KirbyDome89

IMO the sticking point here is the price to be paid for a potential short term tenure. 1) Not all prospects are created equally. Yes, they’re volatile, but Kiriloff, Lewis, and/or Romero have a much better chance of becoming productive major league players than even a 3-4th round pick this year. These guys aren’t locks, no prospects are, but too often players with varied skill sets across all levels of the minors are all grouped together as lottery tickets. 2) The question isn’t whether the Twins should make the move because they’re uncertain of their ability to contend in the next two years. I agree that the time to contend is supposed to be now. The goal shouldn’t be pushing the window back. If we’re talking 2020 and beyond there’s a good chance most of the current core is gone, and we’re looking at once again moving the goalposts for being competitive. Teams can, and should, be building be collecting pieces leading up to, and during their window of contention. 3) Even though this team is supposed to be contending, and adding Realmuto certainly helps, there is a point where the price becomes too great. Like I said, if the Twins were able to work out an extension, or I believed they would be willing to win the bid for him in FA then I can stomach what they’d give up. If he’s only here for 2 years then making the move for him, especially given the situation with Buxton and Sano, seems like a bigger gamble than holding onto minor league talent.

I would wager that lesser touted arms are even more volatile, which is to say that not all prospects aren't created equally. A shutdown bullpen is nice, but you need a starting staff capable of getting you through a 162 game season + at least 5-6 innings per playoff appearance. We've seen firsthand how subpar starting rotations can drag a bullpen down.

High level arms are going to take this team further than an elite catcher. The Twins can get by with an average catcher and good to elite position players; they aren't going anywhere in the postseason without multiple high end arms. This organization has shown no desire to add those types of pitchers in FA so growing it is our only hope at the moment. That doesn't mean Romero or Graterol will be top of the rotation guys but right now they're the best shot this team has at building a rotation that won't be bounced in a divisional round matchup. The question is whether what you're giving up is worth potentially only 2 years of service.

Giving up pitching like Romero or even Graterol kind of seems counter productive. I get that nothing is promised with Graterol, but this organization needs pitching help as much as they need a catcher so giving up either on top of Kiriloff might be a bit much for me. It really comes down to whether the Twins can, or in reality are willing, to extend or resign Realmuto. We're not going to like what they have to give up to get him. I can probably live with the price if they lock him up beyond 2020.

More than a little, but the team performance definitely hurt him. Brantley must be a popular guy amongst the players to be voted in outright.

I think we learned more about the Orioles than the Twins this series. I thought I knew what bad baseball looked like after watching the Twins. Baltimore just got swept in 4 games by a team that was 2-11 in their last 13 games coming into the series. Yuck.... Not that I think the outcome of this series or the next will change the Twins' plan for the deadline but hollow victories against two awful teams shouldn't change their stance.

I certainly have my disagreements with Molitor's decision making, but the heat he takes for poor fundamentals makes no sense to me either. Those are things players learn before the minor leagues, and they're reinforced on their way to the major league level. If players are called up without understanding how to throw to the correct base, bunt, run the bases, ect. then that's a developmental failure. It isn't unfair of Molitor to expect players that players have the ability to execute basic fundamental plays. I have a hard time pinning poor fundamentals squarely on the new FO because a lot of the roster spent their time in the minors under the old regime. There are a good number of players who have been coached in the minors under this new group, so the current FO gets a seat at the table too. You're right, they were given a lot of credit for Buxton's "turnaround," last season, and in general they received praise for the success the team had. I think I fall in the same camp as you; if the FO can soak up the success of last season, then they should be held responsible for the disaster that is this season. Saying that the FO can't share blame because Buxton, Sano, and Dozier aren't "their guys," is having your cake and eating it too. Personally, I didn't give them a ton of credit for last seasons run, because they didn't really do much of anything in the offseason, or during the season, to help the team. They ran through a string of awful waiver claims to patch a rotation together and they waffled back and forth at the trade deadline. They had their "observation," year so they got a pass for inactivity, and I can't really blame them for not immediately turning to FA to bolster a 100+ loss team during the first months of their tenure. The core of this team was intact when Falvey and Levine took over, so if I can't give them a ton of credit for the WC last year, I can't completely throw them under the bus for the results this season. That's the best case to be made for giving them another year or two. I think everybody acknowledges that the struggles of Buxton, Sano, and Dozier are the largest culprit for the way this season has gone. That doesn't absolve the FO from any blame, especially when their action/inaction has directly, and tangibly contributed to how awful this season has been. I like the last point you made, and I don't think it's really talked about. If the FO really didn't want Molitor after last season then why hand out the extension? I have a hard time believing that he gets another 3 years without the blessing of the PBO. IMO he's become kind of a scapegoat for some of the roster mismanagement of the FO.

