ewen21

Lot's of people are calling this offsesason a failure without any trouble. I find it somewhat troubling that as many people havent labeled last season a failure after that 3-and-out. Seems rather inconsistent from the fans. I am not saying you or anyone in particular are a person who called last season a "success" and this offseason a "failure" .. I have a problem with those who are doing that.

I respect what you are saying, but I’m highly skeptical about what he can bring anymore and I’ve always liked the guy. Heck I was half hoping he’d put Perkins in his place back in his Oakland days when Perk popped off on him. Then again, I’ve watched baseball since 1972. We just don’t see many players do very well into their mid-30s. I’m not saying he’s going to suck, but it’s really hard to swallow this “price point” of his on principle. Two good years maybe for 9 figures? I think I’ll pass

"Strong history of durability" amounts to five seasons of getting the qualifying plate appearances and one of the last three to be exact. He has done that once since he turned 30. He's not the same guy at 34 that he was 27 to 30. I am about facts as well, Chief. Last year there were 17 position players who reached 400 PAs at the age 34 and over. Just of them had a WAR over 2.0. Nelson Cruz led the way and he is a rare exception. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=400&type=8&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=34,58&filter=&players=&startdate=&enddate= Joey Votto has power and plate discipline and his numbers dove at age 34: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml Robinson Cano had durability that makes Donaldson's durability barely noteworthy. He fell off and so did his durability right around 34/35 years old: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canoro01.shtml Same thing with Miguel Cabrera: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cabremi01.shtml Same thing with Albert Pujols: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml I am not "vastly overstating" concerns about age. What I am saying I would bet against him having even 75% of the durability he was able to boast during his prime years. This is based of tons and tons of historical data over decades. .

What do you mean explain? Durability is a finite thing when it comes to athletes. He is a 34 year old third baseman who has had made the qualifying number of plate appearances once in the last four seasons. He had four seasons in a row with the qualifying number of plate appearances before last year. Those were ages 27 to 30 . Do you expect this to just start happening again because it's happened before? Tell you what....I wouldn't wager on that happening more than once again. Batteries last only so long, candles last only so long, cars and machinery last only so long ….and so do baseball players. Most don't even make it to 34. Just about anything that does work depreciates and wears out. This isn't a AA government bond we are talking about, Chief. He is a 34 year old baseball player. This isn't rocket science.

I am not making the freakin offers. I am just telling you something and I am convinced you still do not understand it. I think the FO gets what I am saying and you don't

I am on record in this thread with my theory as to how money doesn't matter enough of anymore once you get into 9 figures. These are baseball players. They aren't running a major operation, with hundreds and hundreds of employees and all sorts of responsibilities. They just have to play baseball and they don't even need to do it well because the money is guaranteed. Donaldson is set to earn 9 figures and he has already earned 80 million. What the heck does 10 million more even mean to him? Honestly. That kind of money doesn't have the sway that it would for a guy looking for a one year deal or a two year deal. So please....don't talk to me about Lance Lynn, Odorizzi or whomever. That is on a totally different level and is nothing to do with what I am saying and the effect that a guy like Donaldson is experiencing right now. This idea that says...."Man, If we only give him 10 million more than everyone else we would have him!" is futile and it isn't even necessarily true. He is going to play where he wants. Isn't that what being a free agent is all about? The dude lives in Mobile, Alabama and is from Jacksonville, Fl. He's spent his time far away from home in Oakland and Toronto. YOu don't think MAYBE he'd like to finish up closer to home? You don't think MAYBE he's just using the Twins and has no desire to play anywhere but Atlanta or some team with REAL playoff pedigree? Come on now.....please

Dude, it's like you're dancing with no music playing. Neither were poised to earn 9 figures like Donaldson is right now so they are completely irrelevant to my point And Mike, I keep repeating it because of posts like this. I SPECIFICALLY talked about guys looking for the big multi-year deal approaching 9 figures, the silly money.....and he brings up Lynn and Cruz. Really???

I didn't say ALL OF THEM will. I am saying for the upper-echelon guys it's becoming more about where they want to play than it is the money. They already have their money. When you talk about guys who have already earned, 50, 60, 80, dollars and more looking for a multiyear deal they care more about where they end up than a guy like Lance Lynn on a one year deal. You seem to understand what I am saying, but I am stunned by the level of incredulity demonstrated here. Simply put, the players make too much damn money and this is the side-effect. If you are a supporter of the player's union and their right to be free agents then I don't want to hear any complaining about how the FO can't sign guys. I am not saying you are, but there are a number of people playing both sides of that fence and they don't even know it.

