Riverbrian

Have you seen an updated 26 man or 40 man? I've been waiting all day for the update. I'm dying to know.

Although it doesn't seem like it... They actually created multiple options and considerations with the starting staff and on the position player side so off-season trades can be utilized to build the bullpen back up. Also with the Correa deal they potentially created 30 million dollar in budget flexibility that can be partially utilized to build the bullpen back up. Weather that money will be used remains to be seen but they cleared significant money for additions in the off-season. Do I think we will have a bullpen as good as the one we just blew up. Nope...no way... but that doesn't mean we can't cobble something together that ends up mid-pack in comparison with the other 29 teams. The rest of this year... The Bullpen is going to be scary to close out this season but the season is lost it's about discovery in the drips and drabs that discovery will allow. Hopefully one or two arms establish themselves amongst the other 3 or 4 that struggle and need an Uber back to St. Paul. Many of us here are still shell shocked... I'm saying... it may be bad this year but overall... this could be a quicker reloading. But... Damn it... this team has to start developing. Stop with the Ty France filler.

I hope you are wrong as well. 😉 Myself personally... I try to stay as neutral as possible. Past is always past with me. I always assume the coaches are trying to make players better and sometimes they may succeed and I always believe that opportunity and small sample sizes cloud any attempts at assessment. I like to let the players make the determination through performance.

Clearing the path for other SS possibilities would be a consideration but as much as I talk about the need for pre-arb talent. I would still consider it dangerous to lock on to one developing player and prematurely clear space. I think Lee will get the SS spot while Culpepper cooks a bit but I can't be sure.

.970 OPS in AAA right now. 20 Dingers. 14 Stolen bases. He's pretty good defensive player. .933 last year in AAA. I get it... his age isn't great at 28. His 2024 was a disaster at the Major League Level and the Dodgers are not going to have playing time available for a project. His 2023 was fantastic. Power, Speed, Defense is the reward if he can fix whatever ailed him last year. 44 AB's this year doesn't tell me anything. I'm not saying he's a slam dunk but I'd like to see him get a shot with us in a lost year.

Because they can always trade if value is created from the group of OF options. At least, I'm hoping beyond all hope... that this is how the Twins front office sees it. Extra talent to choose from is always a good thing and much better than saying we got nobody to knock Ty France out of the lineup. They will have to utilize the roster completely different than how they have been utilizing it and we will find out starting tonight if they are going to get serious about it. After yesterday... I believe Rocco has no choice but to do it differently starting tonight and actually try and improve players so value is raised.

The Pohlads are cashing out for what they potentially lose in the sale price, over the debt outstanding? I wouldn't know for sure... Maybe... but in the grand scheme of things. They can't get it all back on the Correa contract. It shouldn't effect (or affect) I never know when to use them)) the sales price. The Debt sure should affect (or effect) the sales price because it's reported to be 500 million. Again... No way for me to know but... It's one bad contract out of all of the deals that add up to a total payroll number that is necessary to play competitive baseball. The owner can decide if 144 million a year is too high or too low or just right once he completes the deal and move the needle in the direction of his choosing. Correa's contract in my opinion as a bigger effect (or affect) on the players they can staff around it. Because they will have budgetary guidelines that they have to adhere to. I think the front office just may have wanted some financial wiggle room to work with. This rebuild or whatever this was... isn't done on August 1st. The off-season is an opportunity to correct things, Correa off the books gives them wiggle room to make some moves with actual money.

