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    Drafting College Relievers


    Seth Stohs

    In June, the Twins used the sixth overall pick on a hard-throwing, left-handed, college relief pitcher. Tyler Jay made two starts in his three season at the University of Illinois. Out of the bullpen, he was throwing a fastball as high as 97. He has three other pitches scouts believe can be at least average ,if not better than average, along with strong makeup.

    Has the strategy of drafting hard-throwing college relievers paid out at all for the Twins to this point? We haven’t seen a lot of success with it at the big league level, but that doesn’t mean it was or is a bad strategy.

    Image courtesy of Jesse Johnson, USA Today

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    Let’s take a look at the college relievers that the Twins have taken in the first ten rounds of the last eight drafts.

    2008 DRAFT

    Carlos Gutierrez was the 27th overall pick of the 2008 draft by the Twins. He had been the closer for the University of Miami in their run in the College World Series. He had been pitching in relief because he had Tommy John surgery the year earlier. He started for two seasons before moving to the bullpen in the second half of 2010. He wanted to pitch out of the bullpen. In 2011 and 2012 in Rochester, he posted ERAs over 5.00 out of the bullpen. He spent a year in the Cubs system before calling it career in 2014.

    2009 DRAFT

    After taking Kyle Gibson and Matt Bashore with their first two picks (first-rounders), the Twins took Billy Bullock in the second round and Ben Tootle in the third round.

    Billy Bullock was the closer at the University of Florida. He was known for working in the upper-90s. He did well in the low levels of the minor leagues, but he really struggled with his control. Before the 2011 season, he was traded to the Braves so that the Twins could keep Rule 5 pick Scott Diamond. He split time between AA and AAA in 2011 and 2012. In 2013, he served a 50-game PED suspension before being released. He’s played in several independent leagues since then, last year in Sioux City.

    Ben Tootle was actually a starter at Jacksonville State University. He frequently hit 100 mph on the radar gun despite a slight frame. He fought shoulder problems, had surgery and continued to fight control problems. He was let go following the 2011 season and spent one year in independent ball.

    2010 DRAFT

    The Twins didn’t draft a college relief pitcher until they took Matt Hauser in the eighth round.

    2011 DRAFT

    With their second round pick, the Twins selected Eden Prairie native Madison Boer from the University of Oregon. There he had split time between starting and the bullpen. The Twins wanted to give him an opportunity to start. He made 19 starts for Ft. Myers in 2012 but then just three more before he was released in July.

    In the third round, they took hard-throwing left-hander Corey Williams out of Vanderbilt. There was never any thought to making him a starter. Unfortunately, he missed the entire 2014 season after having Tommy John surgery. He returned in June of 2015 and got through the season. Fully healthy, he will likely start the season in Chattanooga but could realistically debut with the Twins by the end of the season.

    2012 DRAFT

    After taking Byron Buxton with the second overall pick and JO Berrios with the 32nd overall pick the Twins selected Georgia Tech reliever Luke Bard With the 42nd overall pick. There was a plan to give him an opportunity to start. Unfortunately, coming into the 2015 season, Bard had accumulated a total of only 19.1 innings. He had several surgeries and missed the entire 2014 season. He returned in mid-2015 with the Kernels and got through the season healthy. If healthy, he can move up quickly because he throws hard and gets great movement.

    In the second round, the Twins selected left-hander Mason Melotakis out of Northwestern State University in Louisiana. Out of the bullpen, he was hitting 97. In 2013, he made 18 starts before ending the season in the bullpen for Cedar Rapids. In 2014, he made two starts in Ft. Myers before being moved permanently to the bullpen. His 2014 ended prematurely and had Tommy John surgery in October which cost him the 2015 season. He was just added to the Twins 40-man roster because of his potential to be a dominant lefty reliever in the not-too-distant future.

    In the third round, the Twins took Rice University’s first baseman and co-closer JT Chargois. He hit over .300 in this time at Rice, but it was on the mound that he got noticed. Sporting an upper-90s fastball, he began his career in Elizabethton and made 12 appearances in 2012. He didn’t pitch again in a game until the 2015 season because of injury leading to Tommy John surgery. He came back and sat in the upper-90s, frequently hitting 100. He also has a good slider. Following the season, he was an easy choice to add to the 40-man roster. He could surface quickly in 2015.

