Revere's Plate Discipline

[John Bonnes]

I was about 6 ft away from that ol ball catch he almost made tonight. He really got o or that. I was amazed.

[Riverbrian]

I was about 6 ft away from that ol ball catch he almost made tonight. He really got o or that. I was amazed.

So close... Just getting a glove on that ball is amazing enough. Decades will have to pass before you see a catch like that. So close!!!

 

How many players would even attempt it?

Of those... How many players could even get a glove on it?

 

That catch... If made... Would have been one of the best ever. You were 6 feet from almost seeing something historical.

 

If only he could have hung on. What an effort.

 

His catch last year on Vlad has to rank as one of the best ever. Twins Fans... hopefully... are starting to realize what this kid can do and hopefully appreciate it.

[TheLeviathan]

Ben Revere....leading the league in Magical Almosts

[FrodaddyG]

Ben Revere....leading the league in Magical Almosts

But if he makes that catch, (obviously one of the best of ALL TIME!) I bet Oakland just forfeits the game out of respect!

[Riverbrian]

But if he makes that catch, (obviously one of the best of ALL TIME!) I bet Oakland just forfeits the game out of respect!

Yeah... I got that coming. God forbid anyone should have a positive comment. My fault... Carry on pointing out every players flaws. That seems to come more naturally.

 

I just reviewed the tape on the attempted catch. I miss assessed it... It was a substandard effort. Not worth mentioning when we can razor focus on throwing arms and stats vs left handers at night in throwback jerseys.

[TheLeviathan]

It was a great effort. Hyperventilating over a non-catch starts to look silly - it reveals that you're looking for his successes only and not his failures. That non-catch was not a failure, but he has many other failing aspects of his game that are concerning. He's having a hell of a 2012 though, I hope it continues to trend upward.

[Riverbrian]

It was a great effort. Hyperventilating over a non-catch starts to look silly - it reveals that you're looking for his successes only and not his failures. That non-catch was not a failure, but he has many other failing aspects of his game that are concerning. He's having a hell of a 2012 though, I hope it continues to trend upward.

What Failures? After you answer that. Name a player that doesn't have any!!!

 

You call it hyperventilating... OK... I was saying... So Close... If he catches that... It would have been... Was I wrong?

[FrodaddyG]

What Failures? After you answer that. Name a player that doesn't have any!!!

 

You call it hyperventilating... OK... I was saying... So Close... If he catches that... It would have been... Was I wrong?

A complete lack of pop and the inability to draw a walk would be two large ones. Specifically the drawing a walk portion for a guy who should be a table setter, and relies entirely on batting average, which is a department he has been fortunate in to this point in the season.

[Riverbrian]

A complete lack of pop and the inability to draw a walk would be two large ones. Specifically the drawing a walk portion for a guy who should be a table setter, and relies entirely on batting average, which is a department he has been fortunate in to this point in the season.

OK... I agree... and lets not forget about his arm.

 

Now Name a player that doesn't have any failures!!!

[FrodaddyG]

OK... I agree... Now Name a player that doesn't have any failures!!!

That isn't the point. It's the most players' successes aren't as exclusively tied to one tool as Revere's are, in this case, his speed. Hoping dribblers continue to find holes every AB isn't a great way to expect sustained productivity. As has been pointed out before, one mild hamstring tweak or any dropoff in speed and Revere is essentially a useless player.

[Riverbrian]

That isn't the point. It's the most players' successes aren't as exclusively tied to one tool as Revere's are, in this case, his speed. Hoping dribblers continue to find holes every AB isn't a great way to expect sustained productivity. As has been pointed out before, one mild hamstring tweak or any dropoff in speed and Revere is essentially a useless player.

If he has a leg problem... He's done... I agree... His Speed is that important.

 

His Speed is probably top 5 in the Majors right now. I don't know maybe top two. I don't have a stopwatch.

His OF Glove is probably top 5 in the Majors right now. Subjective I know... But hopefully we won't deny his ability to catch the ball. I've seen more catches from him than I've seen in the past couple of decades from everyone else.

His ability to make contact is top 10. You can look that up.

 

So he has other things working for him.

 

But Yeah... If his legs go... You got a problem... I agree.

 

Just like if Adam Dunn loses his power.

Just like if Justin Morneau loses his ability to hit lefthanders.

Just like if Mariano Rivera loses his cutter.

Just like if Einstien has a labotomy.

Just like if Kate Hudson gets hit in the face by Peter Brady with a Football.

 

It alludes me why everyone is just hung up on what he can't do and waits for the failure that they are sure is coming. Meanwhile the guy keeps making plays. His legs are fine right now...

 

He's Young... he can add a little more discipline to his game as time goes on and draw a few more walks.

