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    Are The Twins Buyers Or Sellers?


    Brandon Warne

    The hottest talk on Twins fans’ lips after the promotions of Byron Buxton and Miguel Sano has been whether or not this is a team that should buy or sell at the trade deadline that looms in a mere three and a half weeks. It’s a legitimate question with no easy answer, as the Twins have hung around in a heavily competitive division.

    Image courtesy of Brad Rempel- USA TODAY Sports

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    And if you buy into the idea that the Tigers could fall back a bit with the loss of Miguel Cabrera, and that the White Sox and Indians have yet to play their best ball of the season — all distinct possibilities — the Central could get even wilder before the season draws to a close.

    The entire American League is bonkers. Coming into play Monday, the Twins are tied with Baltimore — incidentally, the club’s current opponent — for the fifth and final playoff spot. If that wasn’t enough, 13 of the 15 AL clubs are five or fewer games out of a playoff spot. No AL team is more than 6.5 games out. This hurts buying teams two-fold.

    First of all, any team that is ‘buying’ so to speak needs a seller. The two teams in the AL that are more than five games out of a playoff spot are Chicago — coming off a spending spree in the offseason — and Oakland, whom Fangraphs’ BaseRuns (best explained here) suggests are playing so far below their ceiling that they should be neck and neck with division-leading Houston. Dealing with Billy Beane in July can be a risky proposition for opposing teams, too. The Twins have done it before — Orlando Cabrera in 2009 — but it takes a certain need for each side to find a match.

    The NL side is a little different, with just nine of 15 teams within five games of a playoff spot, and four teams — Milwaukee, Colorado, Miami and Philadelphia — at least 10 games back. Each of those teams have premium talent that could be pried away, with the possible exception of Miami, but that also requires a steep price in terms of prospects — of which the Twins have.

    But the other complicating factor with a team being in the thick of it in a heavily competitive AL race is that even the slightest hiccup can leave you in the dust with a veritable dogpile of teams each gaining ground on someone each night. With that many teams involved, at least a few of them each will win on a given night, making any sort of a slide potentially catastrophic in even the short term.

    And when you look at this Twins roster, it doesn’t appear to be built terribly well for a playoff run. The same BaseRuns concept that suggests the A’s should be a potential playoff team pegs the Twins as having played like a 35-47 team as opposed to their 43-39 mark. Personally, that doesn’t appear too surprising when considering how leaky the team has been in certain facets of the game at times. The bullpen has the ninth-worst ERA in baseball at 3.88. As a group, they’ve fanned just 6.0 batters per nine — dead last across MLB — and are one of just two teams that are under 7.0 in that respect. The vastly improved rotation is in the top half in ERA, but ranks second to last in K/9 and is only about average in terms of groundball rate.

    On the offensive side, it’s been about Brian Dozier and a rotating cast of characters that have picked up the slack at one time or another. Dozier is the clear leader on the team with a 128 OPS+ — OPS scaled to where 100 is average — with Joe Mauer, Torii Hunter and Trevor Plouffe the only other regulars above average — and just by a few ticks. Nothing about the Twins offense — with the exception of doubles, triples and strikeouts — are among the top half of AL teams.

    So you don’t have an offense, starting staff or bullpen that really sticks out. Balanced teams can make the playoffs, too, but it most likely would require some sort of ‘boost.’

    But where would that boost come from, and where would it go? The Twins don’t really profile as a team that needs help in the outfield. Granted, there’s still no telling what exactly the team can or will get from Buxton or Aaron Hicks, but this isn’t a club in a position to shove one of those two aside for a Marlon Byrd, to throw out a random name who will be available. That’s before also considering Oswaldo Arcia — on a seven-game hitting streak at Rochester where he’s hitting .448/.484/.828 — will also probably rejoin the team at some point, too. Is a run this year so important that you can shove aside players who’ll soon be out of options to take that chance? It hardly seems possible.

    The rotation already has a bottleneck with Trevor May squeezed out with Ervin Santana’s return, so there isn’t really a good fit there. Similarly, trading legitimate prospects for bullpen help hasn’t exactly worked out well for this club (or any other) in years past either (Matt Capps for Wilson Ramos, etc.).

