DocBauer

Agreed. But, love ya dude, at some point we all just have to drop the Badoo angst. I hope the best for the kid, I really do. And maybe he will continue to excel and maybe he will bottom out. Maybe he's out "payment" for receiving Santana as a rule 5, traded for, balancing act in the scheme of the cosmos. But we need to move on. IF this was a past Twins team coming off a 90-100 loss season, they may have protected him. But an A level ball player with missed time is just not going to be protected on the 40 man for a contending team with players ahead of him in the system. Weird stuff just happens! And I know you were only making a simple comment, but as an organization and fan base, I really hope we can just let this one go. Kirilloff and Larnach are here to stay. They both impress the hell out of me with their approach, despite being rookies, Larnach being pressed in to full time duty earlier than expected maybe more so. And AK has been playing and producing with a wrist that needs rest and treatment. These 2 guys are here to stay and only going to get better. We can take that away from a disappointing 2021. I was concerned that Jeffers 2020 was going to come back and bite him, It hasn but only because he's still so young. We can all see the potential. In a lost season, everything he's doing and gaining and learning will help his future. I feel bad for Rortvedt at this point and hope be will take what he's experiencing right now and use it to grow when he's sent down when Garver comes back. The same for Celistino. He's been pressed in to duty AFTER Cave, Kepler, Refsnyder and even Garlick taking turns in CF. And now Gordon has been learning CF on the fly. Not going off topic, just extrapolating how a lost season can bring value of experience to AK and Larnach and others. And I've mentioned those who could and should benefit going forward, (keep Gordon playing for goodness sake)! But you also mentioned Miranda. Even though he's not part of the OP, sorry Cody, we just can't ignore what he's doing. From every report we've ever heard and listened to, it was only about him finding his power to go along with his approach and potential defense and versatility as a good athlete to establish himself. He's doing that now. Again, not trying to steal the OP. What the Twins OF needs is a quality, reliable RH bat to work with Larnach, Kepler and Kirilloff....who will also play 1B....though I just don't know right now who that will be. IF Donaldson is traded, Arraez is the first guy to fill in. But in this lost season, there will be an open 40 man spot for Miranda to continue to step forward. There will be growing pains as there have been for Kirilloff and Larnach, but at some point you also have to just promote and "run with it" in regard to a top prospect.

My thoughts, with apologies I didn't have time between work and lawn work afterwards to read everyone's comments. I just want to toss my $.02 worth. Even with the crapshoot that is the ML draft, your top 10 selections remain pretty important. And as an outsider looking in, I'm really pleased thus far. As I stated in the 1st day thread, pleasantly surprised by Petty and just don't understand why/how a HS pitcher with 100MPH heat and some decent secondary offerings and projectability lasts that late. I'm trusting the Twins scouting department watching an athletic, defensive SS probably more intently than others. I'm trusting their hitting projections at this point over the scorecard I've seen concerning his hitting and power potential. But I was very pleased with day 2, again as an outsider who pretends to know anything. I laughed and shook my head about comments regarding Big 10 pitchers, I get it. But there has been a real shift the past few years in the Big 10 when you look at Indiana, Michigan and Nebraska, etc. And I applaud 3 LH college arms added day 2. It's not only a need, but a trio of solid arms with results and projectability that have potential to add velocity and develop the rest of their repertoire, which is exactly the formula they've been following with Canterino, Sands, Winder and others. I wouldn't be surprised if Macleod, with professional coaching, doesn't turn out to be the best of the three. Both catchers, if the reports are correct, have defensive chops. Cardenas has flashed offense before a disappointing 2021. And Winel comes from a smaller school who missed the abbreviated 2020 season due to arm surgery, That can be a big deal, But if his arm is good going forward, sure seems like he has some potential in both sides of the plate offense and defense. The organization has a handful of interesting catching options at A ball but needed to add to that, I think they would have jumped at Mack if he had slid a couple more spots over SS Miller. But they got a "slider" in Cardenas and another solid option in Winkel if his arm remains sound. Just not sure what to think of the infielders. OK State has a good program and Ecarnacion-stroud seems to have the bat and the arm, but there are questions about hands and range. Not trying to be a blind optomist, but I've seen a number of guys including some great Twins 3B, that had similar questions before time and work turned them in to quality defenders. With a bat and arm, he's worth working with, For those who oppose the Twins early college bat choices they waited until the 4th round this year, lol. But a big bat and a good arm are WORTH taking a look at, right? Rucker reminds me of Steer and an infield version of 2020 draftee Alerick Soularie, also from Tenessee. A decent bat and glove with offensive potential who may not play up enough to be a top prospect but who may have a ceiling we don't know yet that could surprise. Yake seems like a possible Dozier clone. And there is merit in that. You don't draft from pure NEED in the ML draft like you do in the NBA or NFL, but you can still draft in regard to organizational need. So far, between 2019 and 2021, with a few others tossed in, the Twins have hit the infield pretty hard. They've added a pair of top 10 selections at catcher to follow Jeffers and Rortvedt. And then they added a trio of intriguing college LH arms, much needed, after taking a HIGH upside HS arm. The only selection that I'm scratching my head about is Adams from Sacramento State. The numbers just don't scream anything. I need to look closer, assuming I can find anything of value it must be build and length and something they see potentially. [Winder part 2]? Not entirely sold on the college infielders, but really like everything they've done the first 2 days.

