DocBauer

We have had various debates in different threads regarding Park and Mauer individually, now and going forward. And we've had various threads regarding the preferred makeup of the team going forward to close out 2016 and going in to 2017. But I'd like to focus on this one area: 1B/DH and the three men that would seem to be the principal targets going forward. Park Right now, Park is in Rochester, possibly getting healthy (as debated and discussed in another thread) and hopefully getting his groove back. I, amongst most I'm sure, was surprised, somewhat pleasantly so by the Twins aggressivenes,at his initial signing. I wasn't necessarily thrilled as I felt we had sufficient options at 1B and DH that I felt money and attentions should have been focuses elsewhere. But this is not a continuing debate as to the handling of Sano and whether the team should have or should not have acquired Park. They did. He's here. And while the transition hasn't gone smoothly, he has shown potential and a solid 1B glove. While his success in Korea in no way assures future success at the ML level, it indicates the POTENTIAL to succeed considering how good he was there. And again, we've seen glimpses. I don't believe he should be written off yet due to some early struggles and possible injury. Mauer Even with half a season left this year, I think we can aLloyd feel pretty comfortable that we know what Mauer is as a hitter. Unfortunately, age and injury have robbed him of his elite hitting ability. He is now a .260-.270 hitter with still decent OB ability, but zero speed or XB power (save a brief HR outbreak to close out May) As someone pointed out recently elsewhere, he is on pace currently for his lowest doubles output ever despite being healthy and playing on a regular basis. He remains signed for 2 more years and remains the hometown guy who is a face of the franchise. Some would say lightening rod. I am in no way bashing Mauer. I'm simply stating facts as they are. We're he still a solid to good catcher, his disappointing numbers would still be valuable. But that ship has long sailed off in to the distant horizon. Nor am I advocating some ridiculous move back behind home plate. But at this point, while still a part of the 1B/DH situation, we have to ask what value he brings to the team? It could be argued that he's solid defensively at 1B and still provides some contact and OB ability as a #2 hitter. But I have to ask, if Buxton could improve enough the rest of this season and next to BEGIN to grow in to his ability, and hit at the top of the lineup, with a number of other options such as Nunez, Escobar and maybe Polanco, Mauer would fit best as what, a number 8 or 9 hitter along with whoever is catching? 1} Is it possible, despite being a competitive athlete, that Mauer would simply decide/realize he's not the player he was, is never going to be again, and would decide it's time to walk away before he grows even more frustrated and declines any further? Especially if the team were to buy him out and offer him a position within the organization? 2} Is it possible the Twins, especially if their is a new sheriff in town, would come to Mauer and strongly suggest it's time to move on and offer him said buyout? 3} Is it possible said new sheriff, with the blessings of ownership, would simply part ways with Mauer, while still on the financial hook, to move the team forward in the rebuild and offer Joe the chance to maybe hook on with a contending team as a veteran option? Are these ideas really outlandish for a rebuilding team with other options available and getting younger? Vargas Vargas is the wildcard in all of this. He won't be the ripe old age of 26 until the first of August. He's more of a DH than a 1B, but he plays the position, has always worked hard on his defense from all accounts I've ever read, and is not as bad defensively as others I've seen over the years. To my best recollection, he was never rated as a Twins top 10 prospect anywhere, though he may have been entering 2015 if he hadn't exceeded the maximum number of AB during the season, but was always in the top 20 or honorable mention lists outside the top 10. But ignoring the odd SB or triple, I think we should take a moment to reflect on his milb numbers. The following is year-level-age and quad slash line with doubles and HR numbers. 2009 GCL 18 .257/ .369/ .404/ .773 7 DBLS 3 HR 109 AB 2010 GCL 19 .324/ .388/ .507/ .895 15 DBLS 3 HR 142 AB 2011 ELZ 20 .322/ .377/ .489/ .865 11 DBLS 6 HR 174 AB 2012 BEL 21 .318/ 419/ .610/ 1.030 10 DBLS 11 HR 154 AB (injured?) 2013 FTM 22 .267/ .344/ .468/ .813 33 DBLS 19 HR 457 AB 2014 NBR 23 .281/ .360/ .472/ .832 17 DBLS 17 HR 356 AB (Twins debut) 2015 AA/AAA 24 .283/ .414/ .496/ .910 9 DBLS 13 HR 244 AB 2016 ROC 25 .235/ .353/ .435/ .788 13 DBLS 14 HR 285 AB While maybe not an elite prospect, those numbers show a young man who switch hits, can hit, gets OB, and produces power numbers. (I purposely didn't include RBI) He made steady progress up the Twins milb chain every year except for repeating the GCL, which is common. He was never old for any level he played at, and made his ML debut for the Twins in 2014 at the age of 23 despite never seeing AAA yet. And he was impressive. .274/ .316/ .456/ .772 10 DBLS 9 HR in 215 AB Considering his youth and no AAA time, regression in 2015 was perhaps expected. He wasn't impressive in 2015 with the Twins at .240/ .277/ .349/ .626 4 DBLS 5 HR before being sent back to AA and then later to Rochester. Still, we've seen worse lines, and as I recal, he was starting to hit better before his demotion/exile to milb. Despite a poor start to his 2016 season in Rochester, and subsequently low BA, he has gotten OB and provided power with a .788 OPS before his promotion. I don't believe this young man should be dismissed in the discussion for the DH/1B position going forward with the Twins. Again, he won't be 26 until the first of August and has a track history in the minors of hitting, getting OB and producing quality numbers. But I also don't see room on the roster for all 3 of these guys. What do you all see happening? How should/could this work for the Twins?