    In the infield it would seem only shortstop is open. Jorge Polanco had a really rough first game at Rochester on Saturday, but club sources suggested he was markedly better after some early work on Sunday — his 22nd birthday. If he, Danny Santana or Eduardo Escobar aren’t the future of the position, then a look outside could be merited. That just doesn’t feel like a Twins move either, though. The same can be said for catcher, where Kurt Suzuki has been underwhelming in pretty much every facet of the game. He’s only signed for one more year, so even a starting catcher’s salary could be moved aside if the Twins were to inquire on someone like Jonathan Lucroy. Still again, that’s a splashy move that doesn’t seem to fit the Twins’ usual blueprint, and can also be costly another way.

    And that way is in terms of trade cost. The Twins could move the likes of Polanco, Jose Berrios, Kohl Stewart, Max Kepler and others. Trading prospects makes sense in a lot of ways, considering the attrition rate of the average prospect versus their trade market value, but at the same time the Twins need to rely on the graduation of some of these prospects emerging to help sustain an extended window as the Buxtons and Sanos mature, and need reinforcements to go alongside them.

    So does trading from your depth in the minor leagues actually narrow your contention window? Maybe not, considering the team will have Sano and Buxton ostensibly for at least six years — all of which should be pretty good years for the club, barring some sort of disaster — but it’s worth wondering if making a run at the beginning of their careers — and the end of Mauer’s for instance — is worth pushing all the chips in the middle for. And is that season now? Is the division and league as vulnerable as it’ll get in the short- or long-term? Maybe that is the case, considering there’s no dominating team right now. The Red Sox and Yankees are a bit more down than they’ve been in recent years, and some of the teams who were supposed to take giant steps forward — the Clevelands and Seattles of the world — have failed to step up.

    There’s no easy answer for how the Twins should approach this deadline, but there’s also a fairly good chance that in the next 25 or so days, the team will provide its own answer. If they’re in the thick of it in that last week in July, it’s going to be an interesting deadline for the first time in a long time.

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    I'd like to get a leadoff hitter.  Someone like we had in the early 2000's in Shannon Stewart.  I would really like to get someone who can bunt to get on base or move people over.  Also a quality reliever.  Unless we have both of these in the organization somewhere.

     

    I'd like to get a leadoff hitter.  Someone like we had in the early 2000's in Shannon Stewart.  I would really like to get someone who can bunt to get on base or move people over.  Also a quality reliever.  Unless we have both of these in the organization somewhere.

     

    With Sano in the middle the lineup would balance out tremendously with a leadoff guy that could force Dozier into the middle of the order.

     

    But that's also likely where we want Buxton.

     

    I've been told the playoffs are a crapshoot.  Get there.

     

    To start with, catcher is a need, and will almost surely be a need in the future.  Why wait?  They need better arms in the bullpen.  Why wait?  I actually like Santana's future, but I wouldn't object to a surer thing at SS, and going forward they need better play from SS.  That might be worth a gamble.

     

    A starter like Hamels wouldn't be just for 2015.  Lucroy would help now and the near term future, possibly more with an extension.  

     

    Fortune favors the bold.  Sitting around waiting for the future doesn't appeal to me, and I don't think it's the smart way to play the MLB game.  YMMV, or course.

    I would like to get Hamels and Lucroy but definitely not at the price of Sano or Buxton.  this is where the struggles of Stewart, Meyer and Gordon and the injury to Thorpe (probably others) have hurt the team.  They basically have Sano and Buxton that everyone is going to ask for, Berrios in the next tier (getting top 10 overall rankings at midseason), Polanco and guys that are probably falling out of the top 100. 

     

    I don't think the Twins have enough to get Hamels w/o including Sano or Buxton.  I think the Twins would need to include everyone interesting (not named Sano or Buxton) to get Lucroy.  Are those the prices that you are willing to pay?  I think it would be awesome to get Hamels, Lucroy and Tulo but I am not mortgaging the farm system to do it. Especially with a team that according to metrics might not even make the playoffs with the addition of a top player. 

     

    The problem is that there aren't many players in the in between category available (very few sellers).

     

    I've been told the playoffs are a crapshoot.  Get there.

     

    To start with, catcher is a need, and will almost surely be a need in the future.  Why wait?  They need better arms in the bullpen.  Why wait?  I actually like Santana's future, but I wouldn't object to a surer thing at SS, and going forward they need better play from SS.  That might be worth a gamble.

     

    A starter like Hamels wouldn't be just for 2015.  Lucroy would help now and the near term future, possibly more with an extension.  

     

    Fortune favors the bold.  Sitting around waiting for the future doesn't appeal to me, and I don't think it's the smart way to play the MLB game.  YMMV, or course.

     

    Well...  I have been really vocal about the Twins trading Santana High during last off-season because we had seen his peak...   Not much value now.  The Twins can upgrade at SS by calling up Polanco. 