I've already told you why. When we get into high price tag, big earner, multi-year deals players hit a saturation point. What the HECK is the difference between 90 million and 110 million? Certain players are starting to earn so much money that 10 and 20 million dollars can't even sway them. Bumgarner admitted he left money on the table and it's likely his agent and the union wasn't all too happy about it, but he spoke the truth. This isn't about GUYS DON'T WANT TO PLAY IN MINNESOTA. It is more about these high price tag free agents tend to have other preferences and they make so much damn money now that 10 or 20 extra million doesn't even move the needle. Those other dudes you mentioned didn't have the same kind of leverage. Pretty elementary stuff

That’s the problem. Any team can do that in baseball and baseball players get absurd amounts of guaranteed money. There comes a point where money doesn’t matter as much to the players and other factors play into it. If we were talking about the difference between 60,000 and 80,000 that’s significant. When it gets into the silly numbers (where baseball is now) other factors start to play into it more and more.

I’m not saying NO ONE WANTS TO COME TO MINNESOTA. I’ve looked at each FA signing this winter and each FA seemed to have a preference. Minnesota wasn’t one of them. And that’s no “excuse” It’s just reality. The way things are set up we are one of the many teams at a distinct disadvantage and it goes further than just money—although money is big factor

I defer to your formidable knowledge of Korean, but I must say I’m stunned that you reject the notion that Toronto’s fairly large Korean community had little to do with his decision. If he were a fluent speaker of English I’d not even bring it up. He isn’t. This is born out of the same notion that urban enclaves form to give immigrant groups an easier transition. All kinds of ethic groups have done this from time immemorial. Another 10 or 15 million likely wasn’t going to land him. And had we done it that would have proven to be a mistake.

Korea is in Asia, Chief. I know that Toronto has a very large Asian population, but more importantly, it also has close to 100,000 South Koreans. He doesn’t speak English. He speaks Korean. You can doubt the importance of this fact all you want. Why would he not want to be in a place where there is a community of people who can feel at home with and socialize with? Another place that wouldn’t have surprised me is with the Mets. There is perhaps an even larger Korean community in Queens. You can get on your high horse and insist this isn’t a factor. I tend to be more open to things like this whereas you are a “money talks” kind of guy. I believe in that to an extent, but it’s not EVERYTHING. You’ll learn eventually.

Do you think we should have went higher to get Ryu?

Let's say we signed Donaldson to the 4/110 deal he wanted and we outbid Toronto and signed Ryu to 4/100. Would that have satisfied you?

It's going to be cold tomorrow. THat's speculation, too. HOnestly, man. You seem utterly incredulous too what the guy just said. I tend to believe that if you have 6 or 7 million dollars tucked away and aren't a complete stooge you can write your own ticket. I am willing to bet Donaldson isn't the greedy pig you assume that he is. I am willing to bet his family and his personal desires go beyond just money at this point. The guy has money already. He has a killer pension. What don't you get?

"the narrative" was not created by me and I am not beholden to it. At no point did I weigh in on Ryu wanting to stay on the west coast, but I can totally see it. It is not "spin job" to say it makes sense Ryu ended up in Toronto. Not to me, at least. There are a lot of Asians in Toronto. I know this. I have lived in upstate NY for almost my whole life and have met my share of Ontarians. Ryu going to Toronto makes sense to me. I don't feel the need to explain it to you any further. As far as overpaying for a free agent, when I am inspired by a particular player that I think fits and makes sense I will call for the Twins to overpay. You have called for them to overpay for ALL OF the five guys discussed this winter. That is your strategy and it makes no sense to me. Battle on, though....I like the emotion. Would have liked to see you join me after the 3-and-out but I guess that didn't upset you quite as much as not signing free agents this winter. That is just odd to me, but I respect the fact that you complain--even if I don't think it makes any sense at all for each of the five guys we did not sign Not one bit of sense.

Guys making more money than God isn’t a excuse. You just don’t get the implications of players making crazy money and what it’s done to the game. If a guy like Donaldson from some jerkwater town in Florida already has earned tens of millions of dollars and is assured an amazing pension anyway, what is the difference between getting 90 million and 120 million at the end of his career? He’s already earned over 80 million. Cut out the taxes and pay his agent and he still has earned at least 30 or 40. What if he just wants to play near home? He’s married and he’s got enough money for a couple of generations of Donaldsons. Ever think of the possibility that baseball players are so rich these days that 10, 20, 30 million doesn’t make enough of a difference? He wants to use other teams against the Braves to jack up his price. Do you not get this or do you just want to throw tantrums all the way until the season starts? ALL you have done over the last month is complain daily about how the Twins aren’t paying every single free more money than everybody else in the market. In every single case you have advocated for the Twins to outbid the entire market for each of the last five big free agents. Well guess what? It’s not happening. And furthermore, Donaldson isn’t going to put us over the top. Donaldson and Ryu together wouldn’t have. Scream all you want now. I’m done talking about Josh Donaldson

