mikelink45

I can accept your logic and still reject the action. Give me Darvish for three years and I am fine - more and I walk away.

I remember the 87 world champions - number 1 Viola, number 2 Blyleven - number 3 Les Straker. We have some time to develop more and better arms.

Nope, we should just recognize that we also signed Corriea, Pelfrey and Nolasco. Batting 25% is not that great, but I am happy to have Ervin.

That's okay, I understand your frustration with my stand, but I remain a FA skeptic.

In 1961 Minnesota joined the ranks of Major League Baseball and the National Football League. It might be hard to believe today, but before that there were no Twins and Vikings in the state history, unless you buy the story of the Rune Stone in Alexandria and those Vikings might have tossed rocks, but not footballs. There has never been another year like this in Minnesota sports history and happily I can say I was there – both as a high school sophomore at Central High School in Minneapolis and as an usher in Met Stadium! I loved the Met, the big erector set in the distant community of Bloomington. This was the big leagues for both football and baseball (shortly after we added the Soccer team – the Kicks) and it was in this rural suburb that we planted the seeds for this part of our community lore. Of course, they were not called the Bloomington Twins or the Bloomington Vikings. It might have been appropriate, but then Wold Chamberlain – our massive international airport (just joking) was also located nearby and no one thought to call it the Bloomington airport. Of course, we had a sports history before this. In 1960 the Minnesota Gophers were named the number one college football team in the country – yup, Alabama did not get that one. Playing under Murray Warmath with players like Sandy Stevens at QB (he then played in Canadian football league) we were at the top of big time college football and then we went to the big game – the Rose Bowl, where we set the precedence for the soon to arrive Minnesota Vikings - but lost the biggest game of the year to Washington 17 – 7. In the year of the Vikings and Twins the Gophers ranked 6th in the nation and corrected their previous loss by winning the Rose Bowl against UCLA 21 – 3. There was no NHL team in the cities (that still amazes me), but that did not mean that there were no sports memories to be had. When I asked a friend, John Helland who retired from working at the state capitol about his impressions of that time he wrote, “Hey, Mike, here's what I remember: Gopher baseball was great, winning the NCAA championship in 1960 over So. Cal. Jim Rantz, longtimeTwin's farm club director, and Tom Moe, also a good football player and much later Athletic Director, were on that team. They also won four years later. Some Gopher hockey players, incl. Herb Brooks, almost made the U.S. hockey team (he was the last team cut). The Saints vs. Millers was a great hockey rivalry then, but don't remember names of good players. Jim Beattie was starting his pro boxing career as an up and coming heavyweight. This is going back almost 60 years now, so just a kid. The 1960 U.S. Olympic team featured Minnesotan’s John Mayasich, Jack McCarten, the goalie, and Warroad's Christian brothers who later developed iconic hockey sticks.” We were excited about our sports legacy and we still had a professional team – The Minneapolis Lakers – in 1960. But Mikan retired – he was so good they changed the court – enlarging the lane so that he would not get every rebound. And we were champions – 5 times in 6 years with a roster of NBA Hall of Famers. In the 1958/59 season we drafted Elgin Baylor and the future looked bright. Sitting in the Minneapolis Armory where many games were played there were no bad seats. Unlike the Timberwolves stadium where you need binoculars in the upper deck to watch seven-foot players, at the Armory the players towered over us and it was almost like being on the court. It was great, but attendance was not – how many can you get in the Armory, so in 1960 just as we were getting excited about our new teams – the Lakers were moved – to the west coast, to Los Angeles, to a city that does not even know what a Lake is! We would have been depressed, but the Twins were coming. There were minor league teams still playing – the Minneapolis Millers were in Nicollet Stadium, just six blocks from where I lived, until 1956 when they moved to Metropolitan Stadium (who came up with that name for a stadium in the middle of a field in Bloomington?) where they played until 1960. In St Paul, the Saints were the farm team of the Dodgers, who were about to move to the west coast. Who knew then that the Giants would be enticed to move with them. But 1960 would be the last year of this franchise until Mike Veeck and others created the new Saints in independent ball who would play at the same stadium – Midway – that the original Saints used in their final season. In 1958, future Twins manager Gene Mauch was the skipper of the Millers – now a farm team for the Red Sox, having been associated with the Giants for years. Mauch led us to the championship and then we lost the Minor League World Series. We knew that major league baseball was coming, and Horace Stoneham of the Giants played us for country bumpkins, promising to move here and using the leverage to get to San Francisco. Our final year was pretty glorious – Carl Yastrzemski was here as was future Twin, Al Worthington. This left an opening for a team which we had no association with – the Washington Senators, and their owner/GM – Calvin Griffith. But who cared – this team, so famous for the saying – Washington DC, first in war, last in the American League – was coming. Time to learn who they