Gardy's Bullpen Usage Tonight

[drjim]

I had no problem with how Gardy used his pen. Obviously you try to win every game but what is the point of blowing out a pitcher at this point of the season? Burnett, Burton and Perkins had all pitched the previous two games. Frankly I didn't want to use any of them, and if Gardy was only going to use Perkins if the Twins were up in the 9th I don't have a big problem with that.

 

The issue is that his other five options were Fien, Gray, Robertson, Manship and some guy whose name I still don't know. That is more a Terry Ryan issue. I don't think Guerra needs to be called up yet until he has proven he is back healthy and effective, but probably time for Olivereros and Waldrop to be up. Fien might be worth to keep around, but no reason for Gray or guy whose name I still don't know to be here.

[Kobs]

Okay, this isn't really a defense of Gardenhire because as most of you know, I believe that the Twins need some significant changes on and off the field, but here's my take:

 

I believe that the reason Gardenhire and the Twins were able to win the Central fairly regularly over the last 10 years was that he took a "long view" at the season. More than most managers, he epitomizes "keeping an even keel". It is frequently evident in his comments (we'll get 'em next time and we battled our tails off and there's another game tomorrow). It is evident in his lineup construction (please remember the frustration many fans have had when he has failed to move "hot hitters" up in the line-up). It is evident in his BP usage (relievers have a slotted "spot" and he doesn't like to vary from that).

 

And for the most part it has worked in the regular season. Even now, for those of you who are optimistic and refer to the improvements you've seen this season, I think a large part of it is Gardenhire's willingness to stick with his methods even in the face of defeat.

 

But while it has generally made him a successful regular season manager, I've always believed that it contributed to (note I didn't say it was the reason for), the Twins downfall in the playoffs. Then, there ISN'T always another game (or at least not many). Success takes on a new urgency in the post-season and sometimes you have to be creative about what you are doing as a manager and the team needs to be able to shift gears (of course, some power pitching wouldn't hurt).

 

Gardenhire's use of Gray last night really wasn't anything new. And it wasn't anything different from his pattern in years past. With a little better quality BP, he may have "gotten away with it" a little more often but there were plenty of frustrating moments then, too.

 

Gardenhire isn't going to change ,,, the question is whether the Twins need to make one.

The reason the Twins won the Central fairly regularly was because they had good pitching and the ineptitude of the rest of the division, not because of Gardy's inane platitudes.

[Guest USAFChief]

I had no problem with how Gardy used his pen. Obviously you try to win every game but what is the point of blowing out a pitcher at this point of the season? Burnett, Burton and Perkins had all pitched the previous two games. Frankly I didn't want to use any of them, and if Gardy was only going to use Perkins if the Twins were up in the 9th I don't have a big problem with that.

 

The issue is that his other five options were Fien, Gray, Robertson, Manship and some guy whose name I still don't know. That is more a Terry Ryan issue. I don't think Guerra needs to be called up yet until he has proven he is back healthy and effective, but probably time for Olivereros and Waldrop to be up. Fien might be worth to keep around, but no reason for Gray or guy whose name I still don't know to be here.

+1.

 

The "soft underbelly" of the Twins bullpen.

 

Most major league baseball games are close. It's the nature of the beast. You cannot expect to have only 2 relievers you trust in any close and late situation, and have them pitch all those innings. Over the course of a season, your entire bullpen is going to be in position to win, or lose, games. Lots of them. That's the takeaway from this game, not which one of his few trusted relievers he elected not to use.

 

I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

[Kobs]

I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

What a load of nonsense.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

No, we're wondering why the best relievers on the team aren't used in the ninth during a tie game but during a 3-0 game, you toss that "bullpen ace" out there to pitch the inning.

 

It's completely ****ing counter to logic. Well, it is if you want to actually win close and late baseball games at a higher rate than other teams.

[Twinsoholic]

Just compare the relievers Ventura used in the tight game with Jeff Gray. Terrible decision making by Gardy. Casey Fein has actually been the most of effective of the relievers Gardy had available. I've seen Fein pitch in several games, and he strikes guys out. What does Gray do? Gets ahead 0 and 2 and then gives up a hit to Rios, and then gets ahead 0 and 2 and gives Pierzynski a low slightly inside pitch and Whamo--a two run homer with 2 strikes. What the heck was he doing (catcher also included here)? You don't throw inside to Pierzynski--keep the ball away from him and out of the strike zone with an 0 and 2 count. Gardy is so stubborn and predictable in his "maneuvers" with relievers. I suspect more than a couple of people said to themselves "this ain't good" when they saw Gardy bring Gray into the contest.

