ewen21

Yes and no. You are correct, they were not rebuilding, but rather had probably the deepest roster they ever had. That was the maddening thing about getting swept AGAIN. I believe you are incorrect to believe that Morneau (if healthy) and Nathan would have made the difference. Nathan was a straight up nightmare against the Yankees and in the playoffs. What about about him makes you think he'd be a difference maker? His postseason pitching record is ugly: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=nathajo01&t=p&post=1 10 games and one save with an 8.10 ERA. Joe also struggled at Yankee Stadium. I had little confidence in him closing in Yankee Stadium just watching his body language and the results in games where he had to go in there. In retrospect, I don't think he or Morneau would have made much of a difference.

It was like he painted himself into a corner with it. The more he hit to slap the less willing he was to take a full confident swing with the intent of turning on it and hitting a places where it cannot be caught. The fact that he went from 2008 to 2017 without a single walk off hit was a side effect of this approach where he seemed content to draw a walk than rather than get the big hit in the big spot. His close and late and high leverage batting averages are both 20-30 to thirty points lower than his career average. He's a no brainer for the Twins HOF and retire the number. Is a lock for Cooperstown? No way in the world, in my opinion.

I often wondered...."where is his happy zone?" and "does he ever recognize he's set up for a waste pitch that could drift over the plate?" Miguel Cabrera once singled on a pitch out attempt. How's that for contrast? Joe did not seem tuned in for a mistake. He never deviated from his approach and his approach was narrow. TexasLeaguers used to put up spray charts and his was perplexing to say the least. He was making lots of contact, but with a table setter's mentality. If he decided to make a more serious attempt to square up a ball, turn on it and drive it more often what the results would have been. I surely didn't expect 2009. I just feel that if the HR and RBI totals were like 2009 with a .285 average we'd have had a better player. He played it "safe" and he did it to a fault, in my opinion. On Cooperstown, I can drive there and get there within two hours. I have never gone during HOF weekend, but have been there multiple times. Does Mauer make it? I have no idea. They lost me years ago. Scott Rolen and Harold Baines get in and Al Oliver and Steve Garvey don't get a whif? No one should be upset if Joe doesn't get into the HOF. Half of his career he was a first baseman/DH and his numbers from those spots were clearly not HOF. Think of a guy like John Olerud. He rivals Joe, in my opinion AND he had a penchant for being on teams that went someplace in the postseason. Those things mean a lot to me. Maybe more than most.

This is not going to be popular here, but I need to say it..... The signing HAD TO happen, but to be honest, I was deeply disappointed with the Mauer I saw AFTER the contract. I will start at the beginning. In my estimation, he came into camp looking absolutely dreadful in 2011 because he literally did nothing over the winter. He had five months of down time over the winter and to get all that money and look so out of shape when he came to camp raised my eyebrows. His body looked like it had atrophied and he looked very pale. You do not get diagnosed with "leg weakness" if you are doing what you should be doing. I made the observation about his apparent lack of conditioning IMMEDIATELY when he reported to camp on the old MLB site. I was treated very harshly for this observation (I didn't care because I can take it). A highly paid athlete should be working hard during the offseason to get his body right and Mauer did not seem to do it. For example, Russell Martin had the same procedure on his knee at about the same time Joe did and he had an all star season--from the catcher position. https://www.nj.com/yankees/2011/02/yankees_russell_martin_wont_ca.html Martin came into camp doing handstands. Clearly he was doing some work. According to his own words Joe chose to rest and take it slow in camp and that cost him, in my opinion. That approach isn't explained away with his humble and self-deprecating demeanor. I understand Joe is chill dude, but it went too far. Harmon was essentially a choir boy and he wasn't turning over buffet tables, so I really do not care about that angle. Bernie Williams was another guy...very much docile, but go take a look at what he did in the postseason alone. Not only that, the Twins lost every single playoff game he played. It is not his fault that Twins lost all of the playoff games he played in, but he managed to drive in just one run in those games. In most of those games we were desperate for a big hit. He never delivered. I do not think that is a coincidence. Did anyone know Mauer actually went from 2007 to 2017 without getting a single walk off hit? He had a walkoff against Oakland in 2007 and by about 2011 I started to notice he had not had a walkoff in a long LONG time. He finally had one in the early summer of 2017. How does a guy of his caliber do that? I do not believe that is some odd anomaly or a statistical coincidence. His career batting average close & late and in high leverage numbers were considerably lower than his career average. Joe developed a nasty habit of deferring at bats and seemed content to grind out walks in situations where he should have been a hitter. If I had a dime for every moment he came up in a high leverage spot and spit on fat pitches he should have driven to Mars I would have $796.51. Finally, it was maddening to watch him get up there and try to inside-out everything into left field. When the shift started he refused to adjust and that was absurd to me. It was more of Joe being Joe and morphing into a player that made no sense to me. The smack singles the other way approach worked against him being a run producer. That is what a table setter does. He was not paid to be a table setter. If he drops a flare into left field for a single it is awfully hard to get the runner in from second base. He did not adjust for situations and that was bothersome to me. Where are the Joe Mauer moments in Twins history? All of them seem to be centered on his personal accolades as a catcher who can hit. I am not trying to take that from him, but we are talking about the contract. HOW did his signing help the Twins? That is the bottom line for me. He seemed to be off the in the corner dancing to his own music (probably that gross TI song) while the party went on without him. I do not dislike Joe Mauer as a person, but he became a very frustrating ball player. Sure, he had a solid comeback year in 2012 and good year in 2013, but apart from that he barely made an impact during the time of his contract. In sum, the contract had to happen. HOWEVER, I cannot imagine him doing what he did in 2011 in New York. He'd have been slaughtered by the fan base and the press and THEY would have been right to do so. He would have needed to stand in front of the press and answered questions and he somehow managed to stay away from the press during that 2011 season. WThat 2011 was one of the most bizarre seasons I have ever seen a player have. The only thing that touches Mauer 2011 is what we see with Buxton. I know.....not a popular take, but I am willing to take the criticism for it.

