Game Thread: Twins (Ryan) v Giants (DeSclafani) @ 12:10 CT, 5/24/23

[Richie the Rally Goat]

5 hours ago, wsnydes said:

Dust off the chicken dinner gifs!

 

[tlkriens]

14 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

They don't play tomorrow. Why would they not get him a little work?

Maybe should have gotten him some work on Tuesday in the 6th or 7th when the game was on the line instead of in the 9th with a six run lead. Seems to be a better use of your best reliever. 

[wsnydes]

24 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

Maybe should have gotten him some work on Tuesday in the 6th or 7th when the game was on the line instead of in the 9th with a six run lead. Seems to be a better use of your best reliever. 

Sure, but what do you do in the 8th or 9th then?  If the bullpen blows the lead at that point, you're on Rocco for using his best reliever too early in the game.  You can't rely on just one bullpen arm all of the time.  Other pitchers have to step up.

 

[chpettit19]

56 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

Maybe should have gotten him some work on Tuesday in the 6th or 7th when the game was on the line instead of in the 9th with a six run lead. Seems to be a better use of your best reliever. 

As @wsnydes said, who's pitching the 8th and 9th on Tuesday then? I agree that Duran needs to get some more innings, and I prefer him as the fireman he was last year, but he's only 1 man. Unfortunately, Rocco can't predict the future. And I definitely don't want him to be planning for a lot of 6 run leads right now when his team struggles to score even 4 runs a lot of the time. When your offense can't score, and your pen is wobbling, you're going to get a lot of close games. Saving your closer for save situations is, to me, the smart move. I'd just prefer Lopez as the closer, and Duran as the fireman. But using Duran in the 6th or 7th Tuesday doesn't really solve the problem of other guys blowing leads.

[tlkriens]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Saving your closer for save situations is, to me, the smart move.

This is the mentality that I just hate. The save is the only stat I can think of where the manager or head coach dictates what move he's going to make based on a stat.

Who pitches the 8th or 9th? Take your pick. I'd much rather have Brock Stewart or Moran or your 4th/5th best RP pitch the 8th or 9th with a three run lead, rather than in the 6th inning with the bases loaded and no outs, up by three.

This idea of who pitches the 8th or 9th so we better save our best RP for that time make no sense to me. The 8th or 9th doesn't matter because the Giants got back in the game in the 6th and took the lead for good in the 7th and we all know Rocoo doesn't use his best relievers when trailing. Play for the situation at hand, not something that might happened in the 8th or 9th.

[chpettit19]

18 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

This is the mentality that I just hate. The save is the only stat I can think of where the manager or head coach dictates what move he's going to make based on a stat.

Who pitches the 8th or 9th? Take your pick. I'd much rather have Brock Stewart or Moran or your 4th/5th best RP pitch the 8th or 9th with a three run lead, rather than in the 6th inning with the bases loaded and no outs, up by three.

This idea of who pitches the 8th or 9th so we better save our best RP for that time make no sense to me. The 8th or 9th doesn't matter because the Giants got back in the game in the 6th and took the lead for good in the 7th and we all know Rocoo doesn't use his best relievers when trailing. Play for the situation at hand, not something that might happened in the 8th or 9th.

I didn't say "save your best RP," I said "save your closer." As I said, I would prefer Duran be their fireman. But that's not the role he's in this year. Debating that decision is a different topic, to me. We don't know the behind the scenes talks that lead them to deciding Duran is their closer instead of fireman so I won't speculate too much, but I believe in saving your closer for the 9th is a good strategy. But in order for it to work you need other guys to bridge things from the starter to them. They need more than just 1 big time reliever, though. That's the point. Every time somebody else blows a lead the answer can't be "should've just used Duran."