were. From Senators to Twins – what a transition. Some bonus player named Harmon Killebrew showed up and so did some Latin players like Camilo Pascual and Pedro Ramos. The Pirates were the reigning champions – they were FAMILY – we were in baseball heaven. In the meantime, something else was brewing – the NFL was going to put a team in the state the same year and the same stadium. It was Viking time. And we would be playing outside like real Vikings. Norm Van Brocklin would be our coach and we would have a rookie QB named Frank Tarkington and no one expected him to do anything. As an expansion team, we were expected to be the tackling dummies for the rest of the league. The champions were from Philadelphia – a team called the Eagles, but we knew we would get even with them someday - we hope. April 11, 1961 the Twins played the very first Major League Game in Minnesota. There were 39,615 fans – a sellout, and I was an usher. We were so new to this that we still did not know who those players were, but they were ours, so we cheered. Metropolitan stadium with its three decks had never felt the feet of so many people and when they got their coordination together, they would stomp their feet and rock, or should I say – sway, the stadium. Unaccustomed to the rules of the major leagues I remember being booed by thousands of people when I would go to make sure someone was not hurt by a foul ball. They were sure I was there to take the ball back! We loved the fresh air, the breeze coming in from right field, the uniforms and excitement of the game, even if we had no idea who manager Cookie Lavagetto was. We had Billy Martin, a future manager at 2B, Harmon Killebrew a future HOF player at 1B, Zoilo Versalles at SS, and Bob Allison in the OF. With Pascual and Ramos was Jack Kralick and Jim Kaat in the rotation. This was so heady we hardly noticed that one of our own – Roger Maris – was hitting the baseball out of the park more than anyone in history. Actually, we knew but it was not as important as the fact that we won 70 games! Of course we also lost 90, but who cared, this was the majors and our guy – Harmon had hit 46 home runs. When the season was over the Twins had drawn 1,256,723 fans, the third highest total in MLB and we were in 7th place, not last (10). Now it was Viking time! The Senators were an established team that moved, but the Vikings were an expansion team and they were not supposed to win. After opening with an exhibition in Sioux Falls, SD the team came home to a rousing welcome. Like good Minnesotans, the fans were all on time, the parking lot was full, and the ushers helped people find their seats quickly. It was an excited crowd, but everyone knew we would lose, that is, everyone but Fran Tarkington who had not read that script and came off the bench to replace the wily old vet, George Shaw, and beat the mighty bears 37 – 13 on opening day! For a week we had a perfect record in the NFL. True, we had the Minneapolis Marines and Duluth had the Eskimos, but that ancient history hardly makes a dent in our professional football story, even if the Eskimos had Ernie Nevers, the first Superstar. We got a franchise in the American Football League, but never played a game. The fact that we got awarded this new team meant the NFL (which was not merged with the upstarts) decided to put a team in Minnesota if we gave up that first AFL franchise which subsequently became the Oakland Raiders. The new owners included Ole Haugsrud who had given up the original Duluth team to the league with a provision that he would be allowed ownership in any future NFL team. It took forty years. Playing outside the Viking fans became the new version of the Packers – standing in the cold, breath frozen in the air, a unique sound of clapping gloves, and a rabid excitement that would continue right up today’s softer indoor fans. The opening win shocked everyone, and the roar was similar to the playoff games of the future, but the shock wore off with 7 straight losses and a final 3 – 11 record. Being in the stadium at the end of the season no one minded that we were packed in tightly, it just made us warmer. Thermos’ went from coffee to slightly stronger beverages and the sounds of the stadium faithful echoed across the frozen prairies of Bloomington. An average of 34,586 people attended the games, many of them lopsided contests. Norm Van Brocklin, the ex-quarterback of the Philadelphia Eagles was the grumpy head coach because the quiet man of the north – Bud Grant – would not cancel his contract with the Blue Bombers in the Canadian Football League. Eventually we would get him. I only ushered for one year, but that was enough to create a love for sports that continues today. Only baseball remains with as much passion, but that dates back to my childhood when the only vacation my parents would take was a trip to County Stadium in Milwaukee to watch the Milwaukee Braves in their championship seasons. My career would take me in many directions, including one-year writing for the short-lived Midwest Spectator, a Twin Cities sports publication, and finally into my career in the Outdoor/Environmental Education. Like many people I was moved by the events that I witnessed when I was young and even though I attended all the 1991 world series games at home, nothing will be as lasting as that first night when the sun was setting, and the stadium lights came on, when the green of the stadium grass seemed to turn luminescent and the players uniforms sparkled in the light. There was the smell of the concessions, the sound of the bat, and the collective anticipation that something good was going to happen – something good that would continue for the next 57 years and who knows how long into the future.