    In the fifth round, the Twins took Rice’s other co-closer, Tyler Duffey. He had been a reliever his entire life, but the Twins felt that he could transition to being a starter. In 2013, he worked 121 innings between Cedar Rapids and Ft. Myers. In 2014, he pitched 149.1 innings between Ft. Myers, New Britain and Rochester. And in 2015, he threw 138.1 innings between Chattanooga and Rochester before finishing the season with 58 innings with the Twins. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say he was their best pitcher the final six weeks of the season. Sure, he’s made just nine starts, but he certainly looks like he can be a solid mid-rotation guy, maybe more with that curve ball.

    2013 DRAFT

    The Twins didn’t take a college reliever until the seventh round when they took Brian Gilbert out of Seton Hall.

    2014 DRAFT

    After taking Nick Gordon with their first pick, the Twins went on a long run of college relievers again.

    Nick Burdi was their second round pick out of Louisville. He was a bullpen guy all along and obviously will remain so. 2015 was a learning experience for him. He came one strong after his return to AA late in the season. He had a great showing in the Arizona Fall League. His fastball touches triple-digits, and his slider was much improved. With those two pitches, he has the potential to be a great reliever. And soon!

    In the third round, they went with a righty Michael Cederoth. He had started some at San Diego State, but was a reliever his junior season. He was also hitting 100 at times. The Twins had him start at E-Town, and he began the 2015 season in the Cedar Rapids rotation. He made six starts and five bullpen appearances before being shut down for the rest of the season with “illness.” He will likely move to the bullpen where he again has a chance to dominate with the big fastball.

    In the fourth round, they selected Georgia Tech lefty Sam Clay. The lefty began the season with Cedar Rapids in the bullpen, but he struggled with his control and went back to Elizabethton to start. He returned late in the season and made a few starts for the Kernels. He will likely continue to get an opportunity to start, but as a reliever, he can reach 97. At some point, it’s most likely that he will wind up in the bullpen.

    Jake Reed was the team’s fifth round pick. He was a starter the first two seasons at Oregon before becoming the team’s closer his junior year. There may have been thought of having him start, but after seeing the way he dominated in Cedar Rapids and then in the AFL in 2014, as well as seeing his pitch mix, the decision to leave him in the bullpen easy. He skipped Ft. Myers and jumped right to AA. He really struggled and midway through the second half was sent down to the Miracle where he figured some things out. He came back to the Lookouts and pitched great in the AFL. Like Burdi and Chargois, Reed could debut with the Twins in 2016.

    That wasn’t it. In the sixth round they took University of Texas closer John Curtiss and gave him a chance to start.

    SUMMARY

    While a big deal is made of the Twins taking a bunch of college relievers and making them starters, it’s not as common as we want to think. In these eight years, they did it with Carlos Gutierrez, Madison Boer, Tyler Duffey, Michael Cederoth and Sam Clay. A 20% success rate would be pretty good.

    The rest of the power arms were and will continue to work out of the bullpen. As we have seen the trend in baseball the last few years, power bullpen arms are hugely valuable.

    Injury has taken its toll on this group, to be sure. Five of the 15 pitchers have had major surgery that has cost them a year of development or more. When college pitchers, drafted at 21, miss a year of time due to injury, they aren’t going to debut at 22 or 23 the way many like to see. Taking care of them in their recovery, and bringing them back smartly, can mean they won’t debut until they’re 25, maybe even 26. And that’s OK.

    Tyler Jay will get an opportunity to start beginning in 2016. We’ll see how that goes. When you take a guy with the sixth overall pick in the draft, you need to be very sure that he can start. In the fifth round in 2015, the Twins took hard-throwing lefty Alex Robinson from Maryland. He’s had bad control, but he can hit 96 and shows a devastating slider that needs to be controlled and developed.

