Grading Terry Ryan

[LaBombo]

Jackson is indeed (marginally) better than the pitchers the Twins signed. For that contract he better be.

He's a much better pitcher than Correia or Pelfrey. If you don't believe he's worth his contract or was a good fit for the Twins, that's fine, but you're grossly undervaluing his ability and therefore his worth relative to that contract.

[drjim]

If there's an accurate and meaningful gauge by which Jackson is only a marginally better than Correia or Pelfrey, then either we have vastly different standards for how large a marginal gap between pitchers is, or you are using a gauge I don't know about. Please elaborate.

 

Here are ip/era/xfip/fip for the three

 

110.2/4.23/4.70/4.22

93.1/5.50/3.88/3.81

76.2/5.63/4.19/4.88

 

This also doesn't take into account that an NL pitcher has a few advantages. I would say he is marginally better (at best) according to these stats.

[drjim]

So Nate Schierholtz, Scott Feldman, Kevin Gregg, Edwin Jackson, Carlos Villanueva = Pelfry, Correia, and Roenicke?

 

Please look at the numbers, because that is utterly ridiculous. You're really bending over backwards here to minimize the successes they've had.

 

I forgot about Villanueva to be honest, he has had a pretty solid year. I didn't include Schierholtz in my thinking because the Twins had no need for a corner OF last offseason.

[snepp]

Or maybe those don't quite readjust and normalize as expected because he is not as good as he once was. Or he gets hurt.

 

If he wasn't as good as he once was, he wouldn't have the solid underlying peripherals that he does.

[TheLeviathan]

I forgot about Villanueva to be honest, he has had a pretty solid year. I didn't include Schierholtz in my thinking because the Twins had no need for a corner OF last offseason.

 

Except that was never the point. The point was that the two clubs were in similar positions - young, rebuilding, spots open for guys to prove themselves, and cash to pay them to take a flyer.

 

The Cubs utilized their openings that weren't blocking young players and got not only good performances, but potential trade value. The Twins don't look to have gotten either with their investments. I don't know how you can say with a straight face that those two efforts are equal.

[drjim]

Except that was never the point. The point was that the two clubs were in similar positions - young, rebuilding, spots open for guys to prove themselves, and cash to pay them to take a flyer.

 

The Cubs utilized their openings that weren't blocking young players and got not only good performances, but potential trade value. The Twins don't look to have gotten either with their investments. I don't know how you can say with a straight face that those two efforts are equal.

 

So now you're telling me what my point was? I did a quick comparison and thought about the pitchers that were signed. That seemed most relevant when thinking about the moves of the Twins this past offseason and comparing them to moves made by a team in a similar situation.

 

The Cubs signed more guys so will probably get more total value on the field and in possible trades. Part of that reason is that the Twins had more young guys to plug into positions that the Cubs had to fill with veterans last offseason (ie corner OF). The Twins shouldn't be punished for that in a fair comparison.

 

In my opinion the one area to honestly criticize Terry Ryan last offseason was with the free agent starters that he signed. It seemed reasonable to compare his track record in that area to the team that many people thought is doing the best job in rebuilding at the moment.

 

I would also add that my preference was to sign McCarthy and Marcum. That would have been a worse result, with minimal innings and nothing in return via trade.

[TheLeviathan]

So now you're telling me what my point was?

 

No, I'm reminding you of the stance you're disagreeing with. To hopefully refocus you.

 

The Cubs signed more guys so will probably get more total value on the field and in possible trades.

 

Just their Kevin Gregg signing was better than all the Twins moves combined. I'd argue Feldman's quite excellent first half performance easily beats them all out combined as well. And we haven't even talked about Villanueva or the fact that all three of these guys were one year off-season deals.

 

The Cubs, ultimately, did a better job utilizing their money to not only bring in contributors but to get successful contributions out of them. Use WAR, use ERA, use whatever you want - I can't find a stat that doesn't show a significant disparity.

[Kwak]

The criticisms of the Royals and now the Cubs efforts to rebuild are irrelevant to this thread--if not just plain irrelevant. It is sanctimonious of people to claim the Twins are better than... especially in light of the team we see on the field. What we can reasonably conclude is that the chewing gum, duct tape, and bailing wire method employed has failed miserably. It is also reasonable to conclude that there is a wide chasm between the Twins minor league's competition and the level that the Twins face--especially when opposed by the stronger teams of MLB. The "new" Twins need to face these problems "head-on" and overcome them themselves at the MLB level. Apparently this process is slower than projected--with the proviso that some will fail their challenge. I hope for three things from the FO:

1) a change in the selection and development in minor leaguers such that they are selected and chosen to excel at the ML level and not simply progress through the system like pupils through the public school system; 2) accept the fact that a team's success is more controlled by it's best players and devote resources (money) to acquire top players and not those "that fit in"; and 3) to be forthright with the fans about the process and to be realistic where the team really is, in the rebuild.

[ashbury]

Folks, this thread has gone on far past the point of anything constructive going on, and I am closing it. The personal sniping and general lack of respect shown for each other, after John Bonnes stepped in to ask that it stop, resumed shortly thereafter and has not damped itself out on its own.