Frankly, the truth to all of this is probably somewhere in the middle. Park is adjusting to the ML level of play, and at SOME POINT has indeed probably had/has some form of injury that is hampering him. Further, not only do most athletes play through dings and dents and the such during the season, but there is always the pressure to endure, succeed and not let your team down. Not only is this true for "rookie" Park, but he's also carrying the attention of his home country focused on him. Dozier to be honest, until the recent health and promotions of Sano, Rosario and Vargas, the other options were somewhat limited. (Not getting in to the whole Arcia debate again. It happened) Right now, he just needs to get healthy and get his swing back, get in a groove, and worry about the rest of the season.

We'received all agreed, you don't trade Santana or Dozier unless the return is a good one. Maybe even unexpectedly good, the market will tell us I guess. Will the market be better now? Or the offseason after teams begin to re-examine and re-build their rosters? Or next July at the next trade deadline? I think the most important question is what's best for the Twins going forward. No doubt to continuing the rebuild and making room for the prospects. To me, this clearly means parting ways with Nolasco, Milone and Ploufe and probably Suzuki as well. I'm not so sure that should include Nunez or Abad, neither of them would be expensive to keep another year or two, and the team may be better with them than without them. And nkw, and to at least begin 2017, I'm not sure keeping g either of them actually blocks anyone at this point. But keeping them, or moving them, is an interesting debate and one where I can see both sides. But the real debate here is Santana, and now seems to include Dozier as well. And so I ask again, what's best for the Twins? Of course adding good young players to your organization is always a good thing. It's the life blood of your entire organization. Not only in terms of new, rising talent but also providing trade options. But is keeping each of them maybe better for the team for the immediate future? It's not unreasonable to see Gibson, Berrios, Duffey and May as 4 of the 5 SP options for 2017. But who fills the 5th spot? Dean appears to be a fringe player (though I like his approach) while Wheeler is a complete unknown at the moment and Meyer is a mystery (though we'd all like to see that mystery solved) Our top pitching prospects are a good season away. Keeping Santana, for now, provides a solid, useful veteran presence in the rotation. We're I a betting man, I'd wager he's got at least one more solid year left in him, and is more of a cost-controlled and known factor that what next year's crop of FA options would provide. More or less the same for Dozier, for now, until we know better what we have in Polanco. Again, not saying don't move them if the offer (s) are good ones. But in regard to 2017 and various comments about not giving up on a season that's not even here for some time yet, I ask again, what is best for the Twins? And I'm not so sure the immediate future isn't better with them than without them.

I've heard various arguements that the Twins should look for a SS in any trades. I wonder if this should be so. With Gordon a top prospect, Vielma an intriguing one and Escobar and Nunez holding down the fort for now (each with solid to better than average bats), plus maybe Polanco, I think I'd direct my attentions elsewhere. Despite Garver looking good at AA and Murphy still a possibility that shouldn't be given up on so soon, I'd probably look at catching help as my top priority. With top pitching arms at AA, at least a year away, if Santana is gone it creates a need for a ML ready or near ready arm. And I have to wonder if there is a Joe Nathan-like arm out there just waiting for an opportunity who could help solidify the bullpen? I think these are the areas I'd be looking at.