    There’s no question that teams like the Royals have shown how valuable a bullpen can be. If starters can complete six innings, the team has a good chance to win. With guys like Williams, Chargois, Bard, Melotakis, Burdi and Reed getting close, the Twins will hopefully have that kind of dominant bullpen in the not-too-distant future.

    There is no perfect way to grade a draft. The strategy of drafting hard-throwing college relievers hasn’t provided any success to the big league club with the exception of nine starts from Tyler Duffey. Injury has delayed the timeline for several others. However, there is a lot of potential that is getting very close to contributing to the big league club soon. Maybe we can judge it again in five years or so.


    Interested in learning more about the Minnesota Twins' top prospects? Check out our comprehensive top prospects list that includes up-to-date stats, articles and videos about every prospect, scouting reports, and more!

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    Marek Houston

    Cedar Rapids Kernels - A+, SS
    The 22-year-old went 2-for-5 on Friday night, his fourth straight multi-hit game. Heading into the week, he was hitting .246/.328/.404 (.732). Four games later, he is hitting .303/.361/.447 (.808).

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    Difference is Jay was a college reliever.  He's probably not going to be on a starting pitcher fast track through the minors.  He probably won't reach AAA as quickly as Sale or the Cardinals pitchers, which will make it harder to predict if he could actually make the immediate jump to the MLB pen.

     

    Heck, if he is still starting come July, they will probably have to think about shutting him down due to an excess of innings rather than aggressively promoting him.

    Very true, putting Jay on a fast track to the bullpen is probably not going to be best for his long-term development. It did work for Sale, who was drafted in 2010 and made his debut that August. But, the takeaway I get when you look at the big picture like Seth has here is there are backup options like this. If they don't add anyone significant, and the bullpen starts out poorly or we have injuries, there are a lot of Plan Bs out there.

     

    Another one would be using Berrios in the pen if he can't crack the starting rotation and putting him on a development path similar to Johan or Liriano. That would allow you to ease him into the majors while also giving a big boost to the pen. Again, probably shouldn't be Plan A, but it's a backup option.

     

     

    it is 100% clear that some of these guys would never be starters, yet they kept trying to make them starters. Also, weren't a couple of them hurt in college, heck I think one had already had surgery.. 

    If the current trend continues, TJ surgery will soon be performed when the umbiical chord is cut.

     

    Very true, putting Jay on a fast track to the bullpen is probably not going to be best for his long-term development. It did work for Sale, who was drafted in 2010 and made his debut that August. But, the takeaway I get when you look at the big picture like Seth has here is there are backup options like this. If they don't add anyone significant, and the bullpen starts out poorly or we have injuries, there are a lot of Plan Bs out there.

     

    Another one would be using Berrios in the pen if he can't crack the starting rotation and putting him on a development path similar to Johan or Liriano. That would allow you to ease him into the majors while also giving a big boost to the pen. Again, probably shouldn't be Plan A, but it's a backup option.

     

    Not to mention the obvious.   You can't compare any top draft pick to a one of the best in the game.

     

    Well it worked for Chris Sale.....any path would have worked for Chris Sale.  Starter, reliever, fast track, slow track.  The guy has 22 WAR in four years.

     

     

     

     

    I'm also suspicious of the top end velocity on some of these guys.  I saw Clay start later in the year in Cedar Rapids and my recollection is that he had just modest speed, say topping at 90-91.  It looked like he'd need a running start to hit 97.

     

    It's fine to be suspicious of supposed top end velocities, but you need to also be careful about relying on MPH readings shown in ballparks. For example, the readings on the scoreboard in CR run about 2-3 MPH lower than actual speed, due to the positioning of the equipment used. If you saw Clay sitting at 90-91, he was probably actually at 92-94. I don't recall what Sam's velo was when he came back late in the season.

     

    Not to mention the obvious.   You can't compare any top draft pick to a one of the best in the game.

     

    Well it worked for Chris Sale.....any path would have worked for Chris Sale.  Starter, reliever, fast track, slow track.  The guy has 22 WAR in four years.

    Yeah, that's a lofty bar to set, but why can't we go there? Jay was taken 6th overall, expectations should be pretty high for a guy you make that kind of commitment to, right?