Very surprised by both of these picks. But surprised pleasantly so. My gut told me the first selection would be a college pitcher....which I would have been OK with...or a college bat. With the crapshoot that is the ML draft, you just don't know what you're going to be able to grab in the late 20's. Think Levi Michael for example. I LOVE the pick of Petty as a 6' 2" HS kid who almost certainly isn't done growing and filling out yet but who already throws 100MPH and has at least one additional quality offering with potential. Honestly, I'm surprised he lasted that late. His ceiling alone should have had him gone 5-10 spots earlier. As compared earlier, think of Green picked 2nd or 3rd just a few years ago with similar velocity and projectability. I am not going to pretend to know anything about Noah Miller at this point except for the one scouting scorecard I saw and what Johnson has to say about him. Now I'm confused by the scorecard I saw because the numbers don't equate to what I hear Johnson saying. Scorecard says a defense first SS with a quality arm...which I'm OK with but not this high...with a 60 for fielding and a 55 for arm. No problem! He's got a 50 for speed again no problem. He doesn't have to be a basestealing wizard or speed demon to still be athletic and play a good SS. But the 45 hit and 40 power seems to fly in the face of the Twins' opinion. But with so many kids missing seasons due to covid, with travel and scouting time interrupted, with kids missing camps and not being able to play on travel teams, etcm I guess I'm going to side with the team/scouts that have been watching the kid closely for the longest period of time. Further more I think there is a real or imagined sort of prejudice against kids from the Midwest, northern states and Canada often because they simply don't have some of the same year round opportunities that others have. So I love the Petty choice and I'm super intrigued by a HS defensive playing SS that the Twins think has real hitting potential.

I like this thread idea! 1] Keep Ober on the bump every 5th day! He probably won't be a STUD, but he has control some wicked moving stuff, deception, and new velocity. Quit arguing about IP! The Twins are working him in and ramping him up. 2] When Dobnak is healthy, get him out there. He flashed a little late in 2019. He looked really good in 2020. He looked great in ST this year, FWIW, but has been bounced between starting and relieving and some injuries. Are we so focused on a disappointing season that we can ONLY see bad performance vs good performance? Let him be healthy and take the mound and see what he can do. You realize he's barely beyond ROOKIE status, right? Right? 3] When Happ is gone, and probably Pineda as well, there is room in the rotation. A lot of people want Barnes. He's actually been promoted fairly aggressively, so the Twins see something they like. Unfortunately, I just don't see it right now. I just don't see enough STUFF. I could be wrong. He may have earned a shot. ButWinder and Duran....assuming full healthy....should be part of the 2nd half rotation. Whether you go a 6 man rotation or not, or piggyback some games, run with 6 SO. 4] Just quit believing Colome is going to find himself again and forget his option year. Let him go, He MIGHT find himself next year with a different organization. But sometimes guys just don't work out or fit. Move on, Bring up Hamilton. He's a former top prospect who has gone through hell and back but has been doing well at AAA. Give him a shot. Promote the BP arms at AA Wichita to AAA and give them a shot. Injuries across the board, and I'm sure we're not the only team, have made us grab waiver wire pitchers to help, fill in, and carry some hope of a surprise. But trust in your system post 2020 and let a few guys surprise you! You are NOT going to build a super bullpen for 2022 with your milb talent! But you COULD find an arm or two who surprises at some point. Farrell and Law COULD be part of 2022 with a few smart additions. But if you are truly looking ahead, just recognize you have a handful or arms who might help next year and get them the experience they need to get ready. 5] The roster for 2022, IMO, needs a 5th OF who can play a decent OF and be a solid producer at the plate. Kepler should be a 120 game player in RF and backup CF. But he needs a partner. Do they have that partner in Rooker or Garlic or Refsnyder? This is a spot I want to see auditioned. Either we have a real option here or we need to find one, 6] And thjs is where you will see me really argue against Rocco and the FO. Gordon! How in hell can we protect Gordon, believe in Gordon, play Gordon at SS primarily through his milb development, play him at SS in ST, and refuse to play him at SS at the ML level? On the fly he's learned to play CF and looked at least competent at doing so. And the Twins probably need to find a full time SS so Polanco can remain as a potential stud at 2B, while still being able to fill in competently at SS. But why in hell isnt Grodon allowed to play SS at the ML level at this point? SOMEBODY is being really stupid at this point