Lot of talk about salary dump in regards to future ownership. Who knows... but trying to sift through the aftermath. There were only two moves made that could be considered a salary dump and really only one. Correa was clearly a salary dump but IT WAS A LOT OF SALARY. That is game changing money coming off the books... it'll cost them 33 million to save 70 million but the Twins were against a financial wall as things stood and that 25 million will give them some flexibility this off-season that wasn't there prior to the deadline. As regards to new ownership... what are we really saying? Are we saying that the current money on the books (temporarily on the books) will discourage a sale and that by trimming it... it will encourage a sale? Is that what we are saying? If true... that the mid-pack payroll the Twins were rolling out was too rich for the blood of new ownership. If True... Are you all confident that life is going to better with new ownership if temporary payroll for the next 3 years tops is a determining factor on weather a new owner purchases the team. These potential owners need to be smarter than that. If I'm buying a team... I'm a buying a team. The roster condition, payroll on year one, two or three is a temporary starting point, where the franchise goes from there is up to me the owner to take it there. It sends chills down my spine to think that a potential new owner is looking it all over and saying, You know... I'd buy everything looks good, I've looked over the cash flow, I'll absorb this debt, I'll pay the 1.7 billion asking price... but that Correa contract... well... I'm sorry I can't do that... I'm out. Is that really what is happening in the negotiation room? I think it's more plausible that the Astros agreed to take on the majority of money on the back half of a contract that wasn't exactly stunning in the first half of the contract, I think it's plausible that the other 28 teams were probably not that interested and even if they were, a no trade clause would have to be waived. I think it's more plausible that the Twins saw the opportunity and took it. Duran? He was probably due a larger than average arb raise so trading him was going to save some money and I think the financial wall they were going to run into meant someone had to go... but this wasn't a purely financial dump because they got two decent prospects back. The expiring contracts were all moved... with the exception of Vazquez and I'm sure they tried. The surprise came in regards to the bullpen... They emptied that sucker and only Coulombe was an expiring contract. The most plausible explanation to me... doesn't mean I'm right. I think it was a bullpen feeding frenzy and the market was high... so it's possible that the Twins decided to take advantage of the prices being paid. We got back 3 young starters with a lot of potential in return for bullpen guys... don't get me wrong... great bullpen guys but guys who throw 60 innings for 3 guys with the potential for 180 innings. Bradley, Rojas and Abel are 3 guys with decent potential still at a young age.

I'm going to put a helmet on and say this: The smoke hasn't cleared yet but it's not as bad as I feared. Don't get me wrong... the bullpen was absolutely devastated but... Starting pitching was improved and offensively... it wasn't like the numbers produced by those dealt away are impossible to replace. Yeah... I know the bullpen is... well... gone... the rest could be rebuilt rather quickly.

The smoke still hasn't cleared yet. At the moment - 5 40 man spots open. Roster resource currently has 7 26 man spots to fill. 2 SP - Assuming Ober and Bradley will fill. 2 RP - No idea who will fill but there were multiple DFA's yesterday if the Twins are inclined. 3 Position players. We will probably need to add a couple infielders. Ideally one who can play SS and ideally one that can play some 1B. Could probably use an OF added to the 26. Resource is assuming Outman has a 26 man spot. 26 man questions will be answered soon. It does look like we will be much more left handed at the plate. Who knows... smoke hasn't cleared yet. I'm still reaching my hands out to feel for walls walking around the room.

I've been saying all yesterday and today: This is what selling looks like. After the Correa deal. I take that back. This one shocked me.

I was on a baseball stadium road trip back in 2022. I sat down in Coors Field with my Blue Moon Beer and Elvis Shake. The Dodgers vs the Rockies was the matchup. I saw the lineup and wondered who this Outman guy was batting 9th for the Dodgers. And I watched this kid hit a home run in his very first major league AB. I was there and nobody can take that away from me. Because I was there for that moment... I took an interest in him and have been watching him. I'm a fan... despite his recent struggles. He landed an every day job in 2023. 23 Dingers and 16 stolen bases in 587 PA's. An older rookie at age 25 but it's the Dodgers... which can be a tough nut to crack. 2024 didn't go so well and he's been not getting playing time since. I like the dice roll on this. Power, Speed, Defense. He will cost the minimum. He just has to find that light switch again and start hitting the ball and maybe that comes with opportunity that the Twins will hopefully provide.

I agree that all expiring contracts should be sold and those who are not due to diminshed value or interest should be cut to clear space. And I agree that the Twins do not have to move anybody who is under team control. To be or not to be in regards to Duran, Jax, Stewart or Ryan was and is a legitimate consideration in these debates. And I agree that you don't have to like the deal based on whatever path you took to get you to that opinion. I assume you came by that opinion honestly much like the front office did. I'm just saying that this is what selling looks like. You can say sell and many including I will agree with you but this is what it looks like. The Degree, size and scope of the sale is undetermined and debatable, the prices paid for each sale is undetermined and debatable before the sell mode conclusion is drawn by any of us. When you ask for rain, you might get too little, the right amount or the valley is flooded and you are sopping up the basement. Or no rain at all and only cacti growing in your Tucson back yard. I'm comfortable in my neutral-ness while I wait the future results of development necessary to make these deals definitely good or bad.