[Guest USAFChief]

What a load of nonsense.

Please elaborate. I'm sure your take will be every bit as insightful as your one sentence proclamations about the futility of giving Plouffe some ABs were.

[Guest USAFChief]

No, we're wondering why the best relievers on the team aren't used in the ninth during a tie game but during a 3-0 game, you toss that "bullpen ace" out there to pitch the inning.

 

It's completely ****ing counter to logic. Well, it is if you want to actually win close and late baseball games at a higher rate than other teams.

I believe it was "reliever"--singular-- not "relievers". He had Perkins semi-available but would have preferred not to use him. Burton wasn't available. I understand the argument for Perkins, but past that, who are the other options much if any better than Gray?

 

For the record, Gardy has in the past used his "closer" in exactly the situation you described above at home.

 

I think the problem in this case is a shallow BP.

[Guest USAFChief]

Just compare the relievers Ventura used in the tight game with Jeff Gray. Terrible decision making by Gardy. .

Ventura used his "closer" before having a lead in the ninth?

[Kobs]

Please elaborate.

No need.

[Buck Nasty]

I think if you always went with the "use your best reliever" approach, it certainly would lead to a few more wins...at least at the start of the season. Of course, things would probably even out after your best relievers end up on the DL with arm problems. Other guys have to get outs. It was a tie game. Three more outs doesn't guarantee a win. I have no problem with them holding Perkins out of that game. It's a lost year and a meaningless game for us. No sense burning out Perkins arm this year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think if you always went with the "use your best reliever" approach, it certainly would lead to a few more wins...at least at the start of the season. Of course, things would probably even out after your best relievers end up on the DL with arm problems. Other guys have to get outs. It was a tie game. Three more outs doesn't guarantee a win. I have no problem with them holding Perkins out of that game. It's a lost year and a meaningless game for us. No sense burning out Perkins arm this year.

You're right, Gardy shouldn't burn out Perkins.

 

But if Glen pitched a few less 3-0 games just so he can rack up a worthless statistic, maybe he'd be available for a few more of those tie games in the ninth.

 

Perkins could have made the difference just two days ago but he was only "available for a save".

 

So he pitches two innings tonight in what was a 5-0 yawner.

 

Explain how that makes sense in any world.

[Top Gun]

Gardy wanted the win! no lead is safe at Fenway.

[Buck Nasty]

You're right, Gardy shouldn't burn out Perkins.

 

But if Glen pitched a few less 3-0 games just so he can rack up a worthless statistic, maybe he'd be available for a few more of those tie games in the ninth.

 

Perkins could have made the difference just two days ago but he was only "available for a save".

 

So he pitches two innings tonight in what was a 5-0 yawner.

 

Explain how that makes sense in any world.

But doesn't the fact that Gardy used him tonight in a non-save situation go against the theory of only using Perkins when he can pad his save totals? I just look at is as all the guys have to pitch at some point. It seems like Gardy divides up the workload by going to his "A team" (Perkins/Burton) when they have a lead. And he uses the "B-Squad" when they are tied or behind. That's just my observation - generally speaking. I'm not saying that's official policy or anything - just my observation.

[Guest USAFChief]

You're right, Gardy shouldn't burn out Perkins.

 

But if Glen pitched a few less 3-0 games just so he can rack up a worthless statistic, maybe he'd be available for a few more of those tie games in the ninth.

 

Perkins could have made the difference just two days ago but he was only "available for a save".

 

So he pitches two innings tonight in what was a 5-0 yawner.

 

Explain how that makes sense in any world.

Youre not really going to complain about using Perkins in the 8th of a 3-0 game with lefties due up, are you? It wasn't a "5-0 yawner" when Perkins came in the game.

[Dilligaf69]

If they were in the race then NO way Gray pitches, other then that I don't know why and since it does'nt matter much I really won't get bent although most will because it's what they do and there is enough of them.

