Sale to the Red Sox

[KirbyDome89]

 

Using J.D. Martinez immediately negates your argument. He was only signed to a major league free agent contract because that was the way to get him over other teams only offering a minor league deal. He was cut and signed two days later by the Tigers. It was no "big money" sort of deal. Please be honest and real about your examples if you're heading down this road.

 

I also never once said they kept all their young players. I said they utilized them in their team or in trade and that the majority of their major acquisitions were via trade, which they clearly were if you look at that list. Free agents were very rare in their team structure.

Whether he signs a minor or major league deal doesn't matter. He signed as a FA. That was the point of the list. There is nothing dishonest about including him in a list of FA signings, but pretending that list doesn't exist and trying to invalidate it because you don't like one of the players included just might be...

 

"They have kept many over the years." 

 

You didn't say that in reference to the amount of talented young players Detroit has?

 

You must have a different idea of what "very rare," means. 

 

 

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Then you've somehow missed how they turned Rick Porcello into Victor Alcantara (via Gabe Speier, who was flipped for Cameron Maybin), Alex Wilson, Michael Fulmer, and Luis Cessna. That's a great trade already, let alone the future value they'll get from just Fulmer and Wilson.

That example isn't even comparable to the value they received in the deals I was talking about. Do you seriously think they can go out and make more trades similar to what brought Cabrera and Scherzer in? C'mon....I thought your whole thing was being honest and real. Again, if you argument is that they don't have to build because they'll steal another 1st Ballot HOFer and pick up another 2 time Cy Young winner before he blossoms then I'll strongly disagree.

 

[ashbury]

I thought your whole thing was being honest and real.

Moderator's note: This really starts to cross a line, on the part of everyone who is taking this tack (recognizing that it was not this post which introduced the phrasing). Please be respectful when posting. One way to help stay on the safe side of the line is to avoid making it be about the other person at all. But, especially, don't ever imply intentional dishonesty.

 

Aside from that, are any new points being introduced? It may be time to put this tangent aside.

[kab21]

 

That farm system is terrible BECAUSE they constantly trade for veterans....The Tigers farm in 2007 wasn't the same as the 2017 version. Every trade and every forfeited pick adds up. By 2014 the headline players they gave up (Porcello, Smyly) in trades were already in MLB. In 15' prospects netted them Cameron Maybin (who was good), and in 16' they picked up Erick Aybar. Apart from the Maybin revival, those moves aren't the same type as the earlier trades that brought in guys like Cabrera, Gose, Anibal Sanchez, Johnny Peralta, Iglesias, Fister, ect... 

 

You're treating those 2 trades as if they're the same as flipping some prospects for a 2.5 WAR player. They stole Cabrera from Miami and Scherzer blew up into a Cy Young pitcher. Those type of trades are extremely rare and they definitely set them up for that playoff run. I'm not missing the point, I disagree with the notion that you can lump all their trades into the same category and say "they've done it before and were successful, they'll continue to do it." Banking on those types of trades isn't reliable. Its like looking at the Twins and thinking they'll find another Johan for Jared Camp. You need a base from which to build. 

It is odd that you look at a long list of trades and then conclude that since they have only traded prospects for Maybin and Aybar in the last two years they won't be able to make similar trade to what they have done in the previous decade. And you somehow discount that both Porcello (a long time ago) and Smyly came out of the farm system even if they were in the MLB at the time. They have been able to use their farm system in an atypical manner to bolster their MLB team for a long time. Other teams wait for prospect to bust or make it at the MLB level and Detroit trades that uncertainty for real production.

 

They also didn't steal Cabrera from Miami. They paid a steep price (Maybin was the #6 prospect and Miller was highly ranked also) and it paid off. Not terribly unlike the Sale trade. They got the elite SP'er and Chicago got the great prospects and risk. Scherzer was also highly ranked and high upside prospect that was one year from the minors. They took a chance on the upside and it paid off. Not terribly different than picking up Norris.

[KirbyDome89]

 

It is odd that you look at a long list of trades and then conclude that since they have only traded prospects for Maybin and Aybar in the last two years they won't be able to make similar trade to what they have done in the previous decade. And you somehow discount that both Porcello (a long time ago) and Smyly came out of the farm system even if they were in the MLB at the time. They have been able to use their farm system in an atypical manner to bolster their MLB team for a long time. Other teams wait for prospect to bust or make it at the MLB level and Detroit trades that uncertainty for real production.

 

They also didn't steal Cabrera from Miami. They paid a steep price (Maybin was the #6 prospect and Miller was highly ranked also) and it paid off. Not terribly unlike the Sale trade. They got the elite SP'er and Chicago got the great prospects and risk. Scherzer was also highly ranked and high upside prospect that was one year from the minors. They took a chance on the upside and it paid off. Not terribly different than picking up Norris.

We've gone over where the farm stands, the fact that Porcello and Smyly were once a part of it is irrelevant to the point I was making about the trades....

 

Yes, I think that constantly trading prospects along with losing picks has weakened the farm system. Yes, I think that unloading prospects right now like they did to get Cabrera and Fister would be extremely difficult. Again, their current farm isn't the same as 2007, so I'm not subscribing to the "they did it already, they'll just continue to do it," logic. Whats odd is that to bring in a player like Cespedes or Price the headline piece in the deals was a young MLB player rather than a prospect. Detroit was detached from their prospects as previous trades suggest; so why not flip more of them for those players rather than give up a starting pitcher? A trade that brought in MLB talent was absolutely what they needed the last couple years, so why didn't it happen? If they're that capable, why weren't they making the same trades the past few years that they were previously. The case has already been made that they have no trouble using a bad farm system to return MLB talent so why give up the starters; unless their farm really is that weak or/and they're moving in a different direction as evidenced by comments the GM made and the fact they're shopping players. 

 

Stop acting like there is no risk associated for the team bringing on the MLB player. You might have a better idea of what you're getting but there is no guarantee of production from the players you acquire on either side.    

 

Getting a generational talent in a trade is a steal. If Sale maintains his current pace for another 7 seasons he'll match Cabrera in WAR. Scherzer had started almost 40 games over 2 seasons when they traded for him. He wasn't a prospect, and the trade obviously paid off. Norris hasn't even pitched a full season for the Tigers yet. I would hold off on both comparisons....Its one thing to say they're following the same blueprint, its another to expect they'll get similar results. 

[Squirrel]

You know, locking up a thread shouldn't be the solution to disagreement. It's actually kind of sad if that is the solution. Why not just shrug, agree to disagree, and just end your part in the discussion without saying anything further and walk away. This need to prove another wrong or prove yourself right or keep arguing until others agree with you or so you can have the last word just isn't constructive. Yeah, I get it, you passionately believe you are right. So what? The other believes that, too.

 

But making your arguments personal toward another is not going to fly. And if anyone is wondering ... a few posts and/or comments were removed that would make my rant make sense.