Brock Beauchamp

The powder blues, for sure.

I happened to already know he wasn't good in his first stint so it was just a matter of grabbing his stat line real fast.

And even Mike Trout wasn't great in his first call-up. Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards 2011 19 LAA AL 40 135 123 20 27 6 0 5 16 4 0 9 30 .220 .281 .390 .672 89 48 2 2 0 1 0 897/HD

It was such a terrible trade. By the time 2018 rolled around, Archer was several years removed from his last well above average season, yet the Pirates paid as if he was still a very good #2 starter.

By this definition, Johan was not an ace, either. Postseason Pitching Year Age Tm Lg Series Rslt Opp W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF WHIP H9 HR9 BB9 SO9 SO/W WPA cWPA 2002 23 MIN AL ALDS W OAK 0 0 6.00 2 0 0 0 0 0 3.0 3 2 2 0 2 0 2 0 0 0 14 1.667 9.0 0.0 6.0 6.0 1.00 0.03 0.0% 2002 23 MIN AL ALCS L ANA 0 1 .000 10.80 4 0 0 0 0 0 3.1 4 4 4 1 0 0 4 0 0 2 14 1.200 10.8 2.7 0.0 10.8 -0.30 -3.9% 2003 24 MIN AL ALDS L NYY 0 1 .000 7.04 2 2 0 0 0 0 7.2 9 6 6 0 3 1 6 0 0 0 34 1.565 10.6 0.0 3.5 7.0 2.00 0.02 -0.7% 2004 25 MIN AL ALDS L NYY 1 0 1.000 0.75 2 2 0 0 0 0 12.0 14 1 1 0 4 0 12 1 0 0 51 1.500 10.5 0.0 3.0 9.0 3.00 0.67 6.7% 2006 27 MIN AL ALDS L OAK 0 1 .000 2.25 1 1 0 0 0 0 8.0 5 2 2 1 1 0 8 0 0 0 30 0.750 5.6 1.1 1.1 9.0 8.00 0.16 1.6% 4 Yrs (5 Series) 1 3 .250 3.97 11 5 0 0 0 0 34.0 35 15 15 2 10 1 32 1 0 2 143 1.324 9.3 0.5 2.6 8.5 3.20 0.58 3.6% 4 ALDS 1 2 .333 3.23 7 5 0 0 0 0 30.2 31 11 11 1 10 1 28 1 0 0 129 1.337 9.1 0.3 2.9 8.2 2.80 0.88 7.5% 1 ALCS 0 1 .000 10.80 4 0 0 0 0 0 3.1 4 4 4 1 0 0 4 0 0 2 14 1.200 10.8 2.7 0.0 10.8 -0.30 -3.9% Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 9/20/2021.

God, I hope so. A more contact-based, scrappy baseball is a more entertaining baseball.

See my above post. There's definitely a difference in ump-called and rule-based strike zones. The automated strike zones are based on the rules, which may need to be changed.

I've read and seen some pretty convincing evidence that the umpire-called strike zone and the rule-based strike zone are quite different. But that's a different conversation, as this is about a pitch clock. Personally, I think both are warranted but I'll take the pitch clock first and foremost.

As I've mentioned multiple times, "ace" is entirely subjective and we all define it our own ways. As you later pointed out, sign the man if possible is your stance and I can't disagree with that.

Berrios was bad in 2017, as was "veteran" Santana, but Berrios was quite good afterward. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'd pay Berrios because he's the type of guy who is most likely to give you 33 starts of way above average ball in the regular season and that helps you get to the postseason.... But in the postseason, I'd consider him a good #2 starter because his upside isn't great against other postseason teams. His value comes from his consistency. The other side of that coin is that I'll take Berrios being a rotation stalwart to get me to the postseason versus the insignificant disadvantage he has on a per-game basis to face another excellent pitcher in the postseason. Because, in a single game, a pitcher that gives you a 68% chance to win versus a pitcher that gives you a 56% chance to win simply doesn't matter. Getting there is the important thing because wild variance of chance rules the day in the postseason. And that's not even factoring in that Berrios' health makes him more likely to actually start a postseason game in the first place, which makes his "above average" ball even more valuable.

