chpettit19

He's not going to get them in AAA either as the plan is to play him all over the field to get him used to being a super utility guy for the rest of the season.

Your question isn't accurate. None of those players need to go anywhere. They can carry a max of 13 pitchers starting May 29th. They will carry 13 pitchers because they always do. Until then they're likely to carry 12 position players and 14 pitchers. 12 position players: (Garlick would be in for Larnach until he comes back) Byron Buxton Carlos Correa Jorge Polanco Luis Arraez Gio Urshela Gary Sanchez Ryan Jeffers Nick Gordon Gilberto Celestino Max Kepler Trevor Larnach Royce Lewis Then once they have to send a pitcher down on the 29th they can call Garlick back up. Or Miranda. Or Kirilloff. Or Godoy. Or Contreras. Or whoever in the world they want. But you can pose your Arraez, Urshela, Sanchez, Gordon, Celestino question all you want. None of them need to go anywhere in order to keep Lewis. As I've now said 3 times Kyle Galick, who is an awful defender and only hits against lefties, is the guy I would send down.

Kyle Garlick. As I mentioned and you again ignored. But why wouldn't a pitcher be an option? With Bundy back they appear to be putting Winder back in the long relief role. Ober is coming back before Larnach. So they'll have plenty of pitchers. Why wouldn't that be an option? And, yes, I'm focused on keeping the best players in the majors. Why would anything else be the focus?

The options? Isn't sending Miranda down now instead of "soon" an option? Isn't Lewis learning 1B on the fly like they're having Arraez do an option? Or putting Kepler there since he's played 1B before. Isn't sending a pitcher down when Larnach is ready to come back an option? Isn't Buxton, Polanco, Correa, Lewis, Arraez, Larnach, Kepler, Celestino, Urshela, Jeffers, Sanchez, Gordon, Garlick as your top 13 an option? Or if you really don't want to send an arm down before the 29th isn't sending Garlick down when Larnach comes back an option? I notice you left the no defense, short side of a platoon bat out of your list of possible roster moves.

So send him down before he has the chance to be bad? He's not currently bad so that doesn't make much sense. Nobody is saying he's guaranteed to be great for the rest of his career, but currently he's one of the 3 or 4 best players on the team while they have another top prospect who is currently bad that they left on the team. Why wouldn't playing time in the bigs be guaranteed now? He's one of your best players. Buxton is sitting or DHing multiple games a series. Gordon isn't lighting up scoreboards. Urshella isn't either. Arraez doesn't hit against lefties. They've been DHing their catchers. There are plenty of ABs available on a team that isn't scoring many runs at all for one of the few guys that are hitting at the moment.

Why not send Miranda down now and wait until you actually know when Larnach is coming back before you send the better player down? What if Larnach isn't ready to come back until May 27th? That's 2 days before they need to jettison a pitcher. At that point wouldn't you jettison the pitcher on the 27th and not have to send Lewis down at all? I don't understand the rationale at all. Lewis is better than Miranda right now. There's no question about that. Why send down the better player? I fail to see that rationale.

Sounds like the plan is for Royce to bounce around the field in AAA before being recalled as a super-utility guy. Hate it. Don't get the need to send him down for a month or whatever for that. The kid stepped into 3B and CF with no previous experience there in the AFL and more than held his own. He's one of your 9 best players in the organization. Put him on the major league field and let him be an athlete.

Disagree. I mean the positioning literally comes from the dugout/index card. You or I can go out there and stand in the right position because they literally tell him where to stand. What decision making are you talking about? Which base to throw to? Where to go on cutoffs? If he doesn't know those things now he's probably not going to figure it out. What teamwork? Turning double plays? They get that rhythm in practice, not the 1 double play they turn a game. I don't disagree that there's absolutely a benefit to playing games. Game speed can never be replicated in practice. But the things you seem to be talking about can 100% be worked on in practice. My point isn't that he never needs to play SS to improve, it's that the difference between playing there 4 or 5 times a week in AAA vs playing there 2 times a week in the majors is miniscule. And he's not working hand in hand with a former top prospect who was a bad fielder and turned himself into a platinum glove winner if he's in AAA which I think pretty well balances out the extra couple games he'd play there in AAA. Not to mention that my guess is that if he goes back to AAA he's not just playing SS. Their plan would absolutely not be to keep him in AAA playing nothing but SS until Correa is hurt again or next season. He'd go down and play some OF, 3B, and 2B so he could come back up and play all over the field for the stretch run and playoffs with the Twins. So now he's playing the same number of games at SS in AAA as he would in the majors and the strategy of improving his defense at SS is completely out the window. Sending him back to AAA wouldn't be because they think that's the best place for him to improve his SS defense.