 

I choose to enjoy it and than I come to this site and everyone talks about the negatives. His Noodle arm... His lack of extra base hits... It's like being negative about Joey Votto because he can't play SS. Ben is who he is and what he is... Has been pretty good.

 

Mike Trout is not on this team!!! Nor is Ryan Braun. For us... That means we get to watch a player like Ben do what he's doing and it alludes me that some don't seem to be enjoying it.

 

I hope Aaron Hicks comes up and is an absolute monster I'd love to have Aaron and Ben in the Same OF... If Joe Benson comes up and starts battling his tail off... Great... If he can be that Extra Base machine with the rocket arm that everyone craves... Super... I'll gladly stand here and type the words that Ben should be the 4th OF'er or traded.

 

But... Not in 2012... with this team... and I don't think 2013 either...

 

I got Ben's back and it makes me seem like I got a man crush. I get that... I don't care... I'm just responding to what seems to be an endless string of negative posts about a 5-9 guy who's battling his tail off!!!

 

It was a hell of an effort. Hanging on a ten foot fence after running maybe 30 yards and getting his glove on the ball. If he would have made the catch... It would have been one of the all time greats... The conditions for that play to happen is such a rare thing. The Ball coming down to where the guy is hanging is lucky... Or being able to hang in the right spot is talent... It's a shame it didn't happen because it will be hard for those conditions to converge again. That's why you don't see it everyday.

 

I made a positive comment!!! And I'm sorry if that didn't sit well with some of you posters.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

I'd like to see more patient, professional at-bats from Revere. Take some strikes, be selective. Just because he can make solid contact, doesn't mean that he should offer at every pitch in the zone. He's a talented hitter, he shouldn't have a problem working counts and making contact with two strikes.

Revere's AB last night in the 8th provides an example for what he can do better: He decided he was going to bunt for a hit, so he offered at the first pitch he saw that he thought he could hit and popped it up for an easy out.

[Riverbrian]

I was thinking the same thing about that last at bat. Young players can try and force things at times.

 

Curt and others did a nice job laying out what Ben has been doing so far at the plate statistically in this thread. His discipline at the plate could use some improving.

[FrodaddyG]

I'm just responding to what seems to be an endless string of negative posts about a 5-9 guy who's battling his tail off!!!

Congratulations, you've just invoked the sound byte so ridiculous (and consistently used to justify poor players being on a roster) it spawned an entire Twins site for 6 years.

[Riverbrian]

Congratulations, you've just invoked the sound byte so ridiculous (and consistently used to justify poor players being on a roster) it spawned an entire Twins site for 6 years.

Thank you... Those words were chosen by me exactly for that purpose.

[Oxtung]

That isn't the point. It's the most players' successes aren't as exclusively tied to one tool as Revere's are...

Morneau, Willingham, Plouffe lose their power

Span's ability to play solid defense in OF

Almost any MI losing their ability to play defense (certainly any the Twins have had since...Knoblach?)

 

That's 7/8 fielders and every pitcher who's ability to play is almost exclusively tied to 1 attribute. The players who are able to lose their defining attribute and still be productive are exceptionally rare. So yes if Revere loses his speed & quickness he will add little to the Twins but that's true for just about every player.

[Curt]

I'd like to see more patient' date=' professional at-bats from Revere. Take some strikes, be selective. Just because he can make solid contact, doesn't mean that he should offer at every pitch in the zone. [/quote']

 

Revere does not have enough PA's to qualify yet (54 short by my count after last night's game) but, if he did, his z-Swing%, 51.9%, would the third lowest in the majors behind Jamey Carroll, 50.7%, and Martin Prado of the Braves, 51.7%. Mauer currently has the fourth lowest in the majors at 53.7% for additional perspective. So he is not offering at every pitch in the zone by a long shot.

 

As noted in the original post, he is swinging at too many pitches outside the strike zone (where he is merely average). Still, combined, if he had enough PAs to qualify, he would have the 17th lowest overall swing% in both leagues.

[Curt]

Revere does not have enough PA's to qualify yet (54 short by my count after last night's game) but, if he did, his z-Swing%, 51.9%, would the third lowest in the majors behind Jamey Carroll, 50.7%, and Martin Prado of the Braves, 51.7%. Mauer currently has the fourth lowest in the majors at 53.7% for additional perspective. So he is not offering at every pitch in the zone by a long shot.

 

As noted in the original post, he is swinging at too many pitches outside the strike zone (where he is merely average). Still, combined, if he had enough PAs to qualify, he would have the 17th lowest overall swing% in both leagues.

And... His contact%, 92.0%, would be fourth behind Marco Scutaro, 94.0%, Denard Span, 92.6%, and Michael Brantley, 92.6%.