His delivery is not "flaily" though I appreciate the attempt to create a new adjective, lol. I believe what you were attempting to describe is that his delivery resembles a trebuchet...long range medieval weapon....that "slings" destructive objects. In this case, some wicked pitches. The side by side of his slider and curve is awesome! I see the slider biting down and to the left side of the plate and the curve having a little more "hump" and more of a traditional 12-6 downward movement. The fact that they look the same early but have different movement kate and are a couple MPH different can make each devastating to both RH and LH batters. With any sort/form of change....straight, circle, split-finger, etc...he has every tool to be a front line SP. His only problem is time. With no back issue, he is probably at AAA right now with Winder. I don't know if he will reach the ML, even as a September call up, due to lost time, but I agree with some caution. Stretch him out, push him, promote him, but a whole lost season has to have to affect on an arm that lost expected developmental time as well as just normal use. I think he'll be ready, at worst, early in 2022. Adendum: Duran looked pretty good until his "forearm tightness". Please correct me if wrong, but Canterino and Sands (and Rijo), have been temporarily shelved for the same or similar. We/They actually get lucky and that's all it is....no Enlow season-ending surgery...Duran should make his debut yet this year to get his feet wet. Sands could easily join Balazovic in St Paul and Canterino would have a shot. Rijo and Vallimont...who also had late starts...could easily be a half step behind by finishing strong at AA.

I am not going to argue numbers that are present. We can debate number metrics, and often do, and there are so many that they can be skewed slightly to argue different points. But not all of Alcala's numbers are great. There. Done. But analysis and projection are simply NOT the only way to evaluate a player, especially a young player still developing. I still believe there is room for they proverbial "eye test" when examing a young ballplayer. And while I haven't watched every game....and have been rather absent of late from game discussions...I've watched Alcala a lot. What I see is an outstanding FB that is nasty, though he misses at times, and an outstanding slider that also misses at times. Yes, he gets a little wild at times. Nobody wants to admit it, as we all want a big, young arm to dominate, but it does take a little while to learn control and just "how to pitch". Any kind of decent 3rd offering should only increase his potential. But IMO, other than a bit more consistency, what I see is a young guy just learning how to finish off batters and an inning at times. I've seen Alcala lay an egg to the first hitter, and then set the opponent down. I've seen him, a few times, get 2 outs and look dominate and then allow a big hit with those 2 outs. The NUMBERS don't show a talented arm really close to dominating, but the EYE shows you that a little more time and consistency you might have a really good arm in the pen. I have a lot of faith he's going to be good to great in the very near future.

Just sticking to the OP due to basic principal and because I worked today and spent the evening talking Twins with my father so no time to read and address all the posts here...at least not yet...lol. Tom, you are 100% right with everything you laid out. And you are also 100% wrong as well. HUH?! How can that be? Simply because 2020 is still casting a shadow over 2021 and there is another, potential, cloud hanging over 2022. The simple truth is we are so in the dark as to what other franchises are thinking. There is every reason for a contending team to look at a healthy Pineda...with another couple starts to show he's BACK...and offer something at least decent back. Same with Cruz. I mean, we're only talking half a season, but we're also talking about a real difference maker for a run. So who is willing and able to step forward? Happ is LH and breathing with a good history and a good 1st month in 2021. A couple solid starts before the deadline increases his value, and teams will be interested, but he's not going to bring anything special back. Does any contending team need a true SS? I just don't know if Simmons has value right now. Robles has been pretty good for most of the year until the Twins pitched him 4 consecutive days. Suddenly he looked like a mediocre middle guy after that. So what's his value in trade vs keeping or re-signing? Funny how Aaron and John were talking in their latest podcast how the Twins were at the epicenter of the trade market. They could move some expiring contracts and get what they can, OR, just auction off almost anyone and everyone. But then you look at a list of about 8-10 guys you start to wonder why in hell you'd do that because you'd have a good team if you kept most of them. Barring a surprise offer, the Twins just aren't going to do much or get much. The decision they have to make is gaining a couple A level prospects with some potential...think another Rijo arm...OR, grab a bullpen arm at AA or AAA who was a failed SP making the transition to RP with some upside. Think an Alcala type. Sorry, but I'd take the BP options vs a low A flier because I trust the FO draft strategy and the good looking arms in the system and look for bona-fide, interesting BP arms that could help the next season or two. NOT going to debate at this moment about promotion and health the Twins could have a half dozen arms to audition for 2022. Donaldson is a real key here. Keep him and you still have a quality player offensively and defensively for the next 2yrs who may transition to more 1B and DH. Trade him, give him a chance to play for a contending team, you MIGHT get something back. I'd take a quality RH OF with decent defense or a decent arm in a heartbeat. I might even take back a bag of balls back if it meant salary relief for 2022 and beyond. But he still has value. So if you have to pay something like $25-30M to make a trade, do you really gain enough $ savings/value to make the deal worthwhile? Other than Donaldson, I think the Twins trading will be small, understated, and we will hope for a decent arm of some sort, or decent RH hitting OF. The biggest reward, as hard as it is to digest, is advancing what we have and auditioning them all to get ready for 2022 and beyond. The re-tool is already taking place. And despite W/L how much fun could it be watching Larnach, AK, Jeffers, Gordon, Ober, Winder, Duran (hopefully), Miranda and others the rest of the year? I don't WANT to trade Cruz or Donaldson. These guys are GOOD. But one is probably not coming back next year no matter. And one is good enough to help a team get over the hump offensively and defensively. Hello Mets! I'm actually OK if Donaldson stays because he has value. But I'm also OK if he's gone for $ relief. My only question is where does $ relief start and end that makes sense?