Not going to attempt to put words in Brock's mouth, but I don't believe he is actually saying the Twins will contend in 2017. I think he is simply saying not to write offor the season before it begins because things can happen. Am I correct? Loook, I'm not saying I expect the Twins to contend in 2017 either. There are just too many IF'S that have to take place. But, the team is actually playing better. And what if the young OF, and Sano keep developing and are even better next season? What if Gibson is healthy and keeps improving, same with Berrios and Duffey and hopefully May? Add someone at C, add a reliable arm to the pen, and a .500-ish finish the second half of this season could provide optomism for 2017 to be a .500 or better club. Last year, neither the Twins or Astros were supposed to compete, so things do happen. That being said, I'm not opposed to moving Santana or Dozier. And I think we universally all agree the return has to be worthwhile. Otherwise, wait until teams recalibrate their roster's in the offseason, or wait until next July. The simple question that has to be asked, IMO, is "are we better with what we can acquire? Or are we better off keeping these two guys for the time being so as to not create more immediate holes?"

Agree that he should only be traded if we get a surprisingly good return. His stuff still plays decently. His next 2 years are affordable and fair value, even if he begins to decline in the final year. It makes little sense to move him for anything other than a surprise, and then go sign another similar starter next offseason. (If there's even one as good and affordable) Dump Nolasco and Milone ASAP and bring up Berrios. Stretch out May, IMO, but also consider giving Wheeler a shot.

Well an injury would help explain the sudden drop off after he seemed to be getting in to a groove. But why oh why didn't someone think to DL him and get healed up?! Especially in a lost season, why are we playing a guy hurt who is not producing? Just dumbfounding!

I love topics like this as a guilty hobby I've always had is just playing around with "fantasy" versions of the Twins lineup/roster. (All my favorite sports teams for that matter) I like and agree with most of what you've stated for the remainder of this year and going in to 2017. But there are a few areas where I disagree on the finish to 2016. While Dean has had a couple solid starts, and I like his approach, I think I'd add Wheeler to the 40 man at this point, since we have room I believe, and see what he can do over Dean. And with Meyer currently unavailable to injury, again, unfortunately, I'm more concerned with starting him Rochester. I'm not giving up on him yet. And I'meant just not sure if Ramirez fits beyond the moment. I'd bring up Boshers again. Other than that...Maybe give Wimmers a shot so you can make a decision on his future. Has he found something this year in the bullpen? Or is it an illusion. But then again, I'm not sold on trading Abad either. 2017: I agree with Nolasco, Milone and Plouffe gone immediately, if not sooner. There is a lot of disagreement on E Santana. I'm favoring keeping him at this point. Unless you actually receive a fairly good return on him, I keep him for 2017, at least to begin the season. If you move him, you're probably going to have to sign yet another veteran SP in the offseason, at least on a 1 year deal of some sort. I'm not sure you've actually helped yourself. Same with Abad. Unless you receive a pretty good return, he's good enough, has generally been good enough in the past, that re-signing to a couple more years could be prudent and not overly expensivd. I understand the Wilson Ramos idea. And I'd be thrilled to have him. But we're still not sure what we have in Murphy. I have a really good feeling about Garver. Turner has a shot as well, but I think he's further away and Garver is the better prospect. And frankly, despite liking Ramos, I believe he'll be 28 or 29 next season with a bit of an injury history. And I'm worried about the terms to bring him on board. I think I'd be more tempted for a veteran stopgap, or someone like a Zunino from another club that hasn't lived up to expectations, but is talented and young enough where a change of scenery could make a difference. 1B Mauer/ Park or Vargas 2B Dozier/Polanco SS Nunez & Escobar 3B Sano OF Rosario-Buxton-Kepler/Grossman C Murphy/TBD That's 13 with guys like Centeno, Garver, Beresford (hopefully), Granite and Palka waiting in the wings at Rochester. ROTATION Santana Gibson Duffey Berrios May Meyer, Wheeler and Dean are initial reserves (theoretically). The remaining top SP prospects won't be ready as of yet. BULLPEN Quality FA TBD Chargois Pressly Tonkin Rogers Abad TBD-Kinzler, Boshers, Wimmers, ? It's a young team with a handful of over 30 yo veterans filling spots for a season or two as we await addition prospects that would begin 2017 at Rochester and Chattanooga.

I think this is a great point. All that talent and potential, but young, a few injuries, and so raw held him down somewhat his first few seasons. It's hard to pinpoint exactly why, but I've always been a believer in him and his potential. I believe last season and the glimpses we've seen this season are real. In fact, I'm actually a little surprised, pleasantly so, by his play so far this year. I know this may sound strange, but I've always seen him as a slightly poorer version of Mauer as a hitter, but with more power and speed. I believe he could do well in the 5 spot, but feel he's the team's eventual 3 hitter.