I like the idea of players getting a bigger piece of the pie too - especially the minor leaguers who are playing in poor conditions and trying to prove themselves.

Desperation?

How about the fact that the product is not worth the investment? Give us better FA and we get more action. Do you want to have Moustakis? Most teams have a player who is already as good as he is - one year does not make a star. Lynn, Cobb, Darvish, Arrieta would be a good rotation, but they have enough flaws that the asking price as the best of a yuck group is not worth paying unless you are willing to throw your money away in year three. Martinez - bust out year or a bust next year. Show me more. Hosmer - the phantom gold glove - he is a younger version of Mauer and did not have years as a catcher to push up his value. I'tl wait for another crop.

No - I understand what you are saying, but I am not excited by these either. See what I posted for Spycake. No team does better by taking someone else's player than they do by developing their own. I prefer a Mauer contract for someone we develop than a Pujols contract for someone else's star that is about to fade.

I can only state my beliefs and as you have seen I try to find whatever I can to substantiate them so let me offer this blog - https://www.fangraphs.com/community/be-wary-of-long-term-deals-for-free-agents/ The title is beware of long term free agents - to which I say - AMEN brother. "The overall numbers for the group though was not promising. Whether this is due to many of these players aging which could be highly likely, or just never getting settled with a new ballclub. It seems teams looking at signing Free Agents to deals of 3 years or longer should not expect much out of the players." Or the next report that says, "Seven players signed deals worth at least $100 million in guaranteed salaries. Eight players signed contracts that gave them the right to opt-out of their deal at some point and re-enter the free agent market if their value goes up. Middle relievers and bench players made multi-year deals a standard for players who used to have to go year to year. This past winter was, by any definition, a league-wide spending spree. But as we approach the end of the first year of these contracts, there seems to be one developing theme; the teams that spent the most money in free agency probably wish they hadn’t. With only a couple of exceptions, the high-end range of last winter’s free agent class have been soul-crushing disappointments. Let’s just get right to some numbers. Here are the 13 players who signed for at least $70 million over the winter, and how they’re performing this season." https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-so-far-disastrous-crop-of-2016-free-agents/ This is where I stand. Since I cannot influence the Twins I only stand on the side lines and say - don't do it.

The trade of Blake Griffin from the Clippers to the Pistons is a reminder of how debilitating these maximum contracts can be to teams in any sport.

Don't forget the all star veteran leadership team - Hunter, Cuddyer, Kaat, Morneau...that is now part of the Twins front office.

If you project Vargas' numbers over a full season his HR total matches Napoli, Bautista, and Holliday. Cheaper, younger and better batting average with the same number of HR. The choice is easy for me. Fourth outfielder would be Granite for me because I value defense very high. I really have a broken record on this years FA class. NO - No - No. But then, the major league clubs are saying the same thing. This is not a great year for FA and they need to reduce their costs to sign new deals.