 

His ball-in-play%, 39% would be tied for first with Ichiro.

[Oxtung]

And... His contact%, 92.0%, would be fourth behind Marco Scutaro, 94.0%, Denard Span, 92.6%, and Michael Brantley, 92.6%.

 

His ball-in-play%, 39% would be tied for first with Ichiro.

Sounds to me like some Span-Revere hit and runs are in order!

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

And... His contact%, 92.0%, would be fourth behind Marco Scutaro, 94.0%, Denard Span, 92.6%, and Michael Brantley, 92.6%.

 

His ball-in-play%, 39% would be tied for first with Ichiro.

These statistics don't provide for any variation for pitches in the strike zone, just because he's swinging at strikes doesn't mean they are good pitches to hit. Also he's swinging early in the count and making contact...

 

Revere is dead last among (qualifying) Twins hitters in pitches per plate appearance at 3.47. League average is 3.85. Mauer is at 4.31. Willingham 4.25. Carroll 3.98.

 

                  Age   PA   Pit Pit/PA
JoeMauer*          29  337  1451   4.31
JoshWillingham     33  353  1499   4.25
JameyCarroll       38  318  1267   3.98
RyanDoumit#        31  269  1057   3.93
DenardSpan*        28  355  1392   3.92
League Average                     3.85
TrevorPlouffe      26  259   992   3.83
BrianDozier        25  228   857   3.76
JustinMorneau*     31  283  1040   3.67
AlexiCasilla#      27  189   662   3.50
BenRevere*         24  231   801   3.47
Team Total       29.0 3302 12820   3.88

 

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table

Generated 7/14/2012.

 

Again, just because it's a strike doesn't mean you have to swing. This is very important for Revere, since he has so little power. If he could just work his way deeper into the counts and wait for the 1 pitch per at bat that he can really drive, pitchers would be more careful with him, thus, his BB rate would improve.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Morneau, Willingham, Plouffe lose their power

Span's ability to play solid defense in OF

Almost any MI losing their ability to play defense (certainly any the Twins have had since...Knoblach?)

 

That's 7/8 fielders and every pitcher who's ability to play is almost exclusively tied to 1 attribute. The players who are able to lose their defining attribute and still be productive are exceptionally rare. So yes if Revere loses his speed & quickness he will add little to the Twins but that's true for just about every player.

Short of a crippling injury, how does one loser power or lose their ability to play defense?

 

Revere walks a finer line than that. He doesn't have to "lose speed", he only has to "lose a step". He doesn't have Denard's patience at the plate (not historically, anyway). He doesn't have Denard's gap-hitting power. He doesn't have Denard's arm, as unimpressive as it may be.

 

Which means that if he loses a step and becomes the same speed as Denard, he's suddenly a vastly inferior player to Span. And it's not as if that sort of thing doesn't happen to base-burners on a regular basis. They don't have to "lose their speed", all it takes is a small hindering of their ability and suddenly, they're a below league average player.

 

Again, not wishing any ill will toward Revere, I'm just calling him out for what he is. A 1 1/2 tool player (speed, contact) who could fall on his face if he loses either one of those abilities because he literally has zero other redeeming qualities as a baseball player.

[Riverbrian]

Short of a crippling injury, how does one loser power or lose their ability to play defense?

 

 

Adam Dunn:

38 Homers in 2010 to 11 in 2011.

 

Joe Mauer:

28 Homers in 2009 to 9 in 2010.

 

Adrian Gonzalez

27 Homers in 2011 to 6 so far in 2012

 

Defense: Off the top of my head... Chuck Knoblauch started picking off people in the crowd with his throws for some reason. I'm sure there are example of good fielders whose error totals spiked and perhaps stayed there.

[Riverbrian]

Again, not wishing any ill will toward Revere, I'm just calling him out for what he is. A 1 1/2 tool player (speed, contact) who could fall on his face if he loses either one of those abilities because he literally has zero other redeeming qualities as a baseball player.

I should have included this in my last reply. Ben is a 3 tool player and superior at those 3 tools. I don't get the 1/2 part.

 

Speed, Defense and Hitting for average.

 

He is substandard at the other tools. Power and Arm Strength.

 

Justin Morneau is also a 3 tool player. Power, Hitting for Average(at least he was) and Defense(I think he does all right)

 

I don't know if Justin qualfies with his Arm and I'm pretty sure he doesn't qualify with his speed.

[Curt]

Revere swings too much? He has the 17th lowest swing percent in baseball.

 

Revere swings too early? See above. When is he not swinging? The middle of the count? Late in the count?