Yeah... but you have to consider the possibility that the Padres didn't offer DeVries to the Twins for Duran. You have to consider the possibility that the Padres liked Sears and we didn't have a Sears equivalent. This is what selling looks like. You make your phone calls, you answer the phone calls and you choose the best deal offered. Trades always take two to tango... it's not like walking into the supermarket aisle and grabbing a can of soup. The owner of the soup and you will have to negotiate the price.

It depends on the source. Some will say 7th ranked while another says 21st. Highly Ranked... Low Ranked. Doesn't matter to me. Sufficient numbers are not getting through in comparison to their peers and I'm not ready to declare Jenkins developed and contributing until he is developed and contributing and Jenkins will not be enough. I have no opinion on the loadedness of our players currently in the farm system. I have an opinion on what the farm system has produced overall over the past 8 years of time. I agree that we have had some pitching development success. We have finally stopped patching holes with the Bundy types. I believe that the offensive side of the development ledger has been woeful. I don't know why but it has been.

I read the rankings, I read the reports... Their interesting and they can give you hope for the future if you believe them to be accurate. They may be accurate... they may not be... they may be somewhere in between but those rankings don't mean a thing, if the these top ten ranked farm systems are not graduating sufficient numbers to keep the budget flexible. I've read the rankings, the reports, we've had a top ten farm system for many years now and we stand here today with the minimum amount of product from that farm in 2025. I don't why... we have low numbers... but we have low numbers and whatever the reason... it isn't good. Front office supported by ownership? Maybe... I'm sure there are times when the wallet didn't open but this didn't sneak up on them. It may have been made worse by the RSN debacle but if the front office expected the budget to be able to forgo development... I don't know how to respond to that. I've been a Twins fan since the Hoover administration... Money is something that has never been available to the front offices of my team and I've stopped screaming about it and I'm pretty sure that money won't be available after the team is sold to the new owner because our revenue is going to remain in the same group of teams who have budgets similiar to what we operate under. The Twins can't staff to compete like the Phillies do but they basically have taken the same vet approach to field a competitive team. They don't have the Phillies money... they have Brewers money. Actually more money than the Brewers have. The Twins have the potential to be the Brewers with more money than they do. Development was always the key and development got lost along the way. I think you are right... it's the constant going for it. You can tell me about the loaded system that we have waiting in the wings. I sure hope you are right but I see no evidence of our past loaded systems production on July 31, 2025. I don't disagree that rebuild may be the best answer... but I'm very hesitant to trust this front office with the rebuild because rebuilding requires development and at the very least... thus far... this front office has chosen to limit the numbers of farm raised talent. I've often said that I will judge this front office on development. I may not be ready to judge this trade but I am ready to judge the development. It hasn't been good.

