Why have the Twins been dumping so much salary and players the last couple years?

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

Why don't we just let the StarTribune commenters run the Twins business? They'll be in the World Series in no time.

[Mike Sixel]

To clarify on my Sanchez point, I don't think it's a terrible deal. I'm not against the Twins pursuing a Sanchez-type player, but with a few caveats:

 

- Try to offer him $17m for four years instead of $15m for five

 

- It wasn't right for 2013. Acquiring a Sanchez-type is good for an 85 win team that needs that one guy to win

 

- None of this matters because I fear that Ryan is averse to doing even that

 

Ya, and I tried so hard to avoid thread the first couple days......I'm done. I've killed my point.

[DutchFarmer]

Why don't we just let the StarTribune commenters run the Twins business? They'll be in the World Series in no time.

 

Nah, we'd be terrible for the business, not concerned enough with gauging the taxpayers.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

...and you deserve to be a marlins fan with your boom or bust attitude.

What I'm advocating is not a boom or bust approach. I don't think spending $100 million dollars to lose 95 games is a good idea. Need I remind you they did that 2 years ago. You want to assign an arbitrary number as a payroll goal and get pissed off if the Twins don't do what you want. I'm telling you that doesn't make any sense. The are far too many poor players on the roster and in the high minors to load up on long term contracts right now. When the team is better positioned to make a run at a championship through development of cost controlled players, THEN if they don't make a move or two or three to add high priced talent to get over the hump I will gladly join you in your angst. Until then, I'm going to pull a Mile Tice and say "enjoy the season". Enjoy watching Hicks and Arcia develop. Watch the minors to see how those guys are doing. Enjoy this with the requisite zero expectations of a playoff berth this year or next.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

Nah, we'd be terrible for the business, not concerned enough with gauging the taxpayers.

Star Tribune commenter, not Twins Daily commenter. I would never besmirch the fine people in this forum.

[drjim]

Sanchez signes for 5/90 or 18 per.

 

And what makes people think either Sanchez or Greinke would have signed here last offseason considering the state of the team? It would have taken a massive (and irresponsible) overpay.

[drjim]

Mike, regarding your point about the stadium the Twins have pumped more of their money into it this offseason, something like $15-20 mil in improvements. I think this had something to do with the fact not as much was spent on payroll this year.

[cmathewson]

Call me when they do sign that one player to put them over the top.....I won't be sitting by my phone. As stated above, they didn't distribute the risk either, they just pocketed the money.

 

What money? After two consecutive 90+ loss seasons, the days of $100 million budgets are gone, until they start winning again and fans start showing up. Unlike a lot of teams in this league, the Twins have a very small pool of money from TV and radio. So they have to rely on attendance.

 

The budget\was a little above $110 million in 2010, when they expected to sell out every game in the new stadium. After that monster year, it went up to $115 million. Last year, they didn't expect nearly as many fans in attendance, and they budgeted accordingly. There's a similar thing happening this year. If they go, say 81-81 this year, you can expect them to increase their budget on the anticipation of higher attendance. I expect it to be somewhere around $90 million in 2014, assuming they find a way to win at the current rate in 2013.

 

What they don't do here that they do in places like Detroit is subsidize the team out of the owner's bank account. If you expect them to do that, you're rooting for the wrong team. The Pohlads have never and will never bankroll this team.

[Mike Sixel]

Ninety million? With Morneau and Blackburn and Carroll coming off the payroll, you expect it to go up next year? Oh, and they get $25MM more in free revenue next year....so ya, lots of money will be pocketed, even if it goes up a few million.

[drjim]

What money? After two consecutive 90+ loss seasons, the days of $100 million budgets are gone, until they start winning again and fans start showing up. Unlike a lot of teams in this league, the Twins have a very small pool of money from TV and radio. So they have to rely on attendance.

 

The budget\was a little above $110 million in 2010, when they expected to sell out every game in the new stadium. After that monster year, it went up to $115 million. Last year, they didn't expect nearly as many fans in attendance, and they budgeted accordingly. There's a similar thing happening this year. If they go, say 81-81 this year, you can expect them to increase their budget on the anticipation of higher attendance. I expect it to be somewhere around $90 million in 2014, assuming they find a way to win at the current rate in 2013.

 

What they don't do here that they do in places like Detroit is subsidize the team out of the owner's bank account. If you expect them to do that, you're rooting for the

wrong team. The Pohlads have never and will never bankroll this team.

 

I actually expect payroll to be even lower next year.

 

I agree that the Pohlads will not subsidize a losing team iut of their bank account. Why should they? I do think they will stretch in the right situation but they aren't there at the moment.

[drjim]

Are people surprised a business wants to make profit?

 

And do they think building Target Field would guarantee success every year?

[Mike Sixel]

A: no, I have no issue with the Twins generating a profit.

B: of course not, but I also don't want to give them a tax subsidy, and then have them not spend the money to put a better product on the field.