Injuries and age of caught up with them? That may very well be true but bear in mind Byron Buxton is not even turn 30 yet. It’s kind a hard to say that a 29 year old player is being waylaid by the ravages of time. If that’s what we’re going to go with then all praise of him should end today

Coaching messed him up? No. He has proven to be pretty hard to coach and the Twins brass seem to think that he doesn't even need to be coached. He doesn't make adjustments and isn't one who loves the offensive part of the game. The guy admits to his coaches and the press that he hates batting practice. I think the real problem no one wants to talk about is that he isn't working hard enough at his craft and that he lacks the focus and desire to get through the rigors of daily life in major league baseball.

This article is another example of Buxton being unbelievably overrated. Stanton has had a far more accomplished career than Buxton. If Buxton turned into Stanton, he’d have to be Babe Ruth the next 5 years. He’d have to hit 278 HR, drive in 713 runs. Stanton is 33, Buxton is 29. Buxton at 29 is Stanton at 33. Let’s talk Stanton. His lifetime OPS is .884, He’s got almost 400 homers (393), and he has over 1,000 RBI. Buxton has never scored 70 runs in a season and Stanton had done it five times by the time he was 29. Buxton has never come close to producing like Stanton did. Maybe what you mean to say is Buxton at 29 is like a broken down Stanton at 33. That would actually be closer to reality.

I do. Garza was called up in 2006. I was at the game on September 30th against Chicago where he got smoked.. Kansas City saved us by sweeping Detroit. That said, I think we have a problem developing starting pitching. That "pitch to contact" garbage is long gone, but the stench remains

Fair enough. Then again, in the mid 2000s we were sold on the idea that we had a pipeline of young pitching and Terry Ryan acted as if the likes of Kevin Slowey, was untouchable. In fact, go back as far as 2006 with Garza and find me a starting pitcher who was any good outside of Jose Berrios? Between Garza and Berrios is over a decade. Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Lohse, Mays all had promise and then seemingly got worse as time went on..... Forgive me for this mini-rant, but it is my main bone of contention with this organization. Mid-market organizations like ours should make raising quality starting pitching its prime focus and we have failed at doing so. If you can do that then you aren't constantly in the market trying to find overpriced starting pitchers. We need to raise our own starting pitchers to a reasonable extent and we can't seem to do it. Can we do that now? THis remains to seen,

Being optimistic is fine, but when it starts to shroud reality it becomes problematic.