Was listening to the pre-game on the way home tonight and a national writer, Matt "something"...sorry I was driving...spoke about the quality of Rogers. After the 2018 season he wrote an article about the best RP nobody knew, Rogers of course. And the conversation continued about how this season in particular, he was one of the top RP facing high stress situations, The point is simple Rogers is elite, or borderline elite depending on your perspective, for some time now, But he's being used as a fireman and not as a closer. We've all seen this transition taking place for some time now, A "closer" facing the bottom of an order and getting a save is a mirage of performance. NOT that a "closer" only faces that, but it adds to the narrative that what we perceive as a traditional closer doesn't have the same value we used to assign. (Agents hate that of course). The pen needs to be re-built. But Rogers is elite, Duffey has been good, but not great in 2021, Do you want to bet against him at this point? I don't. Everyone thinks we should trade Robles for whatever we can get. But until be was asked to pitch four straight days recently, he's been doing quite well. Don't be lazy, look at his career before 2020. Look at his numbers this season, velocity and K rate, and understand he got rode hard a week ago, and then tell me he's just an easy FA replacement in 2022. I am IN on keeping him and re-signjng him. Unfortunately for the season, this is the perfect opportunity for Alcala to gain experience and trust. And if you've watched the games he's pitched in, you can see he is just "so close" to figuring it out. Building a quality BP isn't as easy as we wish it would be. Think about the Tigers a few years back when they had an amazing rotation and deadly lineup but couldn't win it all because their pen was aweful. The 2019 Twins BP was solid early with duct tape and bailing wire, Better performance and a good trade gave them a solid pen. Holdovers and development and surprises gave them one of the best pens in 2020. Trade or FA, I want a RH arm on par with Rogers. Trade or FA, I want an arm equivalent to Duffey and Robles. My arguement has been, and continues to be, the Twins have a 4 man base to build on for 2022. Add 2 more arms to that, you have a pen needing only depth. Matthew Lenz has pointed out Thielbar shouldn't be dismissed. I agree, But at some point, I have to wonder about age. And I laugh when I read comments about a number of 30yr old RP in the pen. Why would you expect to have a bullpen made up of 20yr olds unless you were re-building? Keep the 4 you trust. (My opinion). Add 2 more arms that actually have experience and production. See if Thielbar can do it for another year. See if Stashak can come back healthy and be what he has looked like early. See if Farrell is REALLY a solid middle man. Keep promoting some arms that have a chance, Moran, Neff, Moran, etc. But my arguement remains the same...and I'll accept if I turn out to look foolish...there is a basis for a 2022 pen if we hold strong, and just build on what we have. *Haven't even touched on Thorpe and Smeltzer as a LH option.

He has produced good to amazing numbers in his career thus far when healthy. Right now his biggest opponent isn't just gaining greater command/control, it's opportunity after not having a 2020 season, like everyone else. We're all frustrated by what we perceive as slow promotions this year. But let's not forget a late start and milb is just approaching their mid point, (I'm still objecting sternly to adding playoffs at the last minute as opposed to having another couple of weeks in the season for everyone)! The Twins have started to promote the last week or so. They need to be aggressive and do more, and this includes Moran amongst others. The Twins are signing fliers for St Paul right now due to injury and promotion. But AA Wichita has a couple guys that need to be up tomorrow. Really, who is blocking them except a couple fliers and a couple journeyman. Get him up!

Absolutely 100% agree extra games for everyone is far more important than playoffs after there being no 2020 season. Just a no-brainer. A last moment decision that negatively affects the players? Who's running this show the NCAA?

Just tossing this out there, but not so very long ago there was a lot of talk concerning all the changes in approach in regard to coaching in the milb system. The NEW approach is to treat each hitter as an individual and not just coach/preach a single unified approach. I believe it was Plouffe who spoke candidly about being held back by the approach of the system until he just broke free on his own and suddenly found success. Kepler and Sano were developed initially by the previous FO and previous system. Have they just not been developed to full ability because of this? Is it too late to change/develop their approach? Did Rowson make that big of a difference in 2019? Maybe he did, And I'm not asking for anyone to lose their job. And I'm not saying the current hitting coaches are poor/incompetent in any way. But maybe they are just the wrong guys for this team? I'm not saying Kepler or Sano will suddenly transform again to what we saw in 2019 with a coaching change. Maybe Rowson benefited from a fluke season? Or, maybe, did he really make a difference? If the latter is true, then a change of some sort may need to take place. When you have success as a team and get raided for coaches, it sucks but it's also a compliment to your organization. Can the FO find another Rowson difference maker? (Still assuming he was a real catalyst). I'm spitballing here but think there might be something here.