[Dilligaf69]

Youre not really going to complain about using Perkins in the 8th of a 3-0 game with lefties due up, are you? It wasn't a "5-0 yawner" when Perkins came in the game.

This is what I'm talking about...everything is a criticism even when there isn't anything to criticize. Rube chat part 2!

[Brock Beauchamp]

Youre not really going to complain about using Perkins in the 8th of a 3-0 game with lefties due up, are you? It wasn't a "5-0 yawner" when Perkins came in the game.

No, I don't have much of an issue with Perk being out there tonight, just using it as an example of a three run lead. BUT Gardenhire should have pulled Perkins from the ninth inning. Why is your best reliever out there for two innings in what is now a blowout game when just two days ago, you badly needed him but he was unavailable to pitch? I'm going to keep beating this horse until you understand my point:

 

It is wrong to manage for a statistic instead of a win.

 

Before this thread was started, here were the last four appearances of Perkins:

 

7/22 - 9th inning - 7-3 game

7/25 - 8th inning - 2-8 game

7/29 - 9th inning - 5-1 game

7/30 - 9th inning - 7-6 game

 

Is that how you want to use your best reliever? Three out of four games were junk innings, resulting in two games where he could have been used but wasn't.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But doesn't the fact that Gardy used him tonight in a non-save situation go against the theory of only using Perkins when he can pad his save totals? I just look at is as all the guys have to pitch at some point. It seems like Gardy divides up the workload by going to his "A team" (Perkins/Burton) when they have a lead. And he uses the "B-Squad" when they are tied or behind. That's just my observation - generally speaking. I'm not saying that's official policy or anything - just my observation.

Last night was a save situation.

[Brock Beauchamp]

This is what I'm talking about...everything is a criticism even when there isn't anything to criticize. Rube chat part 2!

Sigh. I've been incredibly consistent with this point... For almost a decade now.

 

Gardenhire uses his bullpen counter-intuitively and it results in more losses for the Twins. It's not a terribly difficult concept to understand.

 

But in all fairness, most of baseball does it as well. That doesn't make it right or smart, though, it just shows the awful groupthink that occurs in this sport.

[Craig Arko]

No, I don't have much of an issue with Perk being out there tonight, just using it as an example of a three run lead. BUT Gardenhire should have pulled Perkins from the ninth inning. Why is your best reliever out there for two innings in what is now a blowout game when just two days ago, you badly needed him but he was unavailable to pitch? I'm going to keep beating this horse until you understand my point:

 

It is wrong to manage for a statistic instead of a win.

 

...

I auppose if players were only a bunch of stats on paper, that would be a law of nature. But some of them are also human beings with egos, and sometimes it's useful to feed them.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I auppose if players were only a bunch of stats on paper, that would be a law of nature. But some of them are also human beings with egos, and sometimes it's useful to feed them.

If you start off with this philosophy in the minors, players will have no issues with it. It's only after you puff them up with grandiose notions of a BS stat to they acquire that "ego".

 

Besides, I thought this was a team sport and that the intent was to win as many ballgames as possible. I didn't realize stat-padding and ego-stroking should get in the way of fielding the best team possible. After all, isn't that the intended message behind "Twins Baseball"? Doing the little things to push your team over the top? Why doesn't that apply here?

 

If the $24 million man can learn a new position in the middle of a season for the good of the team, Glen Perkins can hit the showers early in a game that is pretty much in the bag.

[Craig Arko]

Well I guess that settles it then.

[Guest USAFChief]

No, I don't have much of an issue with Perk being out there tonight, just using it as an example of a three run lead. BUT Gardenhire should have pulled Perkins from the ninth inning. Why is your best reliever out there for two innings in what is now a blowout game when just two days ago, you badly needed him but he was unavailable to pitch? I'm going to keep beating this horse until you understand my point:

 

It is wrong to manage for a statistic instead of a win.

 

Before this thread was started, here were the last four appearances of Perkins:

 

7/22 - 9th inning - 7-3 game

7/25 - 8th inning - 2-8 game

7/29 - 9th inning - 5-1 game

7/30 - 9th inning - 7-6 game

 

Is that how you want to be using your best reliever? Three out of four games were junk innings, resulting in two games where he could have been used but wasn't.

