doesn't make a lot of sense. Players at different positions (and pitchers) don't have the same development cycle.

 

But if players wanted to reduce controlled years from six to five and close the mid-April service time loophole, I wouldn't have a big problem with that, though owners should demand some kind of salary cap in return. Shortening the FA cycle really damages baseball's parity, as it gives the big market teams more opportunities to grab players at a younger age.

[Mike Sixel]

 

What do you do with the guy who is signed from independent ball at 28? The Braves signed a guy like that who will likely be at AA this year, but he really wasn't worthy of being in even minor league baseball before last season.

 

I don't know, but usually I build systems for the 99% of the world, then create "what do you do with the exceptions". Businesses that build processes for the exceptions are failing businesses.

 

Without much thought.....if a player had played less than 2 years in the US system, they would become a FA after 3 years in the US system. So, foreign players or players like you list would be "under control" for 3 years (or the length of any contract they sign).

[Mike Sixel]

 

The baseball draft is a much bigger crapshoot than any other draft in sports. I could easily see teams passing over a 21 year old junior or 22 year old senior for a prep guy in that situation.

 

Age just wouldn't work because guys develop at such different rates. Seeing a toolsy position player in MLB at 20 or 21 years old isn't that rare but seeing a catcher at that age is extremely rare.

 

I'm all in favor of changing the rules but doing it strictly based on age doesn't make a lot of sense. Players at different positions (and pitchers) don't have the same development cycle.

 

But if players wanted to reduce controlled years from six to five and close the mid-April service time loophole, I wouldn't have a big problem with that.

 

I bet if you look at the draft list now.....it is mostly HS guys already in the early rounds, outside the top 15 or so. 

 

More freedom to move, or the tiny chance that you are one of the 15 guys drafted a round earlier and getting about 100-300K more in signing bonus?

 

One year in the majors is worth more than that. One FA year in the majors is worth 20-50 times that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I bet if you look at the draft list now.....it is mostly HS guys already in the early rounds, outside the top 15 or so. 

 

More freedom to move, or the tiny chance that you are one of the 15 guys drafted a round earlier and getting about 100-300K more in signing bonus?

 

One year in the majors is worth more than that. One FA year in the majors is worth 20-50 times that.

But what about the Byron Buxtons of the world?

 

Let's say Buxton doesn't get injured in 2014. He's on the team in August or maybe September and plays almost all of 2015 in Minnesota.

 

The Twins get eight full seasons of controlled Byron Buxton.

 

Inversely, a guy like Kyle Gibson makes out like a bandit. He plays in Minnesota for all of three seasons and then escapes via free agency, probably earning $80m or more in the process.

 

Basing it on age - along with what Ben said about independent signings - tears apart the system in a way I don't think is beneficial. For every person it helps, it hammers another guy in return.

[Mike Sixel]

then make it 28 or 5 years of any part of any season in the majors.......

 

but punishing college guys from reaching FA until they are 30 or 32? Keeping guys in AAA as failed starters when they could make money as RP for other teams?

 

The system right now is set up to keep contracts artificially down. It is completely rigged in the owners' favor. Free the players up.

[biggentleben]

 

I don't know, but usually I build systems for the 99% of the world, then create "what do you do with the exceptions". Businesses that build processes for the exceptions are failing businesses.

 

Without much thought.....if a player had played less than 2 years in the US system, they would become a FA after 3 years in the US system. So, foreign players or players like you list would be "under control" for 3 years (or the length of any contract they sign).

 

Then in your 99% of the world...what do you do with catchers? They mature much later in their development, frequently a high school guy not hitting the major leagues until his mid-20s.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Then in your 99% of the world...what do you do with catchers? They mature much later in their development, frequently a high school guy not hitting the major leagues until his mid-20s.

 

They are free agents, just like everyone else on the planet except people with contracts. That's not going to kill baseball, but it will move the money from owners to those that actually produce the revenue, the players.