I think the point we need to clarify is Kepler as a "4th" OF. Nobody is stating he should be a true "4th OF" who only fills in. We, at least me, is really saying he'd be a 3/4 time starting OF who is also a solid CF to fill in for Buxton, thus allowing him to have the versatility of being a sort of 4th OF. In that context, his contract is absolutely not too much. What the Twins need is a RH OF bat that they can trust to be quality offensively and at least decent defensively. Now who is that guy? Could it be Rooker, Garlik or Refsnyder? I don't know. Maybe it's a small trade acquisition or a FA. And TWINFAN nails it when he states Kepler starting/playing in about 120 games provides good defense and could hit something like .260ish with 20+ HR and 75ish RBI. Picture a 2022 OF of Kirilloff splitting time at 1B, Larnach, Buxton, and Kepler with a 5th guy who is RH and can actually perform. (Yes, Arraez can figure in to LF as well). I'm really, really good with that despite that 5th guy being a mystery right now. Hypothetically, the new and improved Refsnyder would be perfect. Someone who could hit, have some pop/power and play solid/good defense. In this hypothetical, he could also be another CF option. Again, understand I'm using Refsnyder as a hypothetical example only. For him to be in the mix AT ALL he would need to get healthy soon and play out the rest of the season....with obvious regression involved....and begin to prove his new and improved self is real. But I'm just using him as an example for a multi-purpose RH hitting OF who could provide depth and flexibility and versatility. I would prefer this option, I think it's the smartest option.

Kaat wasn't available in my area because of the KC blackout so that was a bummer. I love listening to him. I don't know that the Maeda we had in 2020 is OUR Maeda, but what we have seen until today is also NOT the Maeda that pitched for the Dogers previously. Nor is the Maeda we've seen in 2021 the Maeda we saw in ST. So as far as I'm concerned, we still have a GOOD Maeda and he probably will be the rest of this season and next year. The bite is, like so much of this team/season, he wasn't himself the first half. Larnach and Kirilloff continue to impress. If you don't think Polanco and Arraez are good players and part of the future, then I'm not sure what you've been watching. Or are you only looking for the negative? I am NOT proclaiming Ober as the next great Twins pitcher. But the kid has put up video game numbers in the minors with IL stints and a FB that sat in the high 80's and low 90's. He worked very hard in the missed 2020 season to smooth out his mechanics to provide not only even better results, but to keep himself healthy. He reported once that he often didn't feel very good after starts at times. With his height and length, mechanics may be even more important. His hard work seems to have paid off as I've heard ZERO reports of injury and his velocity is up. Please drop the "extend him" arguements as his previous max IP was somewhere around 90. He missed ALL and everything in 2020 and only has a few GS in AAA before now. The Twins have been very aggressive with his promotion but are also being protective of his arm and development. They are brining him along with the idea of being part of 2022. And if you've actually watched him pitch, you can see something to be at least mildly excited about. Jax is a pitch to contact pitcher with some decent stuff, good control, who has some ceiling, but has only been a full time pitcher starting in 2019, maybe 2018.. So he has very little full milb season time until a little under half a year at AAA before being promoted early to the ML due to necessity. Around some BAD innings, he's had some good performances as well. Right now, today, with an extremely SSS size in the minors, I'd have to say his ceiling is a 4th or 5th SP who probably fits best as a middle RP/swing man. He was drafted as a flier with his AF commitment and is behind others of his age. Doesn't mean there isn't a usable arm there, just getting a late start. For those who blast the Twins for being slow to promote, I would tell you to look closer at Ober and re-consider Jax's situation. They haven't been slow with Winder either if you check things out. Drafted in 2018 and missing all of 2020, he's at AAA right now and should be with the Twins sometime the second half this season. You want Barnes to get a shot? Maybe he deserves one despite being a softer tossing pitch to contact type. And I'm NOT blasting that type of pitcher. They can be good to outstanding. But they have to have that SOMETHING to make it. Does Barnes? IDK. But he was drafted in 2017, one year before Winder. He has 2yrs of milb time and a brief stint in 2020 with the St Paul reserve team. He may get his shot but I'm just not really encouraged by his future outcome. Long way of saying the Twins aren't being slow in promoting good young arms, but 2020 and injuries have curtailed plans. And while I fully believe Winder and a HEALTHY (hopefully) Duran will be up the second half, nobody should fall asleep on Ober at this point. Don't dismiss the potential due to protecting him. They are doing so with a plan in place.

I've been a fan and supporter of his since day one and have remained hopeful of what we would see after 2019. I didn't exactly expect him to continue mash in the same way but thought we would get something close as the new normal for Max going forward. Alas, it just may not be. You can call me an apologist if you want, but I give Kepler, and about anyone else who had a poor 2020, a free pass. There were so many variables in such a weird and short season that calling 2020 an "aha" season just isn't right or fair. But no question his production has been a real bummer. And unexpected IMO. Part of the reason I just don't want to pencil Kirilloff in at 1B permanately is he's also a solid OF and I want flexibility in case Kepler is traded or his role changes. I'm OK with the right trade a good trade if one is available, I believe the entire FO and staff are going to be looking at changes from tweaking the roster to tweaking certain approaches to maybe tweaking the coaching staff. (Hitting instructors). Max is still a bounceback candidate and I sure wouldn't want to sell low on him. I agree that a good, solid RH bat to complement what we have on hand could be really smart and allow Kepler to be a part time starter and back up CF while still not being expensive. And maybe that's the best approach to take in order to maximize the roster and not sell low.

