wsnydes

Those plodding oaf CF'ers are the worst.

I'll break the bad news then...he was stranded there.

Attention to detail and the small things are what have impressed me about Rocco so far.

Did Rocco make an offensive substitution at catcher? Cause if he did, I love that!

Agreed completely. The new CBA may play into that quite a bit too. This way he's got his regardless of what happens with that. Obviously the flip side of that is also true, but I'd say that he's minimized his risk very well.

Perhaps they are still working through them and these were the easier deals to wrap up and get signed? I could see Berrios' deal getting drawn out quite a bit given his potential and his age.

I think where our primary differences lie is in the next tier of FA players. In my view, currently the big market teams identify an area where they can improve and go and improve it. That includes the big names, it includes the next tier, it includes all levels of FA. It includes trading for players (i.e. Chris Sale). There are still roster limits and assuming the luxury tax still exists (or something similar to it), it won't be a completely free market for lower tier FA's. Of course, revenue streams will always be a consideration. Part of how the big market teams remain competitive year in and year out is by drafting and developing well and then trading those pieces for areas of need. There's also the flip side of this. The long term risk exposure gets reduced so perhaps the smaller market teams start jumping into the mix on the 2nd tier FAs. I imagine that the big names will still go to the large markets though. In my view, typically what scares smaller market teams away from a FA is the term, not necessarily the dollar though obviously there are instances where both are prohibitive. Obviously the large market teams are better able to absorb the risk involved with 10 year type deals. We can agree to disagree, I'm perfectly fine with that. I've enjoyed the debate!

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not debating that they'd dominate the market. My point is that they're doing it now. Despite the payrolls of the Dodgers, Cubs and Yankees, they're still at the very least reportedly looking in to Machado and Harper. Their payroll or even roster composition doesn't seem to deter them at all. Also, despite having the third highest payroll in MLB, the Red Sox still went out and got JD Martinez last offseason. This coming after an offseason in which they brought in David Price and traded for Chris Sale (with Ortiz coming off the books). You don't see the Rays or Milwaukee or KC linked to these guys, it's still the big market teams. Obviously we don't know where those two are going to land, but it's not going to be in TB. In my view, your scenario just drives the price up for the player and they still just go to a big market - which is what is happening now. There's no difference between the two scenarios in my view. Either way, the best players will still go to the big markets.

So instead of the large market teams gobbling up the big name free agents like they do now, they'd simply do it more efficiently? I'm still not seeing a difference. Either way, the large market teams still gobble up the big name free agents. How they go about it is largely irrelevant. The result is still the same.

Agreed. Certain talents don't just come around that often. I understand the logic and there are going to be circumstances where it will make the most sense, but as a general rule it's short sighted.

That's probably fair. I can't really argue against that logic. My only hang up would be that he didn't actually see the open market so we don't know, but you do make a good point. Your second paragraph parallels the other point I was trying to make. It's not that smaller market teams don't spend on players, they tend to spend on their own. The Twins aren't alone in that thinking (Longoria immediately comes to mind). I don't really like it either, but I do understand the logic to a degree. Part of it is that they often come a bit cheaper plus there is comfort in the known commodity. There are flaws to that logic, but I do get it.

My point was simply that Mauer never hit the open market. I wasn't trying to imply that he was a FA at the time. Using him as a comp doesn't make sense to me because of that fact. It did make for a nice segue into my point of smaller market teams tend to spend money on their own players, not free agents though. I do tend to agree with you in that Mauer gets that deal either way. I do think there's a decent chance he still gets more on the open market after 2010, but we obviously don't know that. Either way, he wasn't going to do worse.

Mauer didn't hit the open market though. He never saw what other teams were willing to pay for his services. He most certainly would have made more elsewhere. While a team like the Twins might be willing to put an offer out there in that range, the large market teams are simply going to outbid them. There's a reason why mid and small market teams don't sign big name free agents under the current system. When smaller market teams spend money on a player, it's almost always one of their own. You are correct that being unwilling and unable are two different things, but in practice under the current system they are essentially the same. Large market teams simply push the salary number high enough that smaller market teams simply can't match. Under your scenario, the Twins would still have the option to put an offer out there but the larger market teams would simply outbid them. So really, what's the difference?

How is that any different than the current system? Nobody expects the Royals or Rays or Twins to make a serious bid for the likes of Harper and/or Machado. It's the large market teams that are the teams that are in the mix.

My understanding was that TR was an adviser/consultant during the Bill Smith era. I know that doesn't preclude that he wasn't in charge of IFA, but that title would imply that somebody else was in charge of IFA. Of course, I could be misremembering.