On 7/22, Perkins entered to pitch the ninth of a 7-3 game, correct. But Gray, Duensing and Burnett had pitched the day before, and Robertson, Burton, and Fien had combined for 4 innings in an 11 inning game the day before that.

 

The 23rd and 24th were multli-run losses, so probably no real opportunity or reason to use Perkins there. On the 23rd, Duensing and Burnett combined for 5.1 IP, and on the 24th, Robertson, Fien, Gray and Swarzak all pitched. So that probably helps explain why Perkins was used on the 25th in a blowout...someone has to pitch, and he wasn't used up, and they had an off day upcoming.

 

The 26th was an off day.

 

The 27th was an 11-0 win, complete game for Diamond.

 

28th was a 12-5 win, no need for Perkins, but 3 relievers were used.

 

On the 29th, he did pitch the 9th of a 5-1 win. Perhaps you don't need to use him there, but you've got a lead, and he hasn't pitched in 4 days. You can make a case that had he not pitched here, he might have been more available on the 1st of Aug, when the Twins lost a game that was tied in the top of the 9th. I happen to think the bigger problem is the shallow bullpen, but your point is certainly at the least arguable.

 

On the 30th, Perkins pitched the ninth inning of a tie game, which the Twins ended up winning in the bottom of the ninth, exactly as he should have been.

 

On the 2nd of August, he was used in the 8th inning of a 3 run game, on the road, with the top of the order due up, including 2 LH hitters. Not sure how that's bad. I can understand the argument to let someone else pitch the 9th after the Twins got 2 in the top half, but honestly, I'm OK with trying to nail down the win, too, and just let him finish the game.

 

So in your example above, I think you have one legit point...pitching him on the 29th of July, and possibly he could have only pitched 1 inning yesterday. Other than that, I think when you go back and look at the situation more closely, there are perfectly logical reasons for his usage over that time frame.

 

I also understand your post here is just an example, and that you feel the problem is larger than the past two weeks. Fair enough, but I would argue when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, it's not as simple as it can be made to look.

[Brock Beauchamp]

On 7/22, Perkins entered to pitch the ninth of a 7-3 game, correct. But Gray, Duensing and Burnett had pitched the day before, and Robertson, Burton, and Fien had combined for 4 innings in an 11 inning game the day before that.

 

The 23rd and 24th were multli-run losses, so probably no real opportunity or reason to use Perkins there. On the 23rd, Duensing and Burnett combined for 5.1 IP, and on the 24th, Robertson, Fien, Gray and Swarzak all pitched. So that probably helps explain why Perkins was used on the 25th in a blowout...someone has to pitch, and he wasn't used up, and they had an off day upcoming.

 

The 26th was an off day.

 

The 27th was an 11-0 win, complete game for Diamond.

 

28th was a 12-5 win, no need for Perkins, but 3 relievers were used.

 

On the 29th, he did pitch the 9th of a 5-1 win. Perhaps you don't need to use him there, but you've got a lead, and he hasn't pitched in 4 days. You can make a case that had he not pitched here, he might have been more available on the 1st of Aug, when the Twins lost a game that was tied in the top of the 9th. I happen to think the bigger problem is the shallow bullpen, but your point is certainly at the least arguable.

 

On the 30th, Perkins pitched the ninth inning of a tie game, which the Twins ended up winning in the bottom of the ninth, exactly as he should have been.

 

On the 2nd of August, he was used in the 8th inning of a 3 run game, on the road, with the top of the order due up, including 2 LH hitters. Not sure how that's bad. I can understand the argument to let someone else pitch the 9th after the Twins got 2 in the top half, but honestly, I'm OK with trying to nail down the win, too, and just let him finish the game.

 

So in your example above, I think you have one legit point...pitching him on the 29th of July, and possibly he could have only pitched 1 inning yesterday. Other than that, I think when you go back and look at the situation more closely, there are perfectly logical reasons for his usage over that time frame.

 

I also understand your post here is just an example, and that you feel the problem is larger than the past two weeks. Fair enough, but I would argue when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, it's not as simple as it can be made to look.

Well, it's always the small things. One game here, another there... If Perkins doesn't pitch that junker on the 29th, he's available for the 31st and the Twins probably win that game. But hindsight is 20/20. When Gardy threw Perkins out there for three junkers in a row, he didn't know what was going to happen the next day. He got lucky until it bit him in the ass on the 29th when Perkins was badly needed. What did Gardy do? He showed his true thinking by saying Perkins was only available for a save. The complete opposite of what a manager should be thinking in that situation.