It's rarely fair. Probably only fair if they fire it off first because they were not being fair. We get where we are in our opinions from different paths. You can disagree and make your case without it. Without disagreement there isn't much to discuss. I just shut down the conversation when I get hit with it or sentiment of the like. In this case... I'll assume that "Never" was a bit augmented because the front office has obviously made moves to improve the team in their 8 years and also made moves that didn't work like the other 29 organizations. No matter how we feel at the moment in the midst of this selling... the club has been competitive. Just not to the degree of the liking of some. In regards to the trade. This is what selling looks like. There are some smart posters that I respect on this website who were typing Sell Sell Sell and now they don't like the sale. Well... This is what selling looks like. You can't ask for rain and then not like the rain when it comes. I have no opinion on Abel or Tait or the young catcher from the Tigers. I'm not going to judge the deal today. and I'm not going to judge any deals to come today. I have my issues with this front office but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they made their phone calls and didn't take a lesser deal on purpose. I'm going to assume that they believe that this was the best offer they could get and they took it. Judgement is for tomorrow because this trade will be won or lost based on how this organization develops the players acquired. I've never seen this Tait kid and I'm certainly not going to trust the opinion of some guy writing an opinion and then pass that opinion off as my own. I'm certainly not going to look at numbers produced as a 19 year old and think that he is frozen in time and this is what he will be as a 24 year old. All organizations have coaching who have jobs to improve players that make them major league ready. If the kid doesn't develop... they lost the trade. This is yet to be determined. Therefore, I don't understand the preemptive anger before the results are tallied. I did see Abel pitch in the majors for an inning or two and he looked real good. I certainly am not going to form an opinion on Abel based on those two innings. I'm just going to say that this is what selling looks like and I appreciate your efforts to represent the other side against an overwhelming opposition wind. In regards to the 2021 draft. We do have 2021 draftee Ohl (Future MLB Production and Value yet to be determined) and we have Festa who looks pretty good to me and someone I would place a bet on. DeBarge on the other hand was the 33rd overall pick in the 2024 draft... His future MLB Production and Value yet to be determined). We agree and disagree at the same time when you state your personal issue. The Twins have been trying to put a decent product on the field, trying to win today. I agree and I do believe that that mindset has been a major factor that has led to the selling. Where we disagree is... I don't believe that it is necessary to do a "Proper Tank" to remain competitive. Your farm just has to produce and keep producing and that's where the Twins have fell short. The going for it every year is probably a big reason why. The Red Sox traded Devers and went on a winning streak. They have a lineup of 6 pre-arb players in their starting lineup. The Tigers are loaded with 18 pre-arb players... the Brewers have 18 pre-arb players. Cleveland is constantly loaded up with pre-arb players year after year. The Rays. None of them have done a proper tank they just keep producing and they keep bringing in more in trades just like the Duran trade that has everybody all worked up. None of this is shocking to me... I've been saying for quite some time now that a bill was going to come due for the constant parade of cheap one year vets and what is a lack of trust in their own farm system. The proper tank that you speak of becomes necessary when a club has no other place to turn and I think the front office has painted themselves into a corner in that regard. They don't have the youth (That they routinely show trust in) to fill the spaces and they don't have the money to bring in players developed by other organizations. This is what it looks like when you hit that wall. They got to go to ownership and tell them that we need more money to keep doing what we have been doing and I don't have the impression that conversation will go well. We have never had a big boy budget. So... you become a crash dummy into that wall. On expiring contracts alone... we will have 7 roster spots to fill next year and Arb raises will eat up the majority of that available off-season money from the expiring contracts. Nobody should have the expectation that we are going to have approval for a massive budget increase (Even with new Owners). It makes it kind of obvious that the team is going to have move some higher dollar players either now or in the off season just to staff the club in 2026. If it's not Duran now... It's Ryan now or Duran, Ryan or Lopez in the off-season because they need more money just to fill the spaces to remain competitive. The raise that Duran was going to get in Arb was probably a big one so by removing that Arb Raise and getting young prospects back... they have a little more money to fill the open spaces... still not enough while they go from 7 to 8 roster spots to fill with the loss of Duran. We will probably see additional trades or even cuts rather than pay the Arb raise in the off-season to free up more money for 2026. None of this is shocking to me. This bill was always coming due... it was just a matter of time in how long the front office could McGyver things together with the Ty France types but this bill was unavoidable at some point in time.

I read the title of this thread and thought to myself. Is it possible the Phillies were using Jax as leverage in the Duran deal. "Listen, the price is too high for Duran... there are other relief pitchers that I can get. I can always call the Twins and get something done for Jax instead".

I'm not sure. Someone will be given the role and a new closer will enter the world, fantasy leagues will scramble to pick up the new guy in an attempt cheaply acquire saves. His agent will be excited about the sudden increase in value because graduating from holds to saves drives up value and leads to more money down the road. Someone will fill the role.

I'll give you credit for standing up against a stiff wind tonight. I think you've been good balance in an unbalanced world in front of pitchforks but when you get belligerent and start calling people ignorant... you lose me. The entire top of the 2021 draft is elsewhere. Petty, Miller, Hajjar, Povich, CES are not in Minnesota and neither are any of the acquisitions in their deals. Gray, Margot, Mahle and Jorge Lopez. And technically you are therefore listing Gray twice in your list of 4 examples of front office effort. Since Gray is part of that 2021 crew. You are correct though... these moves feel like ages go because they were in a baseball sense of time. The bill for them is unfortunately being paid right now. I think you are also correct when you say the frustration is more than the specifics of this trade.

Creativity - Diversification. I love out of the box thinking.

From an in game entertainment standpoint. We lost a lot. The Duran entrance was perhaps... the only moment of produced game experience dramatics to bring some energy into the place. With that gone... the produced entertainment trying to create energy will all fall on TC Bear. That's a lot of pressure for any Bear to bear. I always bet on Louie the Loon. But, I can't say I rise to my feet as the racers hit the home stretch.

He was. And who else? Jeffers will be Arb 3 next season... Did we not have enough time to produce more catching?

Something... Anything other than what has been developing our catchers to this point. I'm ready to turn catcher development over to AI.