I also think "Play for the situation at hand, not something that might happened in the 8th or 9th" is oversimplifying things a bit. You can't completely ignore the future. In many ways. Not just in game, but game to game, week to week, month to month you need to have an idea of what is coming up, and plan accordingly. What you do in the present effects what you can do in the future. That has to be part of the equation. How well the Twins balance that can be debated, but ignoring the future is not a good way to succeed in the ultimate goal of winning as many games as possible throughout the season, and then in the playoffs.

Francona saves his best reliever for the 9th (or 10th) every game, and I'm told (and agree) that he's the best manager in the game and would manage the Twins pen way better than Rocco. When you have a pen that's actually good the strategy doesn't matter so much. The Twins simply need better arms.

[wsnydes]

49 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I also think "Play for the situation at hand, not something that might happened in the 8th or 9th" is oversimplifying things a bit. You can't completely ignore the future. In many ways. Not just in game, but game to game, week to week, month to month you need to have an idea of what is coming up, and plan accordingly. What you do in the present effects what you can do in the future. That has to be part of the equation. How well the Twins balance that can be debated, but ignoring the future is not a good way to succeed in the ultimate goal of winning as many games as possible throughout the season, and then in the playoffs.

I agree with this too.  Who is available and then even where in the lineup the opponent is plays into it for me.  If whoever I bring in gets out of the bases loaded jam unscathed but the top or heart of the order would then likely be due up in the 9th, the decision of who to bring is will be different than if it's the bottom of the order we're talking about.  These decisions aren't made in a vacuum.  I still have to play out the rest of the game.   

At some point, the other arms in the bullpen have to step up.  It doesn't matter when they pitch.  There's more guys in the pen that I want nowhere near a high leverage, late game situation than I trust in them. 

[tlkriens]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Francona saves his best reliever for the 9th (or 10th) every game, and I'm told (and agree) that he's the best manager in the game and would manage the Twins pen way better than Rocco.

Hopefully you are aware of how Francona used Andrew Miller during Cleveland's run to the 2016 World Series. This is the ideal way to use your best reliever, which is was Duran is. Miller even won the MVP of the ALCS. 4 appearances, 7 2/3 innings, 14 K's, 0 runs and three hits.

It's odd how some mangers make different decisions in the playoffs when they need to win compared to the more laid back approach of the long regular season. It'd love to see Duran throw 80-90 innings this year. He'll more likely be around 65, which I feel is waste of a great talent and costing the team wins.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, tlkriens said:

Hopefully you are aware of how Francona used Andrew Miller during Cleveland's run to the 2016 World Series. This is the ideal way to use your best reliever, which is was Duran is. Miller even won the MVP of the ALCS. 4 appearances, 7 2/3 innings, 14 K's, 0 runs and three hits.

It's odd how some mangers make different decisions in the playoffs when they need to win compared to the more laid back approach of the long regular season. It'd love to see Duran throw 80-90 innings this year. He'll more likely be around 65, which I feel is waste of a great talent and costing the team wins.

This is kind of my point. The Twins aren't currently in the playoffs. Last year in the playoffs Francona used Clase differently than he's using him now. Because he takes the future into consideration instead of just the now. Fans live inning to inning, game to game. Managers, and FOs, can't. What's best for that inning isn't always best for the season. And the season is what matters. Winning 1 game today while sacrificing 3 in the future (not saying that's what would have happened using Duran Tuesday, but in general) is a bad strategy.

[wsnydes]

33 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

It's odd how some mangers make different decisions in the playoffs when they need to win compared to the more laid back approach of the long regular season. It'd love to see Duran throw 80-90 innings this year. He'll more likely be around 65, which I feel is waste of a great talent and costing the team wins.

It's not really that odd, actually.  The schedules are structured differently.  In the regular season, tomorrow is guaranteed for the vast majority of the season.  In the playoffs, it's not.  And in the playoffs, you don't need to save your workhorses for the long haul of the regular season and then also, hopefully, the playoffs.  That's also why you see starting pitchers working on short rest rather frequently in the playoffs but rarely see it in the regular season.  

The regular season is a marathon.  The playoffs are very much a sprint.