     

    Because they work 60-70 innings instead of 160-200 innings. 

    Then why invest a ton of top draft picks for those 60-70 innings?  That's my point, you should be drafting to find players that are harder to get by other means.

     

    That's generally not the case for relievers, the Royals pen has been comprised of a few failed starters, a 10th round draft pick, an international guy, a minor league free agent, a Rule 5 guy (and now an MLB free agent, in Soria), etc.

    "While a big deal is made of the Twins taking a bunch of college relievers and making them starters, it’s not as common as we want to think. In these eight years, they did it with Carlos Gutierrez, Madison Boer, Tyler Duffey, Michael Cederoth and Sam Clay. A 20% success rate would be pretty good."

     

    You should add Melotakis to that list, Seth.

     

    In addition, while you covered college pitchers drafted in the top few rounds, there are still some college pitchers that were drafted in lower rounds that continue to make progress. Taylor Rogers and Brett Lee come to mind. I think they were both 10-11 round picks, but may have actually been starters in college, I don't recall for sure.

     

    I'm probably in the minority, but I like seeing the college guys getting starts at Class A. You need to find out quickly whether these guys are the real deal or not and I don't think you do that by watching them pitch 1-2 innings every 2-3 days or so. You learn how to pitch by pitching and getting more innings that first year or two of pro ball is better, in most cases. Guys like Burdi and Reed are exceptions, but you have to have SOME starting pitchers.

     

    I think, as much as anything else, you've reminded us just how much of a numbers game professional baseball is. The fact is that, regardless of where guys are drafted, their chances of surviving the meatgrinder of MiLB are pretty low.

     

    Very true, putting Jay on a fast track to the bullpen is probably not going to be best for his long-term development. It did work for Sale, who was drafted in 2010 and made his debut that August. But, the takeaway I get when you look at the big picture like Seth has here is there are backup options like this. If they don't add anyone significant, and the bullpen starts out poorly or we have injuries, there are a lot of Plan Bs out there.

    Yeah, but given where Jay is coming from, I'm not really sure he will be in position to be a Plan B in 2016 if he goes into it as a starter.  I don't think you'll get enough information from him as a starter at lower levels to know if he can be an MLB pen asset, and if you are waiting for Plan A's to fail, I don't think there will be enough time left to switch him back to an accelerated relief path that ends in MLB in 2016.

     

    Summary of above study:

    "However, at least in my opinion, beginning a career in professional baseball out of high school gives a pitcher a greater chance for both longevity and success as a big leaguer"

    Opinions are like.....  Research could fairly easily prove or disprove this theory..  Not that I have the time or inclination to do said research.

     

     

    Yeah, that's a lofty bar to set, but why can't we go there? Jay was taken 6th overall, expectations should be pretty high for a guy you make that kind of commitment to, right?

     

    That was a pretty good draft in hindsight, Harper, Machado, Sale, Harvey, etc..   But in addition to Sale and Harvey you had Taillon, Pomeranz, Loux, Whitsen, McGuire, and Covey in the top 15 (Some may turn out still I know).  So a stud hit rate of 2 of 8 so far.  I am not saying we should be excused if we miss every time.  My point is we can’t look in hindsight and pick the best guy, then say that team had the right approach with them, i.e. Sale going almost straight to the MLB pen, then moving to the rotation.  The reality is Sale would have been really good no matter the approach or timeline.  We used to see on these boards comparisons between Trout and Buxton as far as time in the minors as well.   The reality is Buxton was not on a 10 WAR pace his first year like Trout and it was the scouting and hitting the jackpot with Trout that was the coup, not the approach. Same with Sale.

     

    "While a big deal is made of the Twins taking a bunch of college relievers and making them starters, it’s not as common as we want to think. In these eight years, they did it with Carlos Gutierrez, Madison Boer, Tyler Duffey, Michael Cederoth and Sam Clay. A 20% success rate would be pretty good."

     

    You should add Melotakis to that list, Seth.

     

    In addition, while you covered college pitchers drafted in the top few rounds, there are still some college pitchers that were drafted in lower rounds that continue to make progress. Taylor Rogers and Brett Lee come to mind. I think they were both 10-11 round picks, but may have actually been starters in college, I don't recall for sure.

