Rockies 10, Twins 6: Humiliating Defeat Leaves Twins on Ropes with Deadline Looming

The org has to figure something out with Zebby, we can’t keep running out a guy who once in a blue moon might have a good start other then that it’s been bad. Going out against the worst team in baseball and giving up 5 in 4 innings and 8 hits terrible. Striking guys out is great but, doesn’t mean anything if you can’t keep guys from scoring and giving your team a chance to win games. He’s had enough innings in the bigs to where we need to start seeing results. 

I don't know the last time I looked pitchers don't swinging the bat other than Ohtani. This team needs bats more than arms.

18 hours ago, Baumer67 said:

The Twins are bad, we know that!  Look at development from 1st round picks alone.  Has Royce Lewis, Trevor Larnach, Matt Walner, Brooks Lee really gotten better once they've gotten to the majors.  It seems once the league figured these guy's out they have not been able to make the correct adjustments.  To me it's kind of a total system failure by everybody player, coaches, and upper management to not find a way to get through this.

You mention the ones who haven't developed, but what about the others?  Cavaco, Sabato, Miller, DeBarge?  The Twins can still pride themselves they took and developed them.

1 hour ago, Dantheman said:

The org has to figure something out with Zebby, we can’t keep running out a guy who once in a blue moon might have a good start other then that it’s been bad. Going out against the worst team in baseball and giving up 5 in 4 innings and 8 hits terrible. Striking guys out is great but, doesn’t mean anything if you can’t keep guys from scoring and giving your team a chance to win games. He’s had enough innings in the bigs to where we need to start seeing results. 

So after 14 starts, not even a half season worth, he should be a finished product.  This is part of the learning process, he actually has had some very good starts.  And two of the runs scored were on the home run given up by Stewart.

46 minutes ago, karcherd said:

So after 14 starts, not even a half season worth, he should be a finished product.  This is part of the learning process, he actually has had some very good starts.  And two of the runs scored were on the home run given up by Stewart.

Career 6.53 era through 60 innings, with that amount of innings you have to start to be able to figure it out, not saying he has to be a finished product, but there has to be a trend in the right direction of having better numbers. Needs to be serviceable, I’d take a 4.8-9 era and be fine but to have a 6.53 it’s not gonna get the job done. 
 

3 minutes ago, Dantheman said:

Career 6.53 era through 60 innings, with that amount of innings you have to start to be able to figure it out, not saying he has to be a finished product, but there has to be a trend in the right direction of having better numbers. Needs to be serviceable, I’d take a 4.8-9 era and be fine but to have a 6.53 it’s not gonna get the job done. 
 

For comparison Berrios had an era over 8 after his 14 starts in roughly the same number of innings.  And Matthews is just coming off the IL.  I think he will be at least a mid-rotation pitcher, we have seen as many good starts as bad.  But there should be some patience.

12 hours ago, karcherd said:

For comparison Berrios had an era over 8 after his 14 starts in roughly the same number of innings.  And Matthews is just coming off the IL.  I think he will be at least a mid-rotation pitcher, we have seen as many good starts as bad.  But there should be some patience.

Berrios was 22 and Matthew is 25, the 2016 Twins ended up 59 - 103, so letting a young guy learn on the job is different than what the Twins are doing this year? 

I have hope for Zebby but he feels like a Jax/Sands type of bullpen pitcher IMO. I am willing to give him more chances this year but I am geting close to trying the next guy up. (A prospect not one of these guys brought in from other teams) 

On 7/20/2025 at 7:29 AM, karcherd said:

New ownership can't happen soon enough.  This organization needs a top to bottom honest assessment of everything from players, player development, coaching, and organizational philosophy.

How can every young player come up here and either have a little success then regress or not have success at all.  Yes I know not all prospects become stars or even competent major leaguers.  But either their assessment and drafting of players is really bad or they are not being developed correctly.  

What is the plan for this organization, they will play stopgap veterans and will not move on when they can get similar results from the players they supposedly developed and could find out if that development will pay off.  Leaving Anthony M. up here in place of Adams is just another example of this.

Put players at one position and let them get comfortable.  You could see Correa and Castro talking after the force out at second last night.  Correa plays with a different partner at 2B every night, reps do matter in getting comfortable and helping defensive communication.  And give players regular AB's regardless of who is pitching.