That's fair. 1 win after 0-18 would be nice.

What does "playing to win the regular season" even mean? Is the argument that the game is drastically different in the playoffs? I'm sure those players would say that. 29 teams every single season to a man would tell you they came up short. You do know only 1 team wins the World Series every year, right? Again, I don't think Rocco having a 1-5 or 2-5 postseason record would change many opinions. Again, if you can tell people the secret code to winning in the postseason you can have any job with any team in any sport. I have some connections in the Twins FO and I'd be happy to pass the code along and just get you a nice consulting fee of a few million if that's all you're looking for and not a fulltime job. Let me know what strategies you think they're missing. Here's a free fact on strategies: HRs are one of the "stickiest" stats from regular season to postseason. So HR rate for hitters changes very little between the regular season and postseason. The Twins built a HR bashing machine in 2019 then stopped hitting HRs in the playoffs. What should Rocco have done differently to fix that? Should the FO not build teams that hit HRs in the regular season because you don't like it even though a hundred years worth of stats say you're wrong?

And I'm saying that's not what they're facing. At least not every time out. If the Braves and Astros had guys throwing like Verlander was the other night they'd have averaged more than 5 innings a start. The Astros had 1 pitcher go 8 innings in a start (I think it was Valdez, but could be wrong) because he was throwing so well. But since Morton, Fried, Anderson, et al for Atlanta, and Grienke, Valdez, Garcia, et al for the Astros weren't throwing like Verlander a few days ago they didn't get so many innings. This idea that every playoff team is running out a staff of aces is wrong. They're not. Many of them have at least 1 ace, yes. What some of them have are guys with names you might recognize. But if the Twins are a top 5 pitching team (which they were in 2019 and 2020) and a top 5 offensive team (which they were) in the regular season it's because they can get good hitters out and hit good pitching. 5 games is a super small sample size. It just gets blown up because it's the playoffs and the Twins are historically bad in them the last 20 or so years.

Here's my thing with needing to play SS everyday, does it really matter that much as far as improving his defensive ability? I'm talking game reps since I assume that's what people mean by "playing SS everyday." Correa won the platinum glove last year while playing 1304.2 innings at SS. He had 578 balls hit to him. So in a longer season with more innings (majors vs minors I mean) he averaged about 4 balls per game. So the argument is that Royce needs his 4 balls a game in AAA to further develop? I find it hard to believe 4 reps a game is what turns him into a better fielder. Isn't it the thousands of reps he takes outside of game play that improve his abilities? And if that's the case can't he do that in Minneapolis while providing one of their 9 best bats and still getting 8-12 balls at SS a week instead of the 20-24 he'd see a week in St Paul?

No, it isn't. The 2 teams in the world series last year each averaged less than 5 innings a start for the postseason. The Astros averaged less than 4 innings a start. And as I pointed out in my other comment, the Brewers ran 3 aces out there last year and went 1-3.

That's why I said the continuation of the playoff losing streak is the big part of the negative narrative. I'm not one to say it's the manager's fault that Jorge Polanco throws a routine grounder darn near into right field despite being 10 feet away from 2nd. Hard to blame Rocco for Pineda being suspended in 2019 or Buxton being hit in the head by a pitch a week or whatever before the playoffs start which left the team shorthanded. He's 0-5 in the playoffs. Not great at all, certainly. But if you're going to ignore some pretty incredible stats over 420 regular season games in favor of 5 playoff games there's no argument anyone can make against it. If you can solve how to win consistently in the playoffs and which strategies will translate into consistent postseason wins you can pick any job you want with any team in any sport. The Dodgers sure would like some help since they've got the best regular season stats in baseball for darn near a decade and have 1 championship to show for it. The Brewers ran 3 aces and the best reliever in baseball out there last year and won 1 game. I know 1 is more than 0, but I find it hard to believe people would be happy with Rocco being 1-5 instead of 0-5.

So if Royce Lewis isn't close to a gold glover he needs to be in AAA? That has to be top 5 in boldest statements I've ever seen on TD. So your stance is that the current Twins team would be better off having Royce Lewis in AAA until he's a gold glove caliber SS instead of having him learn from a platinum glove winning SS in the majors while providing an improved bat for the offense? Did you know Carlos Correa was considered well below average defensively when he first debuted? Last year he was voted the best defender at any position in the American League. Would it have been better for Houston to keep him in AAA for 3 or 4 extra years until he was a gold glove caliber SS? They're not exactly known as the best defensive team in the history of baseball. I think Royce following Correa's career trajectory would be an awfully nice outcome.