     

    As far as C goes, they do need a starter this season and there is not much depth in the organization.  They also need arms.  I like that "fortune favors the bold".  I think that Ryan should grab the phone and call the Mets for a trade that will bring Travis d'Arnaud and Jeurys Familia to the Twins and Byron Buxton to the Mets.  Might take a player or 2 either way, but I think that the Twins will be better off in the short and long run this way...

    I'm willing to part with good prospects to bring back a young, cost controlled catcher.  Perhaps a bullpen rental arm for cheap but that's it.

     

    We can patch SS together with Escobar and I still believe Santana will improve enough on both sides of the ball to be a starter at short for the near future, just starting next year.

     

    I would part with Polanco in a trade.  He's eventually going to be a second baseman and I like the one we have better.  Plus, he's got to stop playing the anvil chorus or he's going nowhere - CLANG!

     

    Pretty sure Oakland would not trade a catcher currently sporting a 145 OPS+ and controlled for the next 4.5 seasons without asking for an elite prospect (i.e. Berrios or Sano) in return.

    A catcher who's also 30 years old and cooled off tremendously in June. These are also the same Athletics who traded Josh Donaldson for basically Marcus Semien. I think Max Kepler and some other near-MLB ready talent could get the job done. But Sano or Berrios? Preposterous.

    A catcher who's also 30 years old and cooled off tremendously in June. These are also the same Athletics who traded Josh Donaldson for basically Marcus Semien. I think Max Kepler and some other near-MLB ready talent could get the job done. But Sano or Berrios? Preposterous.

    Wrong trade. Donaldson fetched his replacement at 3B in Lawrie, plus prospects. Still probably not a good trade, but also not one the Twins could replicate for a catcher.

     

    Off the top of my head, Oakland does not have a history of trading for B prospects without MLB experience as the centerpiece of a trade.

    Even thought I am a proponent of win now, how about this scenario.

     

    If Sano continues to show he belongs in the bigs, and if he gets a few more starts at third and shows he can be competent in the field.......

     

    You trade Plouffe and Pelfrey for the best young catcher you can fetch?

     

    If need be, you could include Polanco to really get a good catcher (I believe he is a second baseman and we have one of the best).

     

    You would wait until the deadline so you have the most data possible on Sano and to have a few more sellers enter the market.

     

    I think that the addition of a better catcher could offset the loss of Plouffe's bat, leaving us no worse off this year and better positioned for the future.

    Edited by Linus

     

    Even thought I am a proponent of win now, how about this scenario.

     

    If Sano continues to show he belongs in the bigs, and if he gets a few more starts at third and shows he can be competent in the field.......

     

    You trade Plouffe and Pelfrey for the best young catcher you can fetch?

     

    If need be, you could include Polanco to really get a good catcher (I believe he is a second baseman and we have one of the best).

     

    You would wait until the deadline so you have the most data possible on Sano and to have a few more sellers enter the market.

    If Plouffe is going to be traded, it's probably going to be in the offseason.

     

    1. Long-term assets are easier to trade during the offseason. Instead of picking from 1-2 teams that might have a need and are a contender, you have a pool of 5-6 teams who believe they can be contenders going into the season and they're more likely to have the assets you want and need to make the trade happen. At that point, it's easier to generate a seller's market and leverage offers against one another.

     

    2. It'd be a huge gamble to dish off Plouffe during the season when the Twins are in contention. It could easily turn into a 2014 Athletics type of fiasco.

    Considering the twins just need bullpen help assuming sano continues to fill the dh spot you would have to think low level prospects or maybe pinto could do the trick. I wouldn't consider buying a game 1 starter unless the wild card lead grew to at least 4 games but as much as the future should bring great things we have a great shot to make some noise this year.

     

    If Plouffe is going to be traded, it's probably going to be in the offseason.

     

    1. Long-term assets are easier to trade during the offseason. Instead of picking from 1-2 teams that might have a need and are a contender, you have a pool of 5-6 teams who believe they can be contenders going into the season and they're more likely to have the assets you want and need to make the trade happen. At that point, it's easier to generate a seller's market and leverage offers against one another.

     

    2. It'd be a huge gamble to dish off Plouffe during the season when the Twins are in contention. It could easily turn into a 2014 Athletics type of fiasco.

     

    yeah, last time they did something like that, they shipped off a kid named Lawton for if I remember right, Rick Reed.  That killed the offense.  I suspect Plouffe is an offseason deal, and I have no problems targeting a young ML ready catcher for him, as I think he's good enough to net it. 