I'd show no hesitation to give Berrios money but it wouldn't be for "ace" performance. It'd be for "very good" performance and rock-solid health. But if Berrios will return to Minnesota for five years, $125m, I'd do that without thinking hard about it. I'd count on him being a very good pitcher who wins the team a lot of games over 162 but maybe doesn't have the peak performance of an equivalent pitcher with more health concerns.

While I agree that I want them to either sign or target a very good pitcher in trade, we shouldn't just write off a "reclamation" project. This front office traded for Odorizzi and Maeda, both of which provided outstanding results. They weren't only good, they were some of the best pitchers in baseball (Odorizzi 2019, Maeda 2020). If this front office targets an under-appreciated pitcher in trade again, I'm all on board for it. Bonus points that they traded with what I view as the two smartest organizations in all of baseball to acquire those two pitchers. While the jury is still out on the Dodgers trade, the Twins absolutely torched Tampa in the Odorizzi trade.

To put this in a different context... From 1996-2001, Brad Radke posted a 118 ERA+. From 2017-2021, Jose Berrios posted a 118 ERA+. (the symmetry here is unexpected but I thought it'd be close, which is why I looked it up in the first place) Do we remember Radke as an ace for a postseason team? Probably not, which is why I view Berríos as the type of guy you love to be starting the second game of a series in October but not fronting the rotation.

Marvel is killing it on D+ and this looks to be more of the same. I'm here for it. Also, it looks to be heavily influenced by Matt Fraction's run on Hawkeye from 6-8 years ago, which is the perfect version of Hawkeye, IMO.

Oh, he is vitally important to winning. The Twins' chances for 2022 took a nosedive the moment Jose left for Toronto. I still think it was a pretty good deal for the Twins (and hopefully the Jays, too) but the reality is that it did serious damage to their ability to compete next season.

I didn't want to lose this conversation when the game thread is moved to the archive forum so please continue here.

I'm actually quite high on Berrios. I don't view fWAR as a particularly good metric for this conversation, as Berrios is eminently healthy and WAR is something of a counting stat. Don't get me wrong, I love fWAR for a variety of things, but it doesn't really factor into my evaluation of an "ace". But Berrios typically lands in the 120-130 range of ERA+ (career high of 133 this season). While 133 starts to enter my own personal territory of "ace", in my eyes a real ace does that year-over-year. Maybe Berrios ends up there someday and that'd be great. But the way I view him is a #1 pitcher on a mediocre team but preferably a #2 pitcher on a legitimately good postseason team. Again, this is a conversation about aces so YMMV.

Mentally, I think there are 15-ish “aces” and maybe 20-25 “#1 pitchers”. Berrios doesn’t make the first group but probably makes the second. But frankly, I find the “ace” conversation boring. Everyone has their own definition and none of them are really wrong.

I highly doubt it. Listen, I think Manfred is as big of a putz as anyone else around here but he's not out to kill the sport intentionally. He implemented the three batter rule which actually reduced the number of commercials per game. I'm lukewarm on the three batter rule as a whole but if anything, it slightly diminished advertising revenue for the sport.

Canadians? Is this a trick question? Seriously, though, I'm not sure what bearing that has on the discussion. I'm using numbers to show that Berrios is being handled pretty much the same in Toronto as he was in Minnesota. Who won the game doesn't really matter in the context of the conversation we're having.

Agreed, though he does seem to be doing less of that this season (finally).

Sure, but I think we agree that Berrios' IP per start is largely dependent on the efficiency of Berrios, not the tendencies of the manager. In 20 starts with the Twins, Baldelli let him go over 100 pitches eight times (and to 99 pitches three other times). That includes being very cautious with him for the entire month of April, which is to be expected after 2020. In ten starts with Toronto, Berrios has gone over 100 pitches just twice (and hit exactly 100 today). There's no significant difference in how he's being handled.

I didn't see that but Berrios averaged just over six innings per start with the Twins this season. To bring home the point again about how peoples' complaints about Baldelli aren't really based in reality, Berrios has averaged under six innings per start since being traded to Toronto.

Berrios actually averaged a healthy number of innings per start under Baldelli. He was 15th in IP in 2019 and 35th in IP in the weird 2020 season. The "Baldelli has a quick hook" crowd's complaints aren't really based in reality. The Twins are mid-pack in starter innings pretty much every season.