Why do you say his defense needs to "improve vastly?" Certainly has room for improvement, but vast is a big word to use there. To follow that up, how much improvement do you need to see out of him before you'd be willing to have him on the major league roster? Does he have to be a gold glover? League average (which I'd argue he is right now)? Completely finished defensive product with no room for improvement? You bring up players doing well hitting then falling on their faces, does that mean you'd send him down to AAA to avoid him falling on his face? He's not currently falling on his face in the batter's box. How does he establish that he's ready and won't fall on his face if you don't keep him in the majors and give him ABs?

Here's the pitching info since Rocco took over: From 2019 to today MIN has the 10th most pitching fWAR in baseball. So even with the disaster of 2021 they're top 10 in all of baseball. If we just use 2019 and 2020, you know, when HRs saved Rocco, they were 2nd in all of baseball. They're 8th in baseball in WPA since 2019. Since 2019 they're 3rd in WPA for relievers. That sounds like a pitching strategy that is working awfully well. Here's the OBP vs SLG numbers since Rocco took over: OBP .324 good for 8th in all of baseball. SLG .450 good for 3rd in all of baseball. wRC+ 108 good for 4th in all of baseball. Runs scored 2077 good for 6th in all of baseball. There's a little room for improvement in the OBP, but they're not exactly struggling to get on base. What's really clouding things is the continuation of the playoff game losing streak. If people want to blame Rocco for those loses that's one thing, but the stats don't match up with the rest of the narrative about him or this team since he took over. They're getting on base plenty and scoring plenty of runs during the regular season. They're pitching plenty well and getting incredible performances out of their pen during the regular season.

Option 4: combine options 2 and 3. He's currently one of the 9 best hitters on this team and if they're serious about contending this year you keep him up because he gives you a better chance to win games. Correa was already getting regularly scheduled off days before the hand injury so there's no reason to think that will change. Lewis is their best SS after Correa so it makes sense to give him a couple starts a week there when you DH or sit Correa. Put him at 3B for 2 other starts a week and LF/CF (I assume he could handle LF without any issue and we've seen him play CF very well in the AFL) for another 2 starts a week. He's getting everyday ABs and gets to work with Correa on the side for his SS defense.

Joe Ryan is at 37.2 innings in 7 starts this year. As the only Twins arm to make all his starts he's the best comparison we have right now. League leaders are at about 50 innings in 8 starts. Verlander leads guys with 7 starts at 45.2 innings. So Ryan is about an inning per start behind the top guy. But he has 4 starts of either 6 or 7 innings which certainly suggests they're willing to let him go when he's on.

You're kidding right? Did you watch the playoffs last year? I'll just do the Braves and Stros here since they were the WS teams, but here's their starters innings in each of their playoff games last year. Braves: 6, 6, 5, 3.1, 6, 3, 5, 1 (followed by 3.1), 4.2, 4, 2.1, 5, 5, .1 (followed by 4.2), 2, 6. Clinching game 6 and starter had a shutout through 6 and they pulled him. Average start less than 5 innings (and that's even counting the 3.1 and 4.2 as the true start. Stros: 6.2, 4.1, 2.2, 4, 2.2, 1 (Odo came in and then went 4), 1.2, (no pitcher went even 2 innings for them in this game), 1.1, 8, 5.2, 2, 5, 3.2, 4, 2.2, 2.2. They had 2 games with a pitcher going at least 6, and 2 more that they made it through at least 5. 4 out of 16 games with a guy who made it through even 5 innings. That's 25%. Average start less than 4 innings. So, as others have pointed out, these "valid criticisms" are criticisms about major league baseball, not Rocco or the Twins. This is how the game is played in the regular AND post seasons.

In this thread? Don't know that I've seen a specific call for that here. In general? Happens pretty near everyday in game threads on TD and all over Twitter, etc. literally everyday.