     

    I suspect Plouffe is an offseason deal, and I have no problems targeting a young ML ready catcher for him, as I think he's good enough to net it. 

    I think so as well, though you may need to throw in a B or C prospect depending on the catcher's age and market scarcity.

     

    Plouffe is lining up to be an 8 WAR player over the past two seasons and he has two more seasons of team control. That's a really valuable asset to a team that believes it's a contender in the short-term.

    I say we roll with Suzuki and Fryer for the rest of this year, and Pinto can gather himself in AAA, great, then that gives us 3 catchers. I personally think that adding a SS and an 8th inning guy who can strike batters out is more important.

    SS Targets:

    Tulo - we'd have to probably part with Buxton, Sano, or Berrios plus 2-3 other players, not sure i'm ready to sell the house yet, but Tulo would look great on our squad!!!! I feel like a Gonsalves or Hu, Polanco, Walker, and something top 30 prospect player.

    Castro - He's a buy low guy right now i think, not sure he's much better then Escobar currently

    Jed Lawrie - He'll be returning from injury in the next 2-3 weeks i think, and we could buy him low

    Just a few ideas...........

    assuming we trade for Tulo here's our 2016 Lineup:

    1. Buxton - CF
    2. Dozier - 2b
    3. Tulowitzki - SS
    4. Sano - DH/3b
    5. Mauer - 1b/DH

    6. Plouffe - 3b/1b
    7. Rosario - LF
    8. Hicks/Arcia - RF

    9. Suzuki/Fryer/Pinto - C

    I'm drooling right now..........

     

    If Plouffe is going to be traded, it's probably going to be in the offseason.

     

    1. Long-term assets are easier to trade during the offseason. Instead of picking from 1-2 teams that might have a need and are a contender, you have a pool of 5-6 teams who believe they can be contenders going into the season and they're more likely to have the assets you want and need to make the trade happen. At that point, it's easier to generate a seller's market and leverage offers against one another.

     

    2. It'd be a huge gamble to dish off Plouffe during the season when the Twins are in contention. It could easily turn into a 2014 Athletics type of fiasco.

    Actually the seller's market is the opposite of what you say.  In the offseason teams will turn to FA to fill holes instead of overpay in a trade.  They will also turn to an unproven prospect and there is hope.  At midseason there will be desperation (and injuries) and no FA's to turn to and that unproven prospect might have fallen on his face.  In addition to that the new Wild Card rules have added so many teams to the buyer's side of the equation that there are very few seller's.

     

    But I don't trade Plouffe right now.  It is not as simple as trading an MLB veteran 3B for a MLB ready or veteran C.  It is REALLY hard to match up teams with those kinds of constraints.  The Twins also lack bats right now.  I am not subtracting Plouffe from that lineup.

     

    Actually the seller's market is the opposite of what you say.  In the offseason teams will turn to FA to fill holes instead of overpay in a trade.  They will also turn to an unproven prospect and there is hope.  At midseason there will be desperation (and injuries) and no FA's to turn to and that unproven prospect might have fallen on his face.  In addition to that the new Wild Card rules have added so many teams to the buyer's side of the equation that there are very few seller's.

     

    But I don't trade Plouffe right now.  It is not as simple as trading an MLB veteran 3B for a MLB ready or veteran C.  It is REALLY hard to match up teams with those kinds of constraints.  The Twins also lack bats right now.  I am not subtracting Plouffe from that lineup.

     

    I don't disagree with you because I think the desparation is the big thing.  But one advantage of the off-season is that theoretically you have all teams interested in a guy versus just the teams that feel they are in contention AND have a whole at 3B.

     

     

     

    You trade Plouffe and Pelfrey for the best young catcher you can fetch?

     

    If need be, you could include Polanco to really get a good catcher (I believe he is a second baseman and we have one of the best).

    Good theory, but Pelf's value is pretty limited right now -- he's basically an extra reinforcement SP, if you don't already have one like Milone stashed at AAA or May in the bullpen.  He should fetch you *something*, but he's probably not going to contribute much to a deal for immediate help of your choosing.

     

    And any team trading good value for Plouffe right now has an immediate need at a specific position.  What is the likelihood that among that subset of teams, there is also a further subset of teams with a good young catcher to spare?  We've discussed the Giants but their infield at the moment is pretty solid, we've discussed the Mets but their starting catcher is actually injured right now, and they may not think they need a 3B for multiple seasons with Wright still under contract.  They could just as easily give up a low-level prospect to rent Aramis Ramirez for the rest of 2015.