That is a very short list compared to the list of guys with similar numbers after that many starts that never panned out and are long forgotten.

He figured going to Paris and forgetting about baseball was a good thing. It feels like he doesn't even like baseball right about now.

I am not buying his potential. Sorry. I have seen too much. The guy has played in more than 92 games one time in his whole career and speed guys have a pretty small window.

There seems to be some avoidance over this so whey you say "chilling about it" you pretty much explain Rocco's touch. He didn't embrace the history for whatever reason last year. I felt alienated when Rocco said, "I'm not frustrated at all" after last year's 3 and out. It's funny because the team tries to act all relaxed like it isn't a big thing, but until they can face fact and admit: YES, this is a big deal we aren't going anywhere. Time to own it.

Rocco made some pretty dumb calls and there is no question, but I don't care who we had in that dugout. It could have been Casey Stengel, Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, Muller Huggins, whatever. It comes down to this team (once again) putting together terrible at bat after terrible at bat. It is clear that when the Minnesota Twins reach the playoff the goal has already been achieved. That message has been deeply inculcated into the players coming though our system before they even reach the big leagues. Rocco has been indoctrinated into it as well. In fact, they selected him because they thought he was intelligent and understood analytics and they knew he was a "people person" and a players guy. He proved how super-chill he was after last year's embarrassment: "I'm not frustrated at all" That ring a bell for anyone? We have seen this rerun many times over and it is basically the same thing. We have lost 17 playoff games in a row. In those last 17 games we have scored 41 runs. In the last 15 losses we have scored 31 runs. We can go on and on about pitching, defense, managerial moves, umpiring, shifts, etc....I don't care. If this team is going to average two runs per game in the playoffs they are going nowhere. Rocco deserves to be ripped, but then when he's gone and we get swept out of the playoffs again what are we talking about?

A very definite pattern has developed over the years. Every single time the season starts Buxton looks completely overmatched in the batter’s box. He’s 1 for 13 with 6 strikeouts and “small sample size” doesn’t apply. He’s started every single season horribly. Why is this? Over the last few years he’s been vocal about hitting and what works for him. He’s talked about his need to be comfortable with what he’s doing. I’m not thinking about how he goes back on balls right now (as important as it is for him to clean up). I’m more concerned about his cluelessness in the batters box

I am glad that you did. What a brilliant post!

"You would be forgiven if you simply chose to forget any Twins player between 2011 and 2017 not named Joe Mauer" I would love to forget the 2011 version of Joe Mauer. It was pretty ugly

It's hard to call Mauer a catcher when you look at his entire body of work. Literally 40% of his work was at first base and DH. That wasn't the case with Gary Carter, Yogi Berra, Mike Piazza, or even John Bench (who played multiple positions). There is something to that. We have to be mindful of the fact that the catcher angle only applies to 60% of his career, so when people generalize and speak about the totality of his career it is flawed. We cannot put him in the same category as the great catchers for that reason. Considerations need to get made. It doesn't matter if they aren't made here or even if that concept is accepted here. It WILL factor into the judging process when writers from around the country vote and if Mauer isn't inducted I really don't want to see this place go berserk. The HOF isn't that important to me unless a guy gets totally robbed. If Mauer isn't inducted in the first round or even the second or third we should not be angry or shocked. He is borderline to me. His production dropped way too soon after that amazing 2009 season

It is widely stated here that Mauer's concussions ruined his career. I don't dispute that on its face, however, that was not the case in 2011 (where he was greatly diminished). The first known/documented concussion he had was in 2013. Then in 2016 he stated that he continued to have symptoms for several years afterward. If we are to take Joe at his word, that he felt post-concussion effects for that long....how is it nothing was noted by the medical staff? With matters such as this isn't it incumbent upon the player to be forthright with the medical staff? Why was he still catching? The concussion issues are part of it, but Mauer did himself in as well--in my opinion. He wasn't one to embrace strength and conditioning and he refused to change his approach. He looked weak when he came in for the 2011 and I saw that right away. Not sure what happened to him that winter between 2010-2011, but maybe the pressure of the contract and getting swept by the Yankees again rocked his world emotionally? It sure felt like it to me..