Rocco is always a fun topic. My main view on him is that those calling for his head wouldn't be happy with his replacement anyways. Not because those fans would just never be happy with a manager, but because he'd be replaced by someone who would make basically the same decisions. There may be a small difference here or there, but the complaints about short starts and ever changing lineups wouldn't go away with a new manager as those are organizational strategies. Unless Pohlad fires the entire organization and decides to bring back TK and TR this is the new normal for the Twins. So I'd suggest fans who don't like it at least try to educate themselves on it and start to accept it or they're just going to keep being angry. It's not changing anytime soon. (For the record I hate the ever changing lineups and don't get the strategy behind hitting Sanchez in the 3 hole these days) I haven't seen it posted here yet, but I'm sure we'll see a "if he doesn't have a team hitting 307 HRs to cover up for his mistakes he's terrible!" post eventually. There's always at least one in these threads. They bring me endless joy because it gives me a chance to point out that from 2019 to today MIN has the 10th most pitching fWAR in baseball. So even with the disaster of 2021 they're top 10 in all of baseball. If we just use 2019 and 2020, you know, when HRs saved Rocco, they were 2nd in all of baseball. They're 8th in baseball in WPA since 2019. Since 2019 they're 3rd in WPA for relievers. Seems weird for a team with a manager who has no idea how to manage a pen. They're 15th in starters innings since 2019. Which just goes to show they're not doing anything crazy with their starters. Gleeman mentioned in an article in the last couple days that the average start this year is 4.9 innings and 80 pitches. So I'm pretty sure Rocco, and the FO, aren't just completely off the rails when it comes to pitcher usage. As I said in the first paragraph, I don't really get the lineup construction sometimes and that they always change things. I'd guess the strategy is to set the lineup up for the best chance to blast the starter and get him out and take their chances after that, but it doesn't seem to be working right now and tends to leave them in tougher spots late in games when you have Gary Sanchez hitting with the game on the line and 2 outs while leaving Polanco standing in the on deck circle. But they have so much more information than we do so I assume it's a quite well educated decision. Overall I don't think managers have as much to do with Ws and Ls as fans tend to make it sound by getting so upset about some things. I don't understand all of the decisions made, but I do know firing Rocco means they just get Rocco 2.0 in his spot. I've heard almost universal praise for Rocco and the org from players who have left (Shoemaker being the clear exception). The current players are fans of his usage and giving Buxton rest. I mean Correa had some real strong words about it. I'm not huge on Rocco or the current way the game is played, but I think he's a solid manager who isn't costing the team games by any means.

The problem I have is the same one I have had with their usage of Kepler and Sano the last couple years. Quit hitting Sanchez 3rd! I know the lineup is hurting right now, but he's done absolutely nothing to deserve hitting in front of Polanco. If Sanchez is used as the backup catcher he's absolutely fine. Again, the lineup is hurting right now so it's not totally possible, but if/when the lineup is at full strength he's a more than serviceable option as the #2 catcher. Urshella is finally starting to drop in the lineup which makes sense. He's the best defensive 3B on the team so it's certainly reasonable that he sees playing time there. His ABs look wildly different from day to day. It's really weird. But I don't think it's the end of the world having him at 3B and we can hope he heats up a little in the power department as the season goes on. I don't get the suggestion of DFAing either one. We're watching a lineup of young guys struggle at the major league level and we're suggesting cutting the veterans on the team when they're in first place? Bold strategy. Not to mention the injuries we've already seen are the exact reason you don't just start DFAing guys who have been above average major leaguers. Why would reducing depth be a good strategy? If Miranda clicks and starts hitting great by July maybe you talk about it then, but to this point in his career he's had 1 insane outlier season with video game numbers and then a bunch of "meh" years. I believe in him and think he'll be very good, but cutting somebody to make room for him when he's been nothing special in AAA or MLB this year doesn't make much sense to me. Arraez and Lewis are the other likely options, but Arraez misses time every year, and while I'm the biggest of Lewis supporters I'm never cutting a guy in May to make room for a guy coming off 2 missed years. Move Urshella to the bench, sure, but don't cut him.

I'm going to go with "win a playoff series" as the context for "being real." The Braves showed last year that just getting in and giving yourself a shot is really the key, but I won't try to argue that with the Twins hanging onto an 18 game postseason losing streak. So I'll say if you win a series there's no reason you couldn't win 2 more in the playoffs. With that being the definition I'm using I'll say I believe the Twins with their 26 best players healthy are "for real." Now I don't have a great deal of faith that they can get into October with their 26 best players healthy and that puts them on the border of being "real" for me. As for the schedule argument, it's awfully hard to ever be "real" if your schedule is full of bad teams that you beat, and good teams you hang with, if beating bad teams doesn't give you any points. Especially when you've not exactly been at full strength for most of the time. Beating the bad teams shouldn't automatically make you "real," but it also can't just be ignored. The Dodgers don't win 100 games each year by simply winning 100 games against playoff teams. Beating the bad teams is part of being "real." Dominating the bad teams and playing .500ish against the good ones is a realistic outcome for "real contenders." The struggle with arguing that for the Twins is the 18 game postseason losing streak. Hard to convince people the team is different until the team does something different.

To be fair Buxton has only had 6 singles and 4 walks. So he's been on first only 10 times. I don't know if any of those also had a guy on second at the time as I'm not going to take the time to look that up, but 10 times isn't a lot of base stealing opportunities.