I would be happy with a 2 -3 year Darvish deal, but I think it will be twice that long. If the Twins want to take the plunge I am in no position to oppose it, but I will remain skeptical of his value long term. I see our young players peaking in 3 years, not this year, and when they do they will be really good and I want a pitching staff at that point that matches their bats and play in the field. Only Dozier and Mauer are on the otherside of that curve. We have so many stats showing the age 27-28 years are peak value for players and I think that will be true for our Twins. We might have some current players off the roster, a few players like Rooker and Lewis on it, but we should really be a good team for a nice 3 - 5 year run. Will Yu be there? And if he is, will his contract block someone else who should be in the rotation at that time?

I am sure I am coming off as a Darvish hater - I am not. I think he is overrated, about to start his career slide - Arrieta too. And I do not want him signed for more than three years. I have enjoyed all the debates and counter arguments. Now I am anxious like the rest of you to see where he ends up and then it will be two years before my apprehensions can be tested.

30 teams - 100 prospects. If we have three on the list we are equal with the league when we have more than that we have some real value in the system. Six is an excellent showing. All of these observers know more than I do, but I am pleased with how we rank.

In a historical basis, which is something I particularly enjoy, this era of HR and K affects how we compare modern and past performers. Do pitchers with a high K rate in this era deserve to be seen as better than the historic pitchers? Look at this chart to see the Strike outs per year in Baseball - http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/histrk4.shtml This chart only goes through 2013 when there were 36,710 strikeouts in MLB - almost half and half NL and AL which makes no sense with the DH in AL and pitchers batting in the NL. Inn 2003 there were 30,801 strike outs 83% of the 2013 total. In 1993 there were 26,310 - 72% of the 2013 total. The year I graduated from HS - 1963 there were 18,773 strike outs - 51% of 2013. In 2017 there were over 40,000 whiffs. ​So are the pitchers better? Are the batters just swinging for the fences. Have people believed the nonsense that a K is no worse than a put out? How does a pitcher in the year I was born - 1945 compare with todays pitchers when the MLB total for strikeouts was 8000? ​Saying the pitchers strikeout rate is better than a pitcher from the past does not make him better. But it does point out that a pitcher like Nolan Ryan with 5700+ Ks in an early era was really amazing. In 1973 Ryan struck out 383 batters - there were 10,507 strike outs in the American League that year. He was responsible for 3.6% of the leagues strikeouts. Last year Chris Sale had an amazing year with 307 K's! In the AL there were 19,946 strike outs. Sale struck out 1.5% of the league total.