[biggentleben]

It's really quite basic. Pump some money into the minor leagues, increasing the pay for players somewhat, sure, but drastically improving their living conditions, including buses, hotels, and per diems. The biggest issue is the insurance issue. Minor league players having to purchase their own health insurance is bunk to me, and I cannot believe that teams can still get away with this. I'm not terribly worried about the Kris Bryants of the world. I'm much more worried about the Ryan Webers of the worlds, guys who spend near a decade in the minors before getting their first chance in the major leagues.

 

The big thing that opened my eyes on this was the bus crash in the Braves system this year with the Carolina Mudcats. There has been so little information publicly available about the crash that it's disturbing, but the bus they were driving was in very poor repair, the driver was driving beyond the hours he should be driving in a week, and he had alcohol in his system (not beyond legal limit, but enough that he was fired after the crash). It ended the season for one player and derailed the season for multiple others, and the guys I talked with from the club mentioned how two of the guys injured who were too old to be on their parents' insurance had inadequate insurance to cover their medical bills from the crash, and the team took a collection to help. That sort of crap should never happen in a sport where there are nearly 11 figures of profits rolling into the game.

[Mike Sixel]

that is obviously true, minor leaguers should be:

 

paid more

get insurance

get healthy food for free from the clubhouse

be free from their club after a shorter time frame, so the can maybe make the majors elsewhere

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

They are free agents, just like everyone else on the planet except people with contracts. That's not going to kill baseball, but it will move the money from owners to those that actually produce the revenue, the players.

See, I care about MLB player salaries as much as I care about owner profits. I'm much more interested in doing two things:

 

1. Ending public subsidy of professional teams and forcing them to operate as the private businesses they claim to be.

 

2. Taking care of the people who don't make millions of dollars.

 

The rest? Eh, I don't really care that much. MLB already has one of the strongest unions in the nation and the average MLB player makes more than their counterparts in the NFL and NHL. They all trail the NBA due to roster size, which skews basketball's number compared to other sports.

[Mike Sixel]

We aren't debating public subsidies here, but when/how players should be free to pursue another contract or not.

 

I certainly agree on the subsidy issue.

 

The feds should count that as income.....that would change some things.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I just don't see how it's really that big of an issue. The average MLB player salary is double the NFL. Baseball tends to have much longer careers and is much safer to play. The average MLB salary is nearly double the NHL number, another sport more dangerous than baseball.

 

I just can't get too worked up about a player reaching FA one year earlier, particularly when it'll only come with an equally punishing sacrifice by the players, possibly a salary cap. In the end, everyone ends up at roughly the same point they were before the FA rule change.

[Mike Sixel]

Average salary? some guys make 30million a year.......average isn't all that useful a measure.

 

I am worried* about the guys on the margin, who are kept around by teams when other teams might find a way to play them.

 

*well, I have compassion for them....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I simply cannot get worked up when a billionaire games a system to prevent a millionaire from becoming a more millionaire. As long as the pubic continues to feed the monstrosity that is professional sports with free money in stadiums and tax credits, none of it really matters IMO.

 

Wake me when baseball starts to give a damn about the guys toiling away in the minor leagues.

What if Bryant was a 3rd round draft pick?  No millionaire then.  (Heck, second rounders probably don't clear a million after taxes either.)

 

Or maybe outside the top 10 international bonus slots?  No millionaire then either.

 

I'd like to see minor leaguers see an across the board boost in pay and benefits, but that doesn't mean I can't also want the MLB system tweaked to encourage promotions based on merit too.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That would wreak havoc with college players in the draft and the ensuing money they receive via signing bonus. They'd all be shunted into the third round and lower because the team is essentially handing away 2-3 cost-controlled years.

The proposals I have seen would be based on when they sign, not age.  So if a Dominican prospect signs at 16, he would be controlled through, say, 26, while a college player who signs at age 22 might be controlled through age 29.  (Don't pick on my numbers, I just made them up here, feel free to adjust ages/years as you see fit, just trying to communicate the general concept.)

 

And an indy ball free agent signing at age 28, maybe he gets controlled through age 30 or something -- enough to encourage teams to sign him, but also short enough that he can work toward free agency at a reasonable age.