Because what you meant to say and what I interpreted what you typed are very different things. But I was agreeing with your greater point. While I agree that they need to do a better job of developing young players, it most definitely is a problem, it's not true that they haven't developed impact players. That is what I was trying to show you. I included the FAs for comparisons sake. It's not like every ASG rep was brought in from outside the organization. Perkins was a 3-time all-star (and a really good closer) in that period. Dozier was most certainly an impact player. Berrios is most certainly a impact player. You asked what players developed in the Twins system had been to the ASG since 2006 aside from Sano, and I answered your question. Could and should there be more? Absolutely. The fact that there's not is why the team has been treading water for a decade. But to say that Sano is the only one to come up and make and impact or represent the team in the ASG is false. They do, however, need to do better and that's really the only way that this team is going to get better.

I like this comment because it's correct. I hate this comment because it's correct.

I wasn't trying to argue, calm down. I was even more or less agreeing with you. It's reasonable to interpret that statement the way I did. This is a baseball forum, not a courtroom. That may be what you were trying to say, but that's not how I interpreted this: "Aside from Sano where is are players who came through our system since 2006 ended who has been in an ASG?It's abysmal.It is embarrassing." That said, the answer to your rhetorical question is Dozier and Berrios, but Perkins was a rookie in 2006. It's still an issue, but not nearly as dire as you're making it to out be.

http://www.lisa-legalinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/nothing170125.jpg

Honestly, I'm not convinced that's an issue yet. He hasn't shown that he can be a cornerstone player, so that might be irrelevant. It's entirely possible that the FO will have moved on by that point. It's also entirely possible that he reaches his potential and has had his contract extended by that point. That's kind of the meat grinder that this FO is in. The cornerstones haven't emerged and they haven't brought in anyone that can be built around. Some of that is their own fault, some of it they've inherited some of it is tough luck.

I realize that this isn't really your point, but the ASG representatives from this team has been dominated by homegrown players. Italicized names are non-homegrown players. 2007 - Johan, Morneau, Torii 2008 - Nathan, Morneau, Mauer 2009 - Nathan, Morneau, Mauer 2010 - Morneau, Mauer, 2011 - Cuddy 2012 - Mauer 2013 - Perkins, Mauer 2014 - Suzuki, Perkins 2015 - Perkins, Dozier 2016 - Nunez 2017 - Santana, Sano, Kintzler 2018 - Berrios All that said, it's always the same names on that list and it's probably partially aided by the fact that each team has to be represented. And more to your point, the fact that they've been largely unable to build around anyone since the Mauer/Morneau heyday is, and has been, an issue.

Especially when those two players have had mostly, shall we say, disappointing results thus far. In both cases, we've seen flashes but neither has really put together a full season of performance worthy of building a plan hinging around their performance.

Interesting to see the comments about the Advisory Board. I've thought on many occasions about getting involved, but it always boiled down to not having the time. I've always wondered if it was more lip service than being something the organization would take anything from. The comments seem to reflect what I was worried about. Unfortunate really. That could be a pretty good tool for them to better the overall experience.

We actually had a presale with the same discount, so I don't really see that as a big deal. I didn't partake, so I'm not sure if we got an additional 19% off of the already discounted value or not. We typically have a small window to get regular season games at a discounted rate before they go on sale to the general public. My understanding of how our package seats are priced is that they're priced at a flat rate rather than the weighted variable pricing. I think that's kind of semantics though since each ticket still has a value attached to it when it comes to exchanging them. We can exchange tickets mostly without restriction, but if we chose a more expensive tiered game or seating then we have to pay the difference. However if we choose a cheaper game or seat, we lose what's left over in value. I've not done the math on how much the discount really is, but I believe that it varies with the ticket package and where you get your seats. It's not insignificant.

I'm pretty frustrated with how the last two offseason's have gone. The lack of long term commitment is confusing and frustrating on its own. One thing that I do firmly believe is that ownership has told the FO that they are willing to be patient with a ground up rebuild of not just the roster, but the organization as a whole. That is going to take time. That part I'm on board with. However, I do think that this front office, as well as the preceding one, built themselves into a corner in which it will be difficult to get out of. Some of it has to do with the floundering core of Sano and Buxton. Those two were the linchpins of a resurgent franchise. That hasn't panned out thus far and it appears as though the FO is setting themselves up to completely blow it up or pounce should it actually all come together. There is some wisdom to that approach, except in my view, it seems like they're betting against themselves. The lack of long term investments (financial or otherwise) in players outside of the organization does nothing to solidify any position and provides you nothing to build around. It would seem that they're kicking the same problems down the road which turns into a never ending cycle of mediocrity. It's one thing to wait a bit for the ground up turnover to start making an impact, but doing nothing at the top side to provide any sort of trickle down positive impact is stunting the growth of the franchise in my view. It also does nothing to inspire fans to spend money on the team or come to the ballpark. So by the time this thing gets turned around, there may not be many left around that will actually notice or care. I'm not asking them to go out and buy a new lineup, I'm simply looking for an impact move that can be built upon.