I want to see Lewis, Lee, Wallner, and Larnach in the lineup on a regular basis and fill in the other players around them.  Find out if they can be a part of the core and if not make the necessary adjustments going into next season.  And let the young starters stay in the rotation the rest of the year, one will need to be sent down for Lopez.  But I don't want to see Paddack getting starts over them.

I am just very frustrated with this team and the leadership from the front office down to the field staff.

 

Spot on from my perspective. While I think the draft process of identifying talent is a pretty well run machine, the development is embarrassing. Between the injuries and like you stated, guys who are clearly well liked around the league who proceed to fall off a cliff once they reach upper levels or MLB, it has to stop.

This has been an organizational issue since I was a kid (80s). The only time being late 90s and early 2000s when the perfect storm had gathered, and we had no choice but to run that young group out, and they were fantastic, and Minnesota Twins until it was time to pay up. I also believe this is the one area you can't blame the Pohlads. We have always spent on IL free agents, draft picks, facilities are top notch, academies in the right places, etc. I've sat with plenty of scouts over the years and the Twins have a good rep for all that.

Also, if I'm being honest development now is vastly different than when I was playing. Pitching especially. It's less about endurance and stamina and eating innings, and more just maximizing in smaller bursts, which to me is clearly why we have all the injuries we have. Not only are players throwing harder, but the damage is done to most of these guys before they're even drafted. Why? Well, when you're learning to throw that slider at 14-18, you're destroying your arm. It's one thing to spin one once you've figured it out, still a very violent action with the arm, but fundamentally sound. That is not the case when Dad is out in the yard TRYING to teach you. I've worked with kids for over 20 years now and for me, until they physically develop, it's all overhand, 12-6 curve. The motion is more natural, chance of injury very slim. It's unrealistic to do this obviously everywhere with everyone, because everyone wants to throw harder and roll the dice on injuries and learn that slider/splitter. But it will continue to hinder not just the Twins, but baseball in general. 

And on repetitions, 100%. We have too many guys who are considered swiss army knives, who should'nt be. I mean, I've heard at least 10 different names for future 1b, 2b, SS, 3b and catcher, at damn near each spot. That's an issue. Pick a place, put these guys at it, let them perfect it. I get the need for a Wili Castro, you need one. Not 10 of them. It's asinine the roster construction. Part of it is bred from players soft as pudding, hurt literally 75% of the time. The other is the stupid fixation on matchups and analytics, let them F@#ing play!!

Rocco, to me, is the worst. Lifeless. Brain numbing decisions. Lack of accountability with players. Incessant need to bury his face in his binder of numbers. He has zero feel for the game, period. If the binder says it, that's what we're doing. I can't stand him, or his style, right down to how he interviews. Id fire him and his entire staff today if I owned them. Id bring in a Francona or Showalter on a deal where it's agreed this isn't long term, get the ship right, have a replacement ready for your retirement, and go turn this around. Establish a new culture, top to bottom. And id lean it all heavily towards the development side. To me, that is everything.

18 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Well first off...."other than Lopez and Ryan" is one hell of a caveat.  Selling got us our best pitcher and making a wise trade of Arraez got us our second best one.

I mean....that's the argument right there.  Sure, you misfire on guys like SWR and Martin.  That trade didn't work out.  You know what else is true?  We'd still be sitting here in 2025 with no Berrios.  Whether those guys don't contribute because they're never here, or weren't very good doesn't change that Berrios wasn't staying.

The alternative is really simple: if you want to do nothing, then you will add nothing to your chances going forward.  I assure you when the door closes on the 2027 season, we won't be bringing back Ober, Ryan, and Lopez.  Or Jax and Duran.  Some of them will be gone one way or the other.  The question is when do you move the ones you don't plan to retain.  Right now is when that conversation should be happening rather than when it's too late.

Agreed, and I'd move all of them this season, or off season. Unless some white whale just purchased the Twins, none of them will be here. I was 100% against moving Ryan until his All Star game comments. He isn't resigning here, ever. Get Boston and LA and both NYs bidding, and move him for a haul. He is an outstanding player and should bring back a potential group to add to an already very valuable system. Castro, Bader and Coulombe, all gone. Duran, gone. Jax, gone. That's a haul of players I can't imagine wouldn't include one or two sure fire players, hopefully at Catcher and young arms. Painful, yes. But absolutely necessary.