Why haven’t we had a cowboy movie or series about baseball? It did occur in the old and wild west. We know that Bat Masterson and Wyatt Earp refereed boxing matches and Bat Masterson went on to NY to be a sports writer. But who talks about baseball in the old west? Baseball spread throughout the Old West around the late 1840s, and in 1869, the Cincinnati Red Stockings—America’s first professional team—departed westward from St. Louis on a rail tour. In describing their game with the local Eagles the San Francisco Chronicle wrote in terms no modern sports page would use: “It is easy to see why they adopted the Red Stocking style of dress, which shows their calves in all their magnitude and rotundity. Everyone of them has a large and well turned leg and everyone of them knows how to use it. https://truewestmagazine.com/sports-in-the-wild-west/ In 1845 Alexander Joy Cartwright Jr. began to accumulate his reputation that would lead to a dubious place in the baseball HOF. He was among the organizers of the Knickerbocker Base Ball Club, and with some associates published a set of rules and regulations that became the foundation of modern baseball. Cartwright, who had worked as a bank clerk, bookseller and volunteer fireman in New York City, joined the 1849 California Gold Rush and despite rumors did not spread his rules of baseball wherever he went. In Minnesota Territory in 1857 (the year before statehood) Minnesota staked its claim in professional baseball. An organized ball club formed in Nininger City (now a ghost town in Dakota County). During the Civil War, soldiers—mostly Yankees, though some Rebels—played baseball. “The New Orleans boys also carried base balls in their knapsacks,” Will Irwin wrote in a 1909 Collier’s Weekly article. “A few of them found themselves in a Federal prison stockade on the Mississippi. They formed a club.” Union soldier George Putnam recalled that once during a baseball game in Alexandria, La., enemy troops attacked, placing the outfielders in mortal danger. The left fielder and right fielder managed to get back to the dugout, but the Rebels shot and captured the center fielder before the Yankees could repel the attack. At some point in his career famed gambler/lawman Wild Bill Hickok reportedly rooted for the Kansas City Antelopes. Legend has it he even umpired one of their games while wearing a pair of six-shooters. General George Armstrong Custer was a baseball player and fan – his brother was the better player and in the 7th Cavalry was Captain Fredrick Benteen who had played for the St Louis Cyclone club. At that time, for reasons I cannot explain, the game was considered a northerners game, but it really was universal. Not that Benteen’s family could prove it. His father said it was useless and a waste of time and when Benteen went on to a successful union career his father said, “I hope you are killed by the first bullet fired, and that the bullet will be fired by one of your Benteen cousins who will be fighting for our glorious cause!” During the war the game was played both north and south (and by the way was not created by the Union officer Doubleday despite some erroneous rumors. Union Private Alpheris Parker of the 10th Massachusetts wrote “the parade ground has become a busy place with the officers and men playing the baseball game with such ardor that it borders on mania.” Confederate Private Maynard Dial of Virginia wrote “we were playing the bat ball game with such intensity that we didn’t notice the musket fire. All of sudden, the Federals rushed us and we had to jump for our weapons. In so doing we lost the only baseball in camp.” This mania for baseball followed General Custer and his brother Tom Custer who was considered one of the best pitchers in the Union Army. We also know that in 1874 Custer had a baseball team play in SD when he broke the treaty with the Lakota over the Black Hills and came in to the area now known as Custer SD. While in Dakota Territory between 1873 and 1876, the club played other military squads as well as civilian teams. On July 31, 1874, during Lt. Col. George Custer’s Black Hills Expedition, the Fort Lincoln Actives defeated the Fort Rice Athletes, 11–6, at the site of what is now Custer, S.D. “The enlisted men,” according to historian Brian Dippie, “whiled away the long summer day playing a game of baseball—a genuine Black Hills ‘first,’ including a dispute over the umpire’s impartiality.” A fascinating convergence of dates is 1876 where the baseball players of the seventh infantry died at the Little Bighorn in the same year that the National Baseball League was formed. In February of 1876, eight teams left over from the National Association of Professional Baseball Players banded together to form the new league and professional baseball was on its way. To prove the baseball connection, we know that Company H Sargent Joseph McCurry was the Benteen Club’s pitcher and considered the 7th’s best player and was critically wounded and would never play ball again., Private William “Fatty” Williams had signed a contract to play with Pittsburgh at the end of his hitch. http://weeklyview.net/2013/04/18/baseball-and-the-little-bighorn/ Early pro ball could be found in the west in 1884 when the Kansas City Cowboys played in the Union Association. In 1886 a team using the same nickname played a one-year trial in the National League, finishing with just 30 wins and 91 losses (36 of the latter by a single pitcher, Stump Wiedman). The league dumped the Cowboys in favor of the Pittsburgh Alleghenys (today’s Pirates) the next season. “Most baseball played out West in the 19th century remained amateur or semipro, including the barnstorming games of the Nebraska Indians. Founder and promoter Guy W. Green recruited several of his players from the Omaha and Winnebago reservations; nine of the 12 players on his first club in 1897 were Indians. On June 25 of that year the squad traveled to Lincoln and trounced the University of Nebraska team, 18–12, before an enthusiastic crowd. Through 1914 (Green left in 1907) the Nebraska Indians played across the country, often calling to mind the atmosphere of a Wild West show. The team was good, too, reportedly posting a record of 1,237 wins, 336 losses and 11 ties.” http://www.historynet.com/baseball-in-the-west-2.htm “In the coal-mining town of Krebs, Indian Territory, on July 4, 1882, players used sacks of hay and cans for bases as 300 people watched the home team defeat nearby Savanna, 35–4. In 1889 future Hall of Fame pitcher Joe “Iron Man” McGinnity starred for Krebs and helped spread interest in the game to places like Tahlequah, Muskogee, Eufaula, Checotah, Vinita and Wagoner. The land rush that prompted the formation of Oklahoma Territory in 1890 (Indian Territory remained the eastern part of what in 1907 would become the state of Oklahoma) also scattered baseball diamonds in new places, including Guthrie, Stillwater, Kingfisher and Oklahoma City. Clothing merchant Seymour C. Heyman started Oklahoma City’s first professional baseball club in 1902, but it was another two years before the Mets, part of the Southwest League, became the first team there to play a full season of organized baseball. Subsequent minor league teams in Oklahoma’s capital city have included the Indians, Senators, Boosters, 89ers and RedHawks.” In Minnesota we continued our baseball tradition with the North Star Club of St. Paul with another team across the river in Minneapolis. One of the most interesting notes from this era was captered in Homer Croy’s 1949 book Jesse James Was My Neighbor, which told how the Cole-Younger gang “went out to see a baseball game between the St. Paul Red Caps and the Winona Clippers. September 7, the gang made the very unwise choice of robbing the bank in Northfield, Minn., that landed the three Younger brothers—Cole, Bob and Jim—in Stillwater Penitentiary. “In 1875 the all-white Winona Clippers fielded a black pitcher/second baseman named W.W. Fisher. And in 1883 John “Bud” Fowler, a black player who hailed from Cooperstown, N.Y., saw action at various positions for the Northwestern League team in Stillwater (presumably not within sight of the imprisoned Younger brothers’ cells). Minnesota claimed its first major league team in 1884, when St. Paul played nine games in the Union Association (a league that lasted just one season). But the state didn’t host another team in the majors until 1961, when the Washington Senators moved to Minneapolis and became the Minnesota Twins.” Around Tombstone in 1882, , a civil engineer from Massachusetts named George S. Rice had baseball on his mind. While Wyatt Earp chased the “cowboys” Rice started a “team called the San Pedro Boys at his Boston and Arizona Mill, following that up with the Tombstone Base Ball Association squad. After much practice, his “tossers” opened their season on May 12 with a loss to a Tucson club.” Chick Gandil and Buck Weaver of the 1919 black sox played for Douglas, AZ in 1925. By the 1870s soldiers were playing ball at Wyoming Territory forts, and towns like Laramie and Cheyenne had organized teams. The latter sported such names as the Black Stockings, Nonpareils, Benedicts, Eclipse, Bachelors and Indians. There are more teams and more stories, but the fact is – baseball was part of the old wild west.