At this point, as fans suffering but with rather obvious changes in the roster/lineup these days with more to invariably come, don't we have to divide the season in to entirely different halves? I mean, we're not going to erase disappointment, frustration and a generally horrible first half. But we are opening the second half of the season with an OF that includes Rosario, Buxton and Kepler with the "old man" Grossman being a solid surprise. Sano is now playing where he should. Vargas is up and getting a shot. Some guys in the bullpen are looking like keepers. In the not too distant future, as I stated earlier, Berrios, Chargois and Polanco should be up. I don't know if this new look, younger version of the Twins will play .450 ball, .500 or .550 ball. But I'm looking at the second half of the year as its own season at this point.

I pretty much agree with the original list as well. I think Garver is also a must. And I'd really like to keep Granite. He could be a solid 4th OF and potentially a starting LF and quality leadoff candidate. I just don't see Thorpe being taken based on health, recovery and limited level advancement. No to Harrison at this point. Also agree on Wimmer and Wheeler getting some time the second half to see what we have in them. Wimmer is doing surprisingly well at AAA but he doest scream draft steal at this point.

You have to believe that Chargois is going to spend the majority of the second half of the season with the Twins. Don't you then HAVE to move Hildenberger to Rochester for the second half as well?

As of today's promotion to AA, Jay has made 13 starts for FTM and 69.2 IP. I don't know what kind of IP limit the Twins want to hold him to this season, but I would suspect 110 to a max of 130. I would think he'd be in line for 4-5 GS at AA before finishing in the bullpen.

This is my feeling as well. I'm focused...even amidst a dreadful season and the entire TR will he or won't he be back...on how we play and finish the rest of the season. I'm focused on this because a} frankly, better baseball and my team playing better and winning is a good and fun thing, (duh!) the actual play of the youngsters! As bad as the season has been, there are a lot of things to pay attention to and enjoy: *Buxton is being allowed to play almost daily, and there are positive signs *Ditto with Kepler *Sano can still mash, will only get better, and is playing 3B *Rosario is talented, bashed AAA, is back up *Grossman, I think, is a nice overall player we uncovered *Gibson is rounding in to shape and pitching much better *Ditto for Duffey, who still doesn't have a full season under his belt yet *Rogers, Pressly and Tonkin are all young RP looking positive *Berrios should be up soon to finish out the season *Chargois will be up again, and probably fairly soon *I'm thrilled Vargas is up and playing and I hope he runs with the opportunity *Polanco? (Sigh) Hopefully up soon. These are all good, exciting things to watch the rest of the year from a nice collection of young players. With more to follow.

While Berrios should be back up soon, hopefully to stay, this also opens a spot for Wheeler.

I know it's stating the obvious yet again, but getting Polanco some serious time at the ML level is of the utmost importance here. Is he good enough to replace Dozier and trade him in the offseason? With no more options after this season, can he be brought along more slowly as a utility player for the time being, at least to begin 2017? While we can debate the usage of certain players, and the team won't actually acknowledge it, this team is in rebuild mode at this very moment. Kepler, Buxton, Grossman and Rosario are in the OF. Sano is playing 3B. Duffey is in the rotation, Berrios probably will be soon, Gibson is not old. Dean has had a shot, may get another one, and Wheeler will at some point as well. Chargois will be up, this time, hopefully, he stays. Rogers, Tonkin and Pressly are now bullpen fixtures and none are old, especially for RP. There is still work to be done, of course. But the Dozier question really can't be settled until we learn more about Polanco at this point.

LOL! Of course I meant Rosario. I don't know if that was me or my auto correct. ☺

I like the move. Vargas has ability. He's shown power and OB this season. The BA is still rather low, but I'd be interested in a month to month breakdown if anyone has one available. He started slow before picking things up, so I wonder if the BA is skewed a bit. The power and OB are more telling, yes?

Not a batting order, just as I see the roster as of now: LF Berrios CF Buxton RF Kepler OF Grossman 3B Sano SS Escobar 2B Dozier 1B Mauer DH Park UTILITY Nunez, Polanco, Santana C Murphy & Centeno I'm still betting on Park improving and sticking at DH. Beresford and Vargas are on the outside looking in for the moment. The team will look at trades, waiver wire, FA for a 3rd catcher option. My roster has 14 position players. This allows for a single injury, and a possible trade of Nunez or Dozier (possibly Polanco). DH could also be a rotating position if Park or Vargas doesn't take hold of the opportunity. ROTATION: Santana Gibson Duffey Berrios May Wheeler, Dean and Meyer are your reserve options. If Santana should be traded for any kind of decent return, as I talked about in another thread, you have a hole that may be filled by a veteran FA to be signed, possibly on a 1 year make good deal. BULLPEN: Tonkin Pressly Chargois Rogers This is your start. The pen is just too fluid right now to call. Abad and Boshers could be LH candidates. I'm thinking right now Kinzler may be back on the cheap. I'd really like to see a quality FA signing here to remove some pressure from the younger members and bring some stability. I'm thinking, at least to begin 2017, that youngsters like Melotakis, Burdi and others just aren't ready yet.