 

Revere swings at not very good strikes? Is that why he has the third lowest strike swing rate in baseball? Is that why he has the fourth highest contact rate? Is that why has has the highest rate of putting the ball in play? Is that why he is hitting over .300?

 

Revere isn't waiting for the 1 pitch he can really drive? Maybe he is getting it and when he does, he swings, makes contact, puts the ball in play and hits over .300.

[TheLeviathan]

OK... I agree... and lets not forget about his arm.

 

Now Name a player that doesn't have any failures!!!

By all means if I ever become a bubblegum chewing, cheerleading, reality denying schmuck about anyone feel free to hop on me for it. In the meantime recognize that and try and see how gooberish that is. Hell i hate Liriano but can still tip my cap at his success. Just the over-the-top apologist routine is so dumb.

[Riverbrian]

By all means if I ever become a bubblegum chewing, cheerleading, reality denying schmuck about anyone feel free to hop on me for it. In the meantime recognize that and try and see how gooberish that is. Hell i hate Liriano but can still tip my cap at his success. Just the over-the-top apologist routine is so dumb.

Likewise... If I ever become a downtrodden, cynical ass, overloaded with hypocrisy and self loathing. Stay behind your keyboard big boy.

 

I'm sure that Cap tipping you do means something to everyone amongst all the Hatred.

 

I typed something positive!!! OH MY GOD!!! Let's put a stop to that right now!!! No one should be able to get away with that... We can't have that on this site.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Adam Dunn:

38 Homers in 2010 to 11 in 2011.

 

Joe Mauer:

28 Homers in 2009 to 9 in 2010.

 

Adrian Gonzalez

27 Homers in 2011 to 6 so far in 2012

 

Defense: Off the top of my head... Chuck Knoblauch started picking off people in the crowd with his throws for some reason. I'm sure there are example of good fielders whose error totals spiked and perhaps stayed there.

Oh, come on. There's a difference between "losing power" and "having an awful year". Guys have awful years all the time and Joe's drop in power was concurrent to moving to a stadium that crushes lefties. Joe is doing quite well for himself, as is Dunn. Gonzalez will probably be back to crushing it by the end of the season or the beginning of next.

 

And Chuck Knoblauch was an aberration whose mind was his undoing. It's incredibly rare to see a guy play great defense and then suddenly drop off a cliff for no apparent reason.

[TheLeviathan]

I typed something positive!!! OH MY GOD!!! Let's put e able to get away with that... We can't have that on this site.

I typed something realistic and not obnoxiously fanboyish!!! OH MY GOD !!! We can't have that on the sire.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I should have included this in my last reply. Ben is a 3 tool player and superior at those 3 tools. I don't get the 1/2 part.

 

Speed, Defense and Hitting for average.

 

He is substandard at the other tools. Power and Arm Strength.

 

Justin Morneau is also a 3 tool player. Power, Hitting for Average(at least he was) and Defense(I think he does all right)

 

I don't know if Justin qualfies with his Arm and I'm pretty sure he doesn't qualify with his speed.

You're assuming that all tools were created equally. I'm pretty sure range is more important than arm strength and that power is more important than average.

 

Back to my point. Ben has two real tools. Contact and speed. Everything he does well is linked to those two tools.

 

And because one of those tools is speed, that's a dangerous tightrope to walk if you want continued success in the major leagues. Guys start off their careers all the time as speedy, defense-oriented contact hitters and they also fail all the time. The Twins have had a non-stop line of these guys pass through the organization for the past 15 years, most of them under the guise of "middle infielder". Over time, every one of them broke down and turned into a sub-standard player because their over-reliance on one tool wasn't enough to adjust to major league pitching. Or maybe they lost a step. When your skill set is so reliant on pure athleticism, it doesn't take much to go from slightly above average to well below in the blink of an eye.

[Riverbrian]

Oh, come on. There's a difference between "losing power" and "having an awful year". Guys have awful years all the time and Joe's drop in power was concurrent to moving to a stadium that crushes lefties.

 

And Chuck Knoblauch was an aberration. It's incredibly rare to see a guy play great defense and then suddenly drop off a cliff for no apparent reason.

I know... but for that year... Adam Dunn was worthless... You take his power away and you ain't got much. If it happens to Ben... Yeah we got a problem. Speed is pretty much what he's about.

 

Right now... He's running just fine... He might struggle with an injury in years to come but there is also the possibility that he keeps running into his 30's.

 

The whole point is that attributes can collapse for any player for a time and nearly every player has specific attributes that are crucial to the job they do. Saying Ben is a leg injury away from being worthless is valid but it also can be said that a wrist injury to Justin Morneau can do the same.

 

Speed declines as you age and so does power. Power is bat speed and you lose it over time as well.