 

Gardy isn't a horrible bullpen manager. That's not my point. He's just not very good at it and he too readily subscribes to the current baseball thinking, even though studies have shown for years that the system is broken and it not only doesn't contribute to more wins but actually might decrease overall win totals of a team.

 

In a franchise that hammers its fan base to death with "doing the little things" and "Twins Baseball", this polar-opposite approach to the bullpen is maddening. I don't understand why this issue hasn't been addressed when it's painfully obvious that it could benefit the team over the course of a season. Why do we yammer on and on about "hitting the cutoff man", "taking the extra base", blah blah blah but give the team a pass on one of its more egregious oversights?

[Buck Nasty]

Last night was a save situation.

I was actually referring to bringing Perkins in during the 8th (hold situation) vs. saving him specifically for a typical 9th inning save situation. It's pure speculation on my part, but I doubt Gardy would have sent him back out for the 9th to get the save if he hadn't breezed through the 8th with only 10 pitches. In that instance, Gardy did exactly what you wanted him to do - used his best reliever in a close game outside of 9th inning save spot.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I was actually referring to bringing Perkins in during the 8th (hold situation) vs. saving him specifically for a typical 9th inning save situation. It's pure speculation on my part, but I doubt Gardy would have sent him back out for the 9th to get the save if he hadn't breezed through the 8th with only 10 pitches. In that instance, Gardy did exactly what you wanted him to do - used his best reliever in a close game outside of 9th inning save spot.

Absolutely. It was the right move in the 8th. If Gardy keeps doing that, I'll probably even back off my complaints about his bullpen management a bit.

 

But this thread isn't only about last night. It's about an overall trend where Gardenhire consistently values the save more than the win. He'd deny it vehemently but all you have to do is look at his actions and his statements to know it's true, even if he doesn't realize it. By buying into that statistic's importance so completely, he has sacrificed team wins in the process.

 

And as fans of the team, we should be calling him out for it.

[Guest USAFChief]

Absolutely. It was the right move in the 8th. If Gardy keeps doing that, I'll probably even back off my complaints about his bullpen management a bit.

 

But this thread isn't only about last night. It's about an overall trend where Gardenhire consistently values the save more than the win. He'd deny it vehemently but all you have to do is look at his actions and his statements to know it's true, even if he doesn't realize it. By buying into that statistic's importance so completely, he has sacrificed team wins in the process.

 

And as fans of the team, we should be calling him out for it.

IMO it's just the oppostie. Gardy values the "W" for a pitcher more than the "S," and often the "W" for a pitcher more than the "W" for the team. I don't usually have much problem with Gardy's bullpen mgt, but damn if I don't get pissed when he leaves a struggling starter in to try to get through the 5th, just so's he qualifies for a "W," when everyone and his mother can see the guy should no longer be in the game. He's openly admitted doing that in the past.

 

That to me is a bigger issue, and one of the few things that bothers me about his pitching staff mgt on a consistent basis.

 

As always, YMMV.

[Brock Beauchamp]

IMO it's just the oppostie. Gardy values the "W" for a pitcher more than the "S," and often the "W" for a pitcher more than the "W" for the team. I don't usually have much problem with Gardy's bullpen mgt, but damn if I don't get pissed when he leaves a struggling starter in to try to get through the 5th, just so's he qualifies for a "W," when everyone and his mother can see the guy should no longer be in the game. He's openly admitted doing that in the past.

 

That to me is a bigger issue, and one of the few things that bothers me about his pitching staff mgt on a consistent basis.

 

As always, YMMV.

At least with trying to stretch out a starter for a little longer than he should, Gardy is also trying to save the pen, which helps the team over the long run. That doesn't necessarily make it right but it does make it a little more understandable. But your point is correct... The "Win" (as opposed to "team win", which was how I was using it) statistic is just another statistic that has little impact on how well the team played or that it was used effectively.

 

On the other hand, valuing the save statistic makes no sense for anyone other than the pitcher who gets to rack up saves. It does not contribute to the overall team's success at all.

[Top Gun]

The manager got to be a fan of the player too and the player gets paid for saves. just look at Mo & Paps.