I thank Yu for the most fun I have had in a long time. So many comments, so many of you quoting me to argue and debate. This is what the Hot Stove is supposed to me. Thanks to all the postings, and to all the debates.

I am really more interested in innings pitched. The pitcher who gets outs for the most innings saves the rest of the team and it usually means that they are being effective.

At some point the teams with the big dollars run out. The Yankees and Dodgers and Cubs cannot sign everyone. You can see that this year. But every year the other teams talk themselves into spending too much because, if I don't someone else will.

I like the age cut off and it is really nice to see how you pared last years list before creating this years.

I would prefer to see how a pitchers K rate varies from inning to inning. Does it go up when the sluggers like Sano flail away. Is it really high in 1 or 2 innings which would make the pitcher more of a candidate for relief appearances. Does it go away in the fifth and sixth?

I understand what you are saying. As a self employed person I have a lot of uncertainty, but at the level of these contracts if have is base and half is incentive - I think they can survive.

I do not know how to make this case for TD except in this short blog. I love the ability to discuss, debate and disagree without antagonism. ​As you have seen and responded to - I am the anti Darvish guy, at least in years 3 and beyond and the likes and the responses have been wonderful. This is what a sight like this is best at doing. I choose to be the contrarian and I have tried to express that as many ways as I can. Should I pull all of my statements together here? ​But that is not my point. It is the wonderfully civil discourse that has happened that really pleases me. Do I care if you all agree? No. I just want an ability to challenge the prevailing attitude. ​I want to say no without being angry or responding to your disagreement in an angry way. All of the comments are spread throughout the various posts and dialogues and I have truly enjoyed every argument and challenge. ​Thanks to all of you and to TD.