TheLeviathan

I think this conversation should be one people remember in criticizing a manager. We have two sides on the Stewart decision making rational arguments about a hypothetical situation. It's a tough spot to be in to consistently predict which hypothetical is the one to go with. I tend to side with Chief's perspective on the macro level, but that doesn't stop people from complaining on the micro. Maybe it should temper it a bit though.

I'm not in a rush to dump them, but they'll have to show more not to be labeled a flop. The position they were drafted at necessitates a larger contribution than they are currently showing. If these were late first round picks...ok. But they weren't.

I agree with the ideas, executing them will be tough.

Your spin is as optimistic as possible. I'd look at a team that got a lot of career pitching years and a few Nick Ahmed/David Peralta spikes and say things went about as well as humanly possible and they still choked away a playoff spot to a league you say isn't that scary. There is no immediate help on the way, no budget room, and a near certainty that htey lose either Grienke or Corbin. Not to mention Pollack or other notable parts. I agree, talk radio and fans can often be too black and white, but their basis for doing so in this case seems to have some sound footing. We're all speculating, so I could absolutely turn out to be wrong and Grienke is unavailable, but it's the first phone I'd pick up and try.

That is not what is being hinted at in Arizona. They have a barren farm, a loaded division, and a number of guys with pretty decent trade value right now. It's absolutely being discussed. Whether it happens or not is anyone's guess. If they decide not to rebuild and hope to resign guys, it likely frees up Grienke as a salary dump. If they rebuild, he gets moved that way too. I'm guessing he gets dealt sometime this offseason as a way to retain Corbin/Goldschmidt/Pollack.

I would venture to guess this could be said of virtually every post postulating about offseason moves for their favorite baseball team. Sorta misses the point. I can tell you that AZ sports radio has been talking about the need to deal Grienke for about two years now. The biggest mark against my thinking is probably that the D-backs may not be retaining any of their key players and about to embark on a serious rebuild. In that case, Grienke is still available, but perhaps for different reasons and with more willingness by the club to retain salary to improve return.

That's the method behind my madness!

Arizona may give up Grienke as a partial dump. They simply can't afford Corbin/Pollack/Goldschmidt and to keep him. You'll have to give up something, but if the Twins agree to take his whole contract the price might be pretty reasonable. (I think it may even be cheap)

Sorry, i was referring to Escobar. Grienke has 3 years and about 100M left.

I guess it depends what he'll cost. There certainly would be a point at which I walk away. But 8-10M and I'm in.

My detraction is based on about 1,000 at-bats. He had two MVP months, he's had nearly a dozen months as a big leaguer where he was scraping for a .500 OPS.

Go get Grienke. I'd try and bring back Escobar and then here are just a few guys I'd target: McCutcheon (CF insurance, right handed OF, DH) or Leonys Martin, Escobar, Nelson Cruz, and any bullpen guy with a pulse.

I agree, his defense is amazing. Let's get that other important element working too.

And Tyler Austin seems like a pretty useful player going forward.

Agreed, I think if they get that a 7 win season is a given. And it's gravy from that point.

Defense played like a bunch of bad asses. Winfield Jr. is a legit NFL prospect and one helluva player - not just the playmaking ability, but quietly stellar in his role too. It's hard not to look at this schedule and the awful play of Indiana, Illinois, NW, and Nebraska and see an 8 or 9 win team.

I agree, it's important to be ready. But we also know pitchers start losing velocity and a number of other physical side effects as they age. I don't think it's mutually exclusive to worry about both. Get them up ready....and as aggressively as possible.

That only helps my point!

In terms of talent, it might be true that those players are better. In terms of production since the deadline it's really not. (Quick comparison here only) Austin - .783 OPS, Forsythe - .679 OPS/ Dozier - .631 and Escobar .738. There is very little difference there. And what difference there is favors the Twins. May and Drake 3.99 and 3.83 in FIP replaced Pressley and Rodney (1.49 and 4.19) Clearly Pressley is a good player, but even that from a bullpen is not a hugely different outcome. Lynn has been lights out for the Yankees....but tell me one person that saw that coming. I doubt even the Yankees expected what they got from him. Of course, there can be an emotional impact from selling at the deadline, I wouldn't disagree with that. But in terms of the talent being shuffled on the 25/40 man roster as a result of the moves made at the deadline, it's hard to see how the overall talent level and production were radically changed. Even for 2019, only Pressley and Rodney were even counted officially as part of that group. The rest of the players dealt were all on expiring contracts. I just don't see how anyone can make a cogent argument that dealing expiring deals cripples the 2019 40 man (as suggested earlier) or how the overall talent of the team was radically changed. This wasn't a terribly talented team all year due to a confluence of issues that the FO does share blame for. So it really feels like unfair criticism to hammer the FO for selling on a talented playoff team and then hammer them a month later for having the organization in shambles for dealing a handful of meaningful players. (Most of whom are older and/or on expiring deals)

We seem to be talking about two different things. You are talking about the way the team is playing but I'm talking about the talent on the roster. What do you think of the talent on the roster today? What do you think of the talent on the roster July 25th?

Did they have the talent of a playoff contender as of late July? I'm asking you directly because I would assume a rational person who wants the team to invest for the playoffs would consider the team "good". If, for some inexplicable reason, you don't think they were a good team....well then you have another issue of consistency. Or at least of good decision making.

At their current pace Cleveland looks to be about a 90-92 win team. The same Twins team many here think is a 40 man dumpster fire would've had to go 43-13 to surmount that lead. Practically speaking, yes, that's insurmountable.

Are you saying losing Rodney, Pressley, and Escobar is enough to turn the 40 man from a playoff contender to a tire fire? If not, then....yes....you are being inconsistent. If you're saying, yes - those three players are that much of a difference, well then we can talk about that. Because I think that position is demonstrably misguided. Reality is that this is basically the same group, just swap out Lynn, Pressley, Rodney, Escobar, and Dozier for Austin, Forsythe, Drake, and DeJong. I don't see that as a terribly meaningful swap. Certainly not the difference between being awful and being a contender. If you're going to bash the FO for not being wise enough to see the WS contender they had in July and then turn around a month and a half later and claim the 40 man roster is a Titanic....you're going to have to do better than "But what about Rodney!" Your views don't mesh. The only thing consistent is that you want to bash the FO, but your justifications for doing so are basically contradictions.

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire? I don't understand that either. Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on. You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles. That doesn't compute. At least not rationally. And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important. You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

Seems odd to believe the team is bad in July but worthy of a playoff push.