NCAA is full of crap and I can barely stand them any longer. I am in favor of the NLI for college athletes, but all they had to do was just be smart enough to set up guidelines to make it work without confusion or any feared risk if escalating earnings or any "monopoly" larger schools could further develop. Instead, they asked the system to do the work they could have and should have and look like bumbling fools yet again. I've heard the counter-arguement that this is not only good for the athletes, but smaller schools and conferences could actually benefit as a number of prospects may want to go somewhere where they could be "the guy" sooner than being a 5th string player initially. We'll see how it all works out. An expanded playoff format may also create a better balance across the landscape. And I'm not going to argue one way or another, just stating the NCAA is SUPPOSED to be intelligent enough to DO THEIR JOB and provide answers and frameworks to make things like this work. I am also very disturbed about their lack of definition for "super seniors" that were granted an extra year of eligibility due to covid-2020. The powers that be in FCS have already stated that those super seniors will not count against scholarship numbers for 2022 so schools do not have to alter recruiting efforts to account for them. They did this weeks ago but as of today, July 3rd, the NCAA hasn't been smart enough to follow suit. And this only further complicates the fact that most D1 schools are going to have about 40 red shirt freshmen in 2021. So they still have to figure this out as well, but can't seem to just make the obvious first ruling. Then there is the transfer portal debacle. Over time, for many reasons and factors, things will eventually balance out. But in football alone, there was approximately 2,000 kids in the transfer portal looking for homes and only about 130 D1 schools to hopefully choose from. How many of those schools even have room to bring in more than 1 or 2 kids? So the rest have to drop a level, go to Junior College, walk on somewhere, or maybe never continue their career and education at all. But all the NCAA did was give everyone a free year to move. Where is the interest for the well being of the athletes? Part of the answer is really simple but they were just too misguided and blind to see the most obvious solution. Despite the single season maximum recruiting numbers in place, if you lose 2 or 3 or 4 kids to the portal, then you have the go ahead to bring in the same number of transfer kids to provide them a home. I continue to be disgusted by the NCAA in general and it's only a matter of time until the power conferences just take over.

This season reminds me so much of 2018 when things just didn't go as planned/hoped/expected and the FO didn't blow things up, but they began a re-tool to get ready for 2019 and moved Pressly and Escobar for some really nice young talent. I wasn't crazy about either move, despite the return, because I felt strongly the Twins were in good position for 2019. IIRC correctly, Escobar was a pending FA but Pressly was not. So Pressly was the guy I really wanted to keep. And PLEASE, I am NOT trying to re-hash who won trades! My point, however, is that I feel almost the same way today as I did then. There is work to be done for 2022. But some "blow it up" option is not needed and rather ridiculous. Nor do i expect the FO to do so. Donaldson is not why this season crashed and burned. Despite a few unusual miscues, he's played his normally great defense and his numbers are very solid. And he's been largely healthy and dependable and in the lineup except for an early IL stint. But if they can move him, it frees up $ for other areas to address. The Twins made a big and exciting investment. It didn't work. But they took the shot. So now, maybe they can gain financial flexibility get at least a little something back, Donaldson goes to a contending team, and the Mets get some offense that they desperately need. Everyone wins. Considering the $ available to the Mets, and how determined and aggressive their ownership seems to be I'm not sure how concerned they are about a payroll ceiling. Might be a bit of posturing. Unless the Twins have to throw in a bunch of bank to make this happen, I'm OK with the trade. But with $ going out and little coming back then you have to wonder if the trade makes sense from the Twins perspective as well. Kirilloff, Larnach, Jeffers and possibly Gordon have arrived as part of the next wave. There remains a very good chance that with 3 months, left we still see Duran, Winder, Miranda, and maybe a couple pen arms who get some experience and get their feet wet for 2022. And sorry, just like the disappointing 2018, and changes needing to be made this roster is not devoid of talent. While only early rumors at this point, considering how this potential trade makes sense for both sides, I give these rumors at least semi-stable legs. It really makes a ton of sense if neither side has to give up too much, $ for the Twins and prosoects for the Mets.

IF Donaldson is moved, IMO, it does NOT signify a bad move by the Twins. Don't we all know you pass out at least semi-inflated contracts to big name veterans? You are always paying for the first couple of years and then paying for hope the final years, For the most part, Donaldson has been available and played and performed well this year. And if this season had gone as expected, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, But when a hopeful season crashes against the rocks, you have to look for changes/future options. IF Donaldson is moved, the Twins still went all in for some help. That can't be discounted. And trading him to a contender does Donaldson a solid as well. So no black eye or egg on the face. JD is not the reason the season went in the tank. And he will have to replaced as well. But the $ to work with gives greater flexibility going forward. I do find it interesting that the speculation tossed around in this thread that the Mets seem to make the most sense for all involved could be a real possibility.

Was really hoping to watch Ober with my dad tonight do what he has mostly done thus far, show potential while getting his feet wet in a rather aggressive promotion. Alas, it wasn't to be. And I'm not down on the kid. I still see something there as a back end starter with real potential. Just a young kid with a bad night. This season is about him growing, learning and adapting and getting ready for a possible future. The same can't be said about Shoemaker. By his own admission he hasn't pitched well. I don't like anyone to lose their job, but he's already guaranteed to be paid his $2M for this year. Thank you for trying. Thank you for taking one for the team tonight to save the pen for the next game. Best of luck in 2022 and the rest of your career and life. But it's time to move on. I mean, literally, the Twins could promote anyone from AAA or AA and get the same results as tonight and probably better. It's just time for both parties to go their separate ways. Give someone younger who at least has a CHANCE to be part of the future a shot/opportunity. Solid flier idea. It didn't work. Move on.