 

Not once in this thread have I actually demanded success, trying yes, but not succeeding. That's a different thread entirely.

[DutchFarmer]

Are people surprised a business wants to make profit?

 

And do they think building Target Field would guarantee success every year?

 

Who is asking for guarantees of success? An effort would suffice.

 

Business making profit is great and I would have no leg to stand on here if I was simply a customer. However, as has been stated here ad nauseam, the stadium was publicly funded. This should allow us as fans to hold them accountable (profits being only part of the equation).

 

I come to TwinsDaily daily (yes, pun was intended ) and have refrained from commenting until the last week. I think I'm going back to refraining from commenting as there is little point in arguing with those suffering from stockholm syndrome.

 

I'm just happy at this point that I think we all share one common bond and that is that we want the Twins to win. Go Twins!

[cmathewson]

Ninety million? With Morneau and Blackburn and Carroll coming off the payroll, you expect it to go up next year? Oh, and they get $25MM more in free revenue next year....so ya, lots of money will be pocketed, even if it goes up a few million.

 

I wouldn't assume that Morneau comes off. Both Ryan and Antony have said it is their preference to keep him. And Morneau has said he wants to stay, provided he thinks he has a chance to win. He will likely be cheaper, but I'd say the odds are better than 50/50 that he stays. Blackburn, yes. Carroll probably (but he has a cheap option and he's a player/coach). If they draw better this year (which they will, imho) payroll will go up. And it will go up in proportion to how well they draw this year.

 

And, yes, they will spend it. This next offseason they actually have decent options on which to spend it, unlike last offseason, when the top four FA pitchers were Greinke, Sanchez, Dempster and Lohse. The only one of those four who is worth it is Dempster, and he wanted to go to the Red Sox, so he wasn't really an option.

 

They have spent between 50% and 52% of revenue for the last 10 years. I see no reason for them to stop that trend.

 

If you have such a problem with the smallest tax subsidy of any stadium in the league, go to Ramsey County with your money.

[drjim]

Who is asking for guarantees of success? An effort would suffice.

 

Business making profit is great and I would have no leg to stand on here if I was simply a customer. However, as has been stated here ad nauseam, the stadium was publicly funded. This should allow us as fans to hold them accountable (profits being only part of the equation).

 

I come to TwinsDaily daily (yes, pun was intended ) and have refrained from commenting until the last week. I think I'm going back to refraining from commenting as there is little point in arguing with those suffering from stockholm syndrome.

 

I'm just happy at this point that I think we all share one common bond and that is that we want the Twins to win. Go Twins!

 

So I disagree with you and that means I suffer from Stockholm Syndrome? Brilliant!

[drjim]

A: no, I have no issue with the Twins generating a profit.

B: of course not, but I also don't want to give them a tax subsidy, and then have them not spend the money to put a better product on the field.

 

Not once in this thread have I actually demanded success, trying yes, but not succeeding. That's a different thread entirely.

 

I'm naive enough to believe they had targeted a few other guys that they failed to get for barious reasons beyond just money.

 

I personally think their moves this offseason were pretty much in line with what they should do to maintain long term viability while putting a respectable product on the field in the interim. I guess we look at trying differently.

[Mike Sixel]

I wouldn't assume that Morneau comes off. Both Ryan and Antony have said it is their preference to keep him. And Morneau has said he wants to stay, provided he thinks he has a chance to win. He will likely be cheaper, but I'd say the odds are better than 50/50 that he stays. Blackburn, yes. Carroll probably (but he has a cheap option and he's a player/coach). If they draw better this year (which they will, imho) payroll will go up. And it will go up in proportion to how well they draw this year.

 

And, yes, they will spend it. This next offseason they actually have decent options on which to spend it, unlike last offseason, when the top four FA pitchers were Greinke, Sanchez, Dempster and Lohse. The only one of those four who is worth it is Dempster, and he wanted to go to the Red Sox, so he wasn't really an option.

 

They have spent between 50% and 52% of revenue for the last 10 years. I see no reason for them to stop that trend.

 

If you have such a problem with the smallest tax subsidy of any stadium in the league, go to Ramsey County with your money.

 

You want to back that tax subsidy statement up? I know with certainty that 1 stadium was built with zero subsidy, so that's at least one that is smaller. And no, I'm not moving because of this, that would cost me even more.

 

We have no idea what percent of revenue they spend on payroll. And when the MLB adds revenue that comes with no expense, I'd want the ratio to increase, not just pad their profit with another $12MM. Maybe that's unrealistic.

[cmathewson]

I come to TwinsDaily daily (yes, pun was intended ) and have refrained from commenting until the last week. I think I'm going back to refraining from commenting as there is little point in arguing with those suffering from stockholm syndrome.

 

Really? We're captives? If we don't like how the Twins are managed, we can choose not to be fans. If you feel like a captive, just walk away.

 

 

I'm just happy at this point that I think we all share one common bond and that is that we want the Twins to win. Go Twins!