I was thinking about this today in the car, listening to the end of the game, and rolling through various possibilities regarding the roster, changes, next season, etc. We can...and often do...debate the merits and potential of youngsters Duffey, Berrios, May and (the still young) Gibson as parts of the Twins rotation plans. I include May here because a} he has been a SP, b} it only makes logical sense to look at him again as such considering, c} he did get an all too brief "audition" in ST as a starter, d} Ryan has referenced before that the Twins still see him as a potential SP, and e} any new GM with any intelligence at all (should a change take place) would also more than likely want to see him in that role again. It is not far fetched, and I dare say even logical, to see 4 rotation spots in 2017...if not sooner...portioned out to Gibson, Duffey, Berrios and May. But who is the 5th SP if Santana, as trade rumors and reports speculate that he may be one of the more enticing rotation trade acquisition targets, is in fact moved? Surely the team wouldn't keep Nolasco for his final season under contract would they? You can't possibly count on Hughes can you? Do the Twins go and sign yet another veteran to fill the spot and provide that veteran influence? Maybe someone on a 1 year make good contract? Do they go out and trade for a veteran or young-ish veteran who doesn't fit in with his current team's plans any longer and needs a change of scenery? What do you think they should do if teams come calling and they move Santana?

1) Ryan made comments a month or so ago concerning a lack of job security and how it was up to him to prove to ownership that he was the man for the job. 2) This is the most vocal Pohlad has ever been. And he certainly didn't offer any endorsement, glowing or otherwise, in regard to Ryan. 3) The back peddling on Molitor is interesting. To me, an obvious "well, a new GM may not see it the same way" moment. 4) Examine the entire organizational structure is also telling. The Twins usually keep things close to the vest. I find this to be telling. But you have to examine, study, research, etc. Foolish to think the first week of July you would just fire everyone in charge of everything from TR on down. Majors and minors, you still have a season to finish. But it sure appears to me changes are coming to this team

Wow! They actually did it! I'm actually in a state of mild shock. I just hope this is not the end of the moves.

You listen on Dozier. You maybe even put out your own feelers on him. (Novel idea huh?) And you probably move him if the return is a good one. More and more, I'm thinking you HAVE to find room for Polanco, play him just about everyday SOMEWHERE to see what you have. And moving Dozier may be a better offseason move. I'm torn on Nunez. Single season aberration or not, he's a useful bench option at worse, IMO. With Plouffe invariably gone, Nunez could be nice to have around if you would truly think about moving Dozier. I believe respect and reputation and a shortage of catching should make Suzuki marketable, just not a high return. Go with Murphy and Centeno, and look for a 3rd option. Maybe someone stuck on the bench who hasn't yet lived up to expectations and needs a change of scenery. I still believe Jepsen needs to go one way or another. So does Nolasco. But if you were to trade Santana AND remove Nolasco...can't believe I'm saying this...but your rotation may be an even bigger mess than it is now. I'm not opposed to removing both, and you open a 40 man spot for Wheeler obviously to get a look-see, but at some point, you almost have to sign or trade for another SP then.

I wish Hughes all the best! You never want to see someone injured and require surgery, especially if it could be career threatening. Strictly from the practical, baseball side of things, this goes to show the Twins can't go in to next season with ANY notion of Hughes being healthy, recovered and ready. (Perkins the same, for that matter) Which again scrambles the ideas for the 2017 rotation. Not to conjoin threads, but it makes it all the more imperative, in my opinion, for May to start. I still believe the Nolasco experiment should end for both parties sake. And I'm not opposed to moving Santana, if the rumors we hear about his potential trade value are accurate. Berrios, Duffey, May, Gibson and maybe Wheeler at least offer youth and potential. (It's also possible Dean and Meyer may yet be part of this equation) But if Santana is indeed moved, the Twins may still have to sigo a veteran SP...possibly on a 1 year make good deal...or trade for someone. But it is imperative they don't count on Hughes.

I'm kind of with Mike on this one. Keep him: He's good enough and young enough to be part of the rebuild and provide a veteran presence. Keep him 2: Play Polanco as much as you can the second half and trade Dozier during the offseason if you're feeling good about Polanco. Trade him: Find a team in a race that needs him, values him, and sees the friendly contract. I agree a top 100 prospect and at least one more solid addition. A catcher and SP would be ideal.