     

    Not sure if any other trade partners would meet this narrow criteria either.

     

    I think so as well, though you may need to throw in a B or C prospect depending on the catcher's age and market scarcity.

     

    Plouffe is lining up to be an 8 WAR player over the past two seasons and he has two more seasons of team control. That's a really valuable asset to a team that believes it's a contender in the short-term.

    Reminds me of a time the Twins had another 4 WAR player they decided to trade...his name was Denard Span and that deal has killed the Twins thus far.

     

    I wouldn't be in a rush to trade a valuable player like Plouffe unless you get something truly special and can't miss in return. 3 WAR a year catcher would make sense.

     

    Reminds me of a time the Twins had another 4 WAR player they decided to trade...his name was Denard Span and that deal has killed the Twins thus far.

     

    I wouldn't be in a rush to trade a valuable player like Plouffe unless you get something truly special and can't miss in return. 3 WAR a year catcher would make sense.

    Well, the situations are pretty different. The Twins probably won't get a high upside risk like Meyer for Plouffe. I think they'll be targeting something more in the league average range with a high floor, which is fine with me.

     

    I'm not in a hurry to trade Plouffe by any means but turning him into a decent catcher makes a lot of sense if it can be done.

     

    Well...  I have been really vocal about the Twins trading Santana High during last off-season because we had seen his peak...   Not much value now.  The Twins can upgrade at SS by calling up Polanco. 

     

    As far as C goes, they do need a starter this season and there is not much depth in the organization.  They also need arms.  I like that "fortune favors the bold".  I think that Ryan should grab the phone and call the Mets for a trade that will bring Travis d'Arnaud and Jeurys Familia to the Twins and Byron Buxton to the Mets.  Might take a player or 2 either way, but I think that the Twins will be better off in the short and long run this way...

     

    I like d'Arnaud as a player but he and Familia for Buxton? Serious?  I think that's a trade TR and Twins fan would end up regretting for decades.

     

    I like d'Arnaud as a player but he and Familia for Buxton? Serious?  I think that's a trade TR and Twins fan would end up regretting for decades.

     

    Or Buxton might get injured 50% of the time, and might be a trade that the Twins' fans would applaud...

    Right now Buxton is in the path of Rickey Weeks and Carlos Quentin who cannot play a full season without hurting themselves.  And I'd take a top young catcher over a top young centerfielder any time of the day...  Buxton's value is very high right now.

    Edited by Thrylos

    We have waited four years to see our prospects and this year we are starting to see why the wait was worth it.  Trade vets - Suzuki, Pelfrey, Millone, Mauer, Plouffe, but not the prospects.  Lets bring more up.  

     

    The bullpen is a mess, but can't we start rotating minor-leaguers in there?

     

    I agree with the writer who says we cannot compete with the St Louis level of team yet and that is where we want to get.  Going back to one and out should not be our playoff goal.

     

    We have waited four years to see our prospects and this year we are starting to see why the wait was worth it.  Trade vets - Suzuki, Pelfrey, Millone, Mauer, Plouffe, but not the prospects.  Lets bring more up.  

     

    The bullpen is a mess, but can't we start rotating minor-leaguers in there?

     

    I agree with the writer who says we cannot compete with the St Louis level of team yet and that is where we want to get.  Going back to one and out should not be our playoff goal.

    Contending for the WC is an awesome goal for a rebuilding team that has had 4 straight top 5 picks.  That means that they won 15-20 more games than the previous seasons and don't have very much further to go.  But they shouldn't be trading top level prospects to contend for the WC spot.  They need to build the team into a perennial playoff contender. 

     

    But other than Plouffe you named guys that have near zero trade value.  We don't need more prospects that probably don't rank in the Twins top 30.  not much of a reason to be sellers.  And trading Plouffe would be a mistake.  He is good and not that young.  Now if someone made an offer of Plouffe for a Jose Berrios level prospect (into the midseason top 10 overall) then I am interested.

     

    I think, like most teams, they are in a holding pattern right now........

     

    I'd not deal any of:

    Buxton

    Sano

    Berrios

    Plouffe*

    Dozier

    Gibson

     

    Everyone else, for the right price, I'd consider.

     

    *would require a huge overpay by the other side

     

    I like the asterisk by Plouffe.  You don't give a 3 WAR player away. 

     

    I may add Polanco to that list because I view him as the answer at SS for the next 2-3 years and superior to Santana.  That is notoriously a difficult position to find a guy in FA.

     

     




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