 

That I can agree with.

[Mike Sixel]

What would make Morneau think they can win next year? What asset has come up this year that would make him think that? I'm genuinely curious about that.

 

Have you seen the list of FA pitchers next year, when the entire league has $25MM more to spend, you think players will have better value?

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

So I disagree with you and that means I suffer from Stockholm Syndrome? Brilliant!

I think I'm one if the victims of this disease with you. You just can't put it through people's heads that you can't buy victories and get sustainable success. Anyone bitching about "taxpayer funded stadiums" as if that gives them, personally, a greater voice is just out to complain and isn't really looking at the big picture, nor are they looking for a discussion. They are looking for validation.

[Mike Sixel]

Don't be afraid to judge my motives without ever having met me. Stick to the logic, and not judging the posters' motives.

[ThePuck]

Don't be afraid to judge my motives without ever having met me. Stick to the logic, and not judging the posters' motives.

 

You will never convince those who defend the Pohlad's and Ryan at every turn of anything. It's futile. Pohlad has even said that the percentage of revenue for payroll goes down during rebuilding years, like this one, but that doesn't matter. Even when it's from his own lips, it can't be true. Why do you keep fighting this fight?

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

Don't be afraid to judge my motives without ever having met me. Stick to the logic, and not judging the posters' motives.

 

I think I get where you are coming from. You are thinking the Twins can find a way to get Greinke and not have it hurt them long term, which I disagree with but I see why you are trying to make the point.

[ThePuck]

Don't be afraid to judge my motives without ever having met me. Stick to the logic, and not judging the posters' motives.

 

The Pohlad family has consistently followed a model of keeping the annual player payroll pegged to 50 percent of team revenue, (here comes the important part, read carefully) though in rebuilding years it's fallen well below that (not just below, WELL BELOW). At the Metrodome, there wasn't as much money coming in. This year, though, the payroll will rise by roughly $30 million to a team record above $95 million.

 

"All new ballparks have their peaks, and I'm sure the initial years will be very good to the Twins," Pohlad said. "Then it'll be up to us to sustain it after that, but the ballpark itself I think can sustain it for a long time."

 

In a question-and-answer session with reporters in a conference room overlooking a snow-covered Target Field, Pohlad dismissed the notion that the team has been trying to disprove a tightfisted reputation.

"We're not trying to show people," he said. "We're trying to do what we said we're going to do."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4897494

 

Question is, are they actually doing what they said they were going to do? I guess instead of questioning that, people should just move out of the darn county if they don't like it :-)

[Guest USAFChief]

I think I'm one if the victims of this disease with you. You just can't put it through people's heads that you can't buy victories and get sustainable success. Anyone bitching about "taxpayer funded stadiums" as if that gives them' date=' personally, a greater voice is just out to complain and isn't really looking at the big picture, nor are they looking for a discussion. They are looking for validation.[/quote'] I'm not sure that's true. Money and wins

[Guest USAFChief]

They have spent between 50% and 52% of revenue for the last 10 years.

Not according to Forbes, which pegs Twins revenue at $214M for 2012. MLB Team Values: The Business Of Baseball - Full List - Forbes

[Guest USAFChief]

A: no, I have no issue with the Twins generating a profit.

B: of course not, but I also don't want to give them a tax subsidy, and then have them not spend the money to put a better product on the field.

 

Not once in this thread have I actually demanded success, trying yes, but not succeeding. That's a different thread entirely.

I agree with all the above, but I would add that they really don't have to turn a profit to turn a profit. The value of the franchise has more than doubled since the opening of the new stadium, with a current estimate of over half a billion dollars by Forbes. They have paper profits of something in the neighborhood of $300M. To me, that needs to be factored into profit/loss somewhere, too.

[Oxtung]

Chief it's not fair when you come to this discussion loaded with resources to back up your argument!

[old nurse]

I'm not sure that's true. Money and wins

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/images/uploads/Payroll_Annual_Correlation.gif

 

I don't see something that looks like it has a high correlation here. It is the graph from your article. I recall that 1 was a perfect fit. While there is a positive trend it also would mean that there are plenty of cases where money does not equal wins. See Angels and Phillies last year. Winning records, lots of money spent, nowhere near the playoffs.

[drjim]

I agree with all the above, but I would add that they really don't have to turn a profit to turn a profit. The value of the franchise has more than doubled since the opening of the new stadium, with a current estimate of over half a billion dollars by Forbes. They have paper profits of something in the neighborhood of $300M. To me, that needs to be factored into profit/loss somewhere, too.

 

This is definitely true. I admit I am naive but I do believe the team when push the payroll past the revenue percentages when they are good and have players worth paying.

 

I don't think this past offseason was the time and I especially think Greinke and Sanchez were unrealistic and would have ultimately would have done more damage than good in the long run if the Twins had paid what was required to sign them.

 

They could have spent more on some stop gap guys but they were unsuccessful. I think it is for reasons other than merely being cheap.