     

    I'm probably in the minority, but I like seeing the college guys getting starts at Class A. You need to find out quickly whether these guys are the real deal or not and I don't think you do that by watching them pitch 1-2 innings every 2-3 days or so. You learn how to pitch by pitching and getting more innings that first year or two of pro ball is better, in most cases. Guys like Burdi and Reed are exceptions, but you have to have SOME starting pitchers.

     

    I think, as much as anything else, you've reminded us just how much of a numbers game professional baseball is. The fact is that, regardless of where guys are drafted, their chances of surviving the meatgrinder of MiLB are pretty low.

     

    I should have had Melotakis to that list... 17%

     

    And yes, I thought about adding others... but i had to cut it off somewhere. Also, Rogers was a starter all three years in college, so he wouldn't have qualified under the College Reliever plan. 

     

    You make a great point. Look at high school pitchers drafted. It's really hard to get all the way up to the big leagues. 

    Such promise and hope! I don't see one name that has made it and contributed with any significance at all to the Twins, yet. Sure it is hard to guess right. And many in this article are still developing, right? Looks good on paper, but the fact is...... no lasting results yet that have had any impact for an extended time. There is always the future and hope, though.

    Edited by h2oface

     

    You make a great point. Look at high school pitchers drafted. It's really hard to get all the way up to the big leagues. 

     

    Yet, when drafted, many are considered top ten, and even top 5 prospects as they pitch in the lower minors. Articles and laurels are heaped upon them. Hype wins over historical actuality.  And use them for proven MLB players by trade right away, while they have the highest value they probably will ever have? Don't even think about it in Twinsland.

     

    If two out of that bunch can be effective in the Major Leagues, that would be a big deal.

     

    This.  and given how the progression has been, I think it's pretty safe to say that some of these guys will at least make the show.  It's looking promising.  Given that RP seems to be the new money ball, perhaps the Twins were on top of this a bit earlier than we thought?

     

    Side note, I don't think this is a trust issue.  Most of these guys are still in the lower minors.  There's some AA success here.  That's a far cry from 'we dont' trust you'.

    It's difficult to look back and then put everything into proper perspective. We tend to elevate our level of optimism about our own prospects.

     

    I try to remind myself about how dismal the success rate is, and remember that the success rate starts to fall off a cliff even before the end of the first round. And by the second round, expect one in six to ultimately become a contributing MLB regular. If one gets a Google Machine and points it at The Interweb, one might see a study or two, perhaps from a site called BA, that supports this.

     

    Whether a team has a "strategy" of selecting high-velo pitchers (low-velo pitchers throw hard too) or athletic outfield prospects with their non-first round picks, the odds absolutely suck for those prospects, like 17% success for a 2nd rounder and that falls off to closer to 5% for a 5th round guy IIRC. Worse I'd guess for pitchers because of the injury toll.

     

    I'm not sold on an intense focus on drafting high-velo guys in those early rounds, although it might be that there aren't many left to pick from after the early rounds other than the types who grow into their bodies and increase their velo.

     

    So, if the odds of MLB success are roughly one in six for guys picked after the first round, we should probably feel fortunate if two or three of these guys pan out.

     


    While a big deal is made of the Twins taking a bunch of college relievers and making them starters, it’s not as common as we want to think. In these eight years, they did it with Carlos Gutierrez, Madison Boer, Tyler Duffey, Michael Cederoth and Sam Clay. A 20% success rate would be pretty good.

     

    I think that is it more complicated than that:

     

    a. We need to know what is the league success rate?  If the average is 50% with the top 4 picks, that 20% looks pretty bad.

    b. "Success" is a gradient that needs to be defined and weighted:  Getting the next Johan Santana or Clayton Kershaw, should count more than getting the next Tommy Milone or the next Phillip Humber or the next Sam Deduno.

    c. Look at it as a piece of a bigger strategy that should provide some fruit.   I'd dare to say that the Twins' pitcher drafting strategy in that time frame, 2008- failed miserably since all they have to show is: a mid-rotation starter (Gibson), a few replacement level relievers (Tonkin, Achter, Darnell, O'Rourke,) and a guy who shows mid-rotation potential (Duffey) but pitched only in 10 MLB games.