Small addendum, which kinda fits and kinda doesn't since we're talking the future of the infield without Donaldson, Palacios needs to be up at AAA SOON to see if there is something there.

Assuming Donaldson stays healthy and productive, I think, unfortunately for this premise, the time to actually trade him is next season. At that time, he's only owed a season and a half plus the POTENTIAL buyout. Even if the Twins end up having to still toss in some $, everyone is on the hook for less. The problem is, of course, banking on his performance and what if the Twins rebound in 2022 and are in contention? I just don't know if he's tradeable right now without the Twins tossing in about $20M or so. At that point, have they really gained anything? Or more to the point, did they get anything worthwhile back and does the $ savings provide enough relief that the trade actually helps? But let's speak hypothetically about a trade. Because the Mets need help offensively, because they don't have a stud 3B, because they have $, because their ownership is trying to win AND make a statement AND trying to grab the headlines from the Yankees, a move to the Mets makes the most sense and you just try to get something useful back along with the $ relief. And let's not forget it's almost a foregone conclusion the NL will have the DH starting in 2022. In regard to perception of the Twins, I see no downside. They were willing to pony up the big contract for Donaldson. They tanked 2021 and sent him to a contending team. There is no black eye there. Arraez is OK at 3B, a few bad plays, a few good ones. He might even get better playing there almost daily. Hopefully, by September at least, Miranda gets his feet wet. Polanco plays 2B and maybe a little SS. Gordon continues to play some 2B as well as CF, (maybe LF??) but also sees time at SS. You HAVE to see what you have in him there. Cripes, he's spent over half his milb career there and several games/innings during ST. In this scenario, IMO, you KEEP Simmons. I'm just not sure there is a contending team that has a NEED at SS, barring injury, and you will need a SS in 2022. Keep him for now and re-examine the market next offseason. ALL hypothetical because I just don't know if Donaldson is tradeable right now...and that's NOT a shot at his play. But this really does seem to be the best trade potential outcome for all involved.

The single biggest problem facing the Twins NOW is injuries in the minors. 2020 set back player development for everyone, but has clearly affected the development of pitchers they were really hoping would be part of 2021 and beyond. So now you have to rebound and re- set for 2022. The good news is we are seeing the future of Larnach, Kirilloff and Jeffers and even Gordon getting ML time for the future. Hopefully the same for Gordon. Not to mention the development of Alcala as a BP piece and Ober as a possible end of the rotation option. (He's looked good but is being protected for obvious reasons). Re-tooling on the fly has gone out the window, unfortunately. (Which was the original plan). But we are still seeing some exciting things between the blurred lines of wins and loses in a lost season. Hopefully, we are going to see Winder and Duran along with a couple pen options. Miranda will also see some ML time, but unless I'm mistaken, MLB in their short sighted wisdom is still limiting late season promotions. The difference between 2017 and now is the core players were just being established. Unfortunately, the 2021 Twins are more "out of it " compared to 2017. Don't give up! But be real. If you can get ANYTHING for a couple expiring contracts then do so. At some point, you have to just say you have a losing season. But it doesn't have to be a LOST season. Remember the kids already here and the kids pushing the envelope for tomorrow. Boston, for example, was supposed to be trash this year. Why can't we continue to play and audition our talented prospects and promote a few more and just make a few smart moves offseason to get ready for 2022? Even with losses we all expect, there's still a lot to like on this roster.

Just super happy to see all the promotions! Especially Winder and Miranda! Now, we need to get a couple more of those Wichita bullpen arms up to St Paul. After 2 poor years with Tampa at AA, I can see maybe being a little cautious with Palacios, still only 24yo old. But isn't it about time to see him at AAA? Disappointed in Sammons thus far, but slightly surprised to see him go back to Wichita. It seemed he was throwing at least as well if not better with the Saints than he was with the Surge. But then again, Schulfer and a healthy Sands are probably more ready for AAA at this point. Unless I am missing something, despite a rash of injuries to our top rotation prospects, isn't Enlow the only one out for the year? Even if they all miss a few weeks, really, really hoping Duran, Sands, Canterino and Rijo are only "dinged" and still get a couple mkre months of 2021 development. Really important to be careful but equally important they get real time this year along with Balazovic and Vallimont to move forward. Predicting now Winder makes his ML debut before the season is done. Duran should as well as long as he's healthy in a couple weeks. Results might not matter as much as just getting the experience and getting their feet wet. Agree I'd really like an update on Marco Raya but also Alerick Soularie. Any updates Seth? Honestly, Raya is the most intriguing 2020 draftee to me.