Some rather bold statements in here, but I agree with them. I totally agree with you on Zoilo. THat was the year before I was born so I didn't see what happened, but looking at the numbers the whole thing seems odd. As far as Mauer was concerned. I get what you are saying. He really wasn't a game wrecker like Piazza was or a leader (important for a catcher) and power bat like Carter and Bench. He played most of his career with a table setter's mindset. Matty Alou hit over .330 in four consecutive seasons--from 1966 to 1969. That is great, but give me what Harmon did those years over Matty Alou. That said, Mauer in 2009 was unbelievable and I think Piazza, Bench and Carter had seasons that rival and perhaps surpass what Mauer did in 2009. My trouble with Mauer is this... A lot of people like to say he was "victimized" by Target Field but that doesn't hold up to the actual evidence. When you watch the clip of all of his 2009 home runs (and watch it ALL) it is readily apparent that he hit at least a dozen home runs to center and right field and a good bunch of them went way over the wall. In the entire rest of his career I do not know if he hit that many home runs to those parts of the field. Watch this here and tell me that Mauer didn't hit some monstrous shots to CF and RF. I count about 12 absolute bombs to CF and RF with at least three upper deckers to right field. Sure, he hit a lot of HRs too left that barely made it over the wall, but if you subtract ALL OF THOSE (which is ridiculous) he still has 12 or 13 home runs that were not hit to left field at all. He hit a couple of deep deep bombs to center in NY, a couple in Texas and a couple in Anaheim. He hit six or seven moonshots to right and CF in the Dome: The truth about Joe's home run decline is that he decided to become a table setter. He was all about slapping the ball to left and grinding out walks. Given the money he was paid and what was expected when he signed that contract it is kind of weak, in my opinion.

I am sorry, but getting swept by Oakland in the first round really kills it for me. As great as that comeback was and as breath taking the stretch run was we did nothing with it in the end and I look back on 2006 as a damn shame. I was OK with calling that a successful season at the time, but I can't look at it that way now.

I was born in 1966 so I cannot say I saw Koufax play, but I appreciate what older intelligent baseball lovers have told me over the years. He pitched in a four man rotation and started many more games than Santana did. The most innings Santana pitched in one season was more than 100 innings LESS than Koufax's most innings in a season. In the postseason his ERA was under 1.00 in 57 innings. Oh I know...."small sample size". It matters! I hear Yankee fans grouse about Kirby Puckett getting in and Don Mattingly not. You don't think titles make a difference? This didn't need to get so sour grapes and turn into an indictment on Koufax by guys who weren't even alive until a couple of decades after he retired with an elbow that couldn't be repaired at age 30.

I love Johan Santana. He was my favorite Twins player from when he first became a starter to the very end (especially after he ripped Twins management for putting "the future" ahead of right now). That being said, I am not even trying to hear this "Sandy Koufax is the most overrated..." stuff. It is this kind of stuff, quite frankly, that makes this place seem trite because it is sour grapes BS and Koufax doesn't deserve that. Winning sure as heck matters and Koufax is referenced as the guy who probably had the best stuff and the best stretch a pitcher ever had in the modern era. No reason to go to that tired refrain about Johan not garnering the necessary respect because he played in Minnesota. It isn't a good look, in my opinion.

I am sorry, but everyone outlives their usefulness and that is what happened with Ryan. You can say he was a great scout of talent back in the day and that he did "a lot of great things for the organization", but to deny his incompetence in the end is a bit absurd to me. YOU ARE CORRECT. The Twins were WAY LATE to adapt to change. What the heck is baseball without the dynamic nature of the game? It changes and that is an absolute which must be understood and acknowledged. Ryan refused to do so. The fact is, no matter how unpleasant it is for you to hear, Ryan was fired because he was not fit for the job any longer and we all knew it the day he stepped down in 2007. He even said so himself. Nobody told Ryan to come back, but he did. He stepped away when it was time to deal with Torii and Johan and then came back after Mauer was signed; BUT only when the team completely cratered. It was your standard "low risk, high reward" move that defined Ryan. I guess he figured....the team is already blown up, so how can I screw it up worse? And he did! Had Ryan simply walked away in 2007 and rode off into the sunset as a behind the scenes guy then maybe I can understand your dismay over how Ryan gets vilified. However, he came back when we were safely in a nuclear winter and did even more damage after he came back. Need I summarize his asinine moves of the second tenure?