     

    The results (c. above) do not really favor their overall drafting of pitchers from 2008 on.  I'd venture to say that they are in the worst 5 teams in drafting pitchers during that time.

     

     

    This.  and given how the progression has been, I think it's pretty safe to say that some of these guys will at least make the show.  It's looking promising.  Given that RP seems to be the new money ball, perhaps the Twins were on top of this a bit earlier than we thought?

     

    Side note, I don't think this is a trust issue.  Most of these guys are still in the lower minors.  There's some AA success here.  That's a far cry from 'we dont' trust you'.

     

    Perhaps the new money ball will be trading totally unproven but highly rated prospects for real major league players in the future, before they spend 3 years of disappointment in the farm (like Kohl Stewart)...... like Dansby Swanson getting traded for Shelby Miller.... and Meyer for Span (prospect losing the trade for 3 years and counting). Let the prospects fail on another team while they are traded for proven pros that can help you now and in the future, instead of hope and dreams. Trade for the pros that have weathered the farm system and succeeded, instead of trading pros for prospects that fail over 80% of the time.

    Edited by h2oface

     

    I think that is it more complicated than that:

     

    a. We need to know what is the league success rate?  If the average is 50% with the top 4 picks, that 20% looks pretty bad.

    b. "Success" is a gradient that needs to be defined and weighted:  Getting the next Johan Santana or Clayton Kershaw, should count more than getting the next Tommy Milone or the next Phillip Humber or the next Sam Deduno.

    c. Look at it as a piece of a bigger strategy that should provide some fruit.   I'd dare to say that the Twins' pitcher drafting strategy in that time frame, 2008- failed miserably since all they have to show is: a mid-rotation starter (Gibson), a few replacement level relievers (Tonkin, Achter, Darnell, O'Rourke,) and a guy who shows mid-rotation potential (Duffey) but pitched only in 10 MLB games.

     

    The results (c. above) do not really favor their overall drafting of pitchers from 2008 on.  I'd venture to say that they are in the worst 5 teams in drafting pitchers during that time.

     

    a.) Sure, but if anything related to the draft is close to 50%, I'd be pretty shocked.

     

    b.) Fair enough, but I guess I think setting the bar of success at Clayton Kershaw isn't going to look good on pretty much everyone.

     

    c.) With this one, again, you'd have to go through each and every team and find out how they did. Two mid-rotation starters is nothing to scoff at, and four relievers... and frankly, 5 more years before you can really grade most of the drafts since 2008. 

     

    Yeah, that's a lofty bar to set, but why can't we go there? Jay was taken 6th overall, expectations should be pretty high for a guy you make that kind of commitment to, right?

    Realistic expectations?  No.  Not very many players ever get to Sale's level.  You shouldn't expect the top 6 players every year to get there.

     

    a.) Sure, but if anything related to the draft is close to 50%, I'd be pretty shocked.

     

     

     

    About 70 percent of pitchers who ranked as Top 50-100 Prospects gave their major league teams less than 3.0 WAR total during their 6 years under control according to this research:

     

    http://www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/how-much-an-mlb-prospect-is-worth-updated-trade-surplus-values/

     

    Gibson and Duffey have been reasonably successful and should end up contributing well above average WAR while under control. Too early to tell about Burdi, Reed, Cederoth, Williams, Jay and others drafted in recent years.

     

    RE: RP and aging. I have a real problem with the aging curves put together by FanGraphs. A lot of RP have one good year in middle relief, get a couple more years to prove themselves but can't continue to develop.

     

    Instead, look at last year's top 30 RP, either by WAR or WPA (preferred, IMO). Average age was 28.6 years old. Only Ken Giles was under 25 for WPA. Add Osuna at 20 years old if you prefer WAR. 

     

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=y&type=c,4,5,11,7,8,13,-1,36,37,40,43,44,48,51,-1,6,45,62,-1,59,63,3&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=20,d

     




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