The Twins FO doesn't need me to defend them. And I won't. But hindsight 20/20 is very easy to blame. The Twins spent a couple roster spots on "pitching help" for the 2021 season for a team that was supposed to contend and they wanted depth. Smart! They left Badoo off the 40 man roster,young and coming off missed time. Who honestly expected him to be drafted and kept and actually perform well? Go buy a lottery ticket if you can say yes. I liked Wade a lot. I wanted to keep him. I thought be brought some potential and skill set the Twins were lacking. But when I had to compare a more experienced LH OF with better numbers and more experience, I had to go with Cave when the trade was made, Anderson I have no comment on at this time, sorry, without digging in to the ML and milb rosters 2yrs ago. I HATED losing a low level, talented prospect like Badoo. I'm OK losing a 4th OF prospect. I'm OK losing a journeyman RP, except, young enough and stats enough to tell me the FO didn't look close enough and probably protected someone not as good. Very few teams would have protected Baddoo, we just got screwed on that one. Period! But with a serious 40 man crunch coming forward, they are going to have to make 5-7 really tough choices. Is that a bad thing? It means the Twins have enough young talent to allow for such tough choices. Let's hope we're smart enough to make the RIGHT choices!

For a moment let's let the disappointment and vitriol of 2021 subside to examine 2022 and maybe even the remainder of 2021 and look to the future. We all know the fluid and crazy nature of a ML pen and RP in general. Honestly, I'm not sure it's that different than a rotation. For most teams that are successful, you have a PRIME arm and at least one close to it. It doesn't matter these days about a "closer" and "set-up" man because even though things are similar to the past, we've also see a revolution in how the bullpen is built and used across baseball. Rogers is only 30yo and has shown everyone that his "bad luck" in 2020 might have been real. Duffey hasn't been what we hoped for this season, but is also only 30yo and has looked a lot like his former self as of late. Robles was a key to the pen, IMO, when I thought the season was going to go in a different direction. He may have started a little slow, but has been QUALITY if not outstanding for some time now. He imploded recently, but was also over used for a stretch as well. Also only 30yo and still bringing high velocity and good numbers overall, does trade value actually bring more value than a re-sign? Alcala is "growing up" before our eyes. YES, he's young, inexperienced, still developing and has been a frustrating victim to the HR ball. [All the more maddening when you see his stuff and allowing HR when he seems to be cruising]. But we can all see the development taking place. A ML BP in today's game needs 8 guys with another 2-4 sitting at AAA to fill in to play the modern day roster game. Just how good is Thielbar really? So far, surprisingly good but not outstanding. But solid. Just how good could a healthy Stashak be after what we saw in 2019-20? (Hopeful) How about Thorpe getting healthy after all the hard work he put in to getting ready for 2021 and transitioning full time to the pen? The Twins made some smart gambles for pen depth and help for 2021 that have simply NOT turned out. Farrell may or may not turn out to be a surprise solid middle relief option. Hamilton may or may not turn out to be a decent flier with potential. The best rotation arms in the system excluding Duran, are all in AA or lower, for the most part. But I'm focused on the pen right now. We have some hope for a couple live arms like Cano, Moran, Neff, Mason, etc. And if Colina hadn't fallen under the "2021 curse" of injuries he would probably already be on the roster with Alcala as a top heat throwing youngster with potential. So no doubt the FO will have to prove their supposed smarts again and re-build the pen yet again. But if they keep Robles, aren't they half way there already? I'm solely looking at the pen in 2022 right now. Is there a base in place to have a quality pen moving forward?

Honestly, not sure commentening now vs waiting until this series makes sense. And I have to agree with Roger that the draft has snuck up on us and it's always so hard to project the ML draft. Harder than any other sport. I still feel the baseball draft is more the BPA than any sport. That being saidm i think tbe FO has been somewhat unfairly criticized for their draft approach since being placed in charge. It's easy to say we are overloaded with corner power bats. But would you want to not have Kirilloff and Larnach right now? How about Wallner in a couple years to replace Kepler? They HAVE drafted infielders. A few in 2018 and a bunch in 2019. Steer, Howard, Julien, Cavaco, and Mack. I'm sure I've missed one or two. While it's true they haven't drafted a ton of pitchers early they have drafted a number of pitchers, especially college pitchers. Canterino and Sands are the highest profile draftees to be sure, and they each look pretty solid early in their careers. And just not going list player after player, but there are some interesting arms with solid results so far drafted in 2018-19. Most of whom have questions, obviously, from only having a season to a season and a half at most professionally thus far. My surprise has been the short 2020 draft when supposedly there was real depth for pitching available and we chose ONE. Now Raya, 4th round HS selection, might be my favorite choice they made. No offense to the other choices or their potential, but did they get "too cute" with their selections? Did they think they were sneaking in some good position players while everyone was looking too hard at pitching and get a few steals? Maybe. Jeffers wasn't supposed to be picked where he was and look how that's turned out so far. But unless quality pitching just isn't there when the Twins select, I really hope they add a couple upside arms early in this draft. There IS real depth of talent in the system right now. Unfortunately, a missed season and a rash of injury is setting back their combined development by a season or more right now. And you should never ignore available talent. But I'm really hoping for a couple good college arms with projection who could add the the system and create even better depth than we have currently. You need numbers to find your future rotation, but you also need guys who could transition to the pen as well.