That is exactly what he is doing because that is how the system is designed

THANK YOU. Getting to the postseason is not a "success" if you lose 3 straight in the first round. The fact that the Twins and a lot of fans have pronounced last season a success is troubling to me. I woulld be willing to say last year wasn't a failure had we battled the Yankees tooth and nail and come up short. Even then, I could not call it a "success"

Toronto has a HUGE Asian community so that likely helped them in signing Ryu. We have no idea how much of an influence that had on him, but they are excited to have him: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-s-korean-community-excited-after-blue-jays-sign-star-pitcher-hyun-jin-ryu-1.4745115?cache=yes%3FclipId%3D104056%3FclipId%3D1723871%3FclipId%3D104070 You seem to be hung up on WE DIDN'T OFFER HIM ENOUGH MONEY. What do you think it would have taken? Also, do you understand he has pitched more than 90 innings twice in the last five seasons? I am kind of mystified as to how you or anyone could be so up in arms about not giving a pitcher like this 100 million dollars. Please explain that one.

What would it have taken in your estimation? Also, do you consider for one second that players who are already rich beyond any measure don't really care about a few million dollars more a year when they already know they are set to be worth close 9 figures no matter where they go? When you get in that range of money other things start to matter more. I don't think you are willing to grasp that.

Donaldson already earned 80,000,000 in baseball and he has a pension for life. Do any of you really think he is going to take 110,000,000 over 95,000,000 to play someplace he'd rather not play? He used us to jack up the price. The guy has more money than he knows what to do with and because of that for a lot of guys it goes well beyond the money now. There was a time when extra money did provide more of an impetus. For these high price tag free agents who already have a set pension and have earned as much as Donaldson, what do they care about 5 million more when they are already set to make 25,000,000? As a man, I know that if I had the money Donaldson had already, I would be more concerned about location than I am money. He is from Jacksonville, FL. He probably has family and friends all around and is more concerned about THAT than money. I know that is an impossible concept for some to grasp, but just because a lot of people cannot wrap their arms around it doesn't mean it isn't the main factor in this case.

Or maybe it's more to do with the fact that guys we'd wouldn't mind moving just aren't as good as a large part of the Twins fanbase and organization touted them to be? I think of prospects as meat. If there exists a team like this one, with a core of good players well under thirty, then prospects should not matter. We should be selling off literally ALL OF THEM without any consideration about what we lost. We need to be more worried about what we could gain than what we might lose. Not with a team that has this makeup. The other problem is, we just cannot compete in the FA market for reasons that go beyond money. I think being pathetic losers in the postseason is probably the worst thing about this team. The fact is, we can lose every game in the postseason and there is no shortage of fans who still call the season a success. I don't know how that works to help foster a culture of winning. When you consider the location and add to that postseason futility which is both historical and hysterical, then it's a problem. All this complaining about not signing free agents this winter was ridiculous. Especially when it comes from anyone who believes the players should be free to play where they want and sign absurd contracts that have no limit. Most franchises in baseball are hamstrung by the system the players have fought to have and certain fans love to defend for whatever reason. We are one of those franchises that are at a disadvantage and it goes far beyond money. The money has gotten so insane that 15, 20, 30 million extra dollars isn't enough incentive to get players to play here. Why in the world should Bumgarner want to come here? For 15 or 20 million more dollars when he's already earned 57 million dollars by the age of 30? A country boy like him from North Carolina has all the money he will ever need and then he goes into the open market. He is going to choose where he wants to play and he was going to get more than enough regardless of where he signed. It was about where he WANTED TO BE. He wants a ranch in Arizona. He wants that life. He isn't getting that in Minnesota. So everyone who got up in arms about offering MORE MONEY MORE MONEY MORE MONEY really needs to take a seat for a little while. It is over. To survive, we not only need to be very strong at developing players, but also we must be smart enough to trade off talent to make the big club better. This garbage about "mortgaging the future" when the core of the team is young and talented is straight up weird. If we are so besotted with a guy like Buxton then send Kirlioff and Larnach packing to add pitching depth. If Graterol is ready then screw the service time nonsense. Call him up now. Find creative ways to use him. Do it! I don't blame the FO for not hitting a home run in the FA market. The system is such that we'd need to outbid the entire market by a lot in order to entice players to come here and that is not a sound way of doing business. It is stupid, desperate, irresponsible and will likely lead to trouble. What this team needs to do is not get connected to prospects at all. We surely need to treat them well, raise them to become pros and all the good stuff. However, when it comes to future plans we need to stop acting as though the players we draft are going to be Twins by the time they get to the league. They are nothing more than assets the contribute to the success of the operation. If trading one of those assets helps the operation then that asset served a purpose. If we have meat to sell in the minors to improve the major league team then do it. That is the beef I am starting to have with this FO. They need to make a signature trade real soon. Something that will shake the organization a little and perhaps change the culture a little.

101 wins. You saw that all the way?