I agree that at the core of the down season is the failure of Buxton and Sano. I'm not certain criticism outside that is "picking at the edges," though. Odorizzi and Lynn both had serious question marks when they came over, and we've seen why in each case. Odorizzi has quietly been worse than his 17' campaign that had people worried. Lynn's mission to prove that teams indeed can hand out a bad one year contract has gained much more attention. Morrison is a black hole. I was high on the Reed signing, but he's been awful. That's 2/3 of their FA "haul," that has played a significant role in this disaster of a season, and that's not counting Rodney's inability to actually close out games. The fact that Wilson, Petit, LaMarre, ect. made the roster is an indictment. Having an actual 4th OFer instead of a journeyman who got hot during ST would've been a good idea. If they were so down on Garver's ability to catch then why not add a serviceable major league catcher?

I haven't seen anybody blame the FO for Buxton, Sano, Dozier, ect. regressing, but they shouldn't get to contribute to the mess and then shrug off any blame for how this season has gone. Hughes had no business throwing any innings as a starting pitcher this year. None. He was cooked prior to last season. Haley and Kinley soaked up a valuable roster spot for a month before each doomed experiment mercifully ended. Pitching was, and continues to be, a need for this team; forcing bad/ill-equipped arms onto the roster is part of the problem.

I was really impressed with the draft last year. I understand that picking 20th compared to 1st won't yield the same kind of excitement of flexibility, and maybe the bar was set too high, but this year felt like a step back towards "comfortable." The $$ savings from drafting Jeffers in the 2nd could've been obtained by taking him where he was projected to go. It just seemed like a very "meh," pick. In general I have 0 issue with drafting bats that will play at the major league level. I'm also all for taking the best talent and never drafting based on need, which this FO has done. We aren't going to see (fingers crossed) high picks spent on relievers with the hope they can be converted to a starting pitcher. It's baseball; nobody would be shocked if the group taken this year turns out to be better than the last, but the draft process certainly felt different this time around.

Whether it does or doesn't I think I'm already there... This FO is legitimately part of the problem at this point.

The shuttle would make sense if the active roster was full of good players and the team was actually trying to contend. There's really no excuse for it when other members of the bullpen either don't belong on a major league roster, or they're underperforming and have options.

I get that, but I think every team is trying to give up as little as possible while also bringing in as much as possible in every transaction so I don't feel like the Twins dumping guys with less than one year remaining now, even if it is selling low, will have an impact on offers they receive down the line. Like I said, each side does their own valuation and determines what their piece is worth, and what they're willing to give up to obtain their desired target. If the Twins feel a "best offer," isn't enough there's nothing stopping them from walking away if selling low has negative ramifications. I just don't see that as the case in this instance.

I don't see any upside in holding onto expiring contracts that could potentially be moved. Every transaction between opposing clubs occurs on an individual level. Each side does their own valuation and based on that a deal is struck or each side walks away. The Twins aren't going to suddenly receive better offers down the line because they refused to trade Lynn in 18'. IMO refusing to move on from expiring contracts in a year when the team clearly isn't going to compete is consciously declining a cost free opportunity to improve the future of the team, even if that chance of improvement is slim. Not that I wanted this situation to arise, but the Twins aren't competing this year. Even if the (likely) return is a handful of lottery tickets, why not at least see if they can cash in rather than watch those players walk for nothing. Who cares how many holes the roster has for the last 2 months? At this point their concern should be draft position and player development. Period.

After giving up 3 and 4 ERs respectively to Bos and TX, Belisle has only allowed 1 run in his last two innings pitched. He's clearly started to turn things around. Idk why everybody is bitching about sending out the younger, more talented Busenitiz or DFA'ing Jorge to keep Belisle's veteran presence around.....

Lynn and Rodney certainly played a role in digging an early season hole. I can't blame the FO for Buxton, Sano, Dozier, ect being miserable. They assembled what was supposed to be a better team around that group, but that doesn't mean they're immune to sharing blame for how the season has gone. It's already been pointed out that their FA signings were bargains, and at various times they've shown why. I think we can all agree that the lineups of late have been putrid. Injuries happen, of course, but a back up plan has to be in place. Why not sign a 4th OFer before the season when it was clear the team desperately needed it? If they had such little faith in Garver (Wilson hogging innings would suggest so) then why wasn't a back up catching option addressed? These issues were constantly pointed out in threads. Instead they opted to bring in Morrison, who has been pathetic, but we should give the FO a pass because the guy had a career year last season? If we're crediting this FO with the WC run last year then they have to share the blame for how this season has gone. tl;dr The FO doesn't deserve the lion's share of the blame but the idea that they set this team up for serious contention and everybody else faltered just isn't true.

Cash makes me cringe because it's doesn't improve anything other than ownership's bottom line. I don't think MLB has the kind of stipulations or protections on transactions that the NBA does but I could be wrong. I said before the season started that the money allocated to Morrison would've been better spent elsewhere. He hasn't shown anything to make me think handing him any sort of contract is a worthwhile investment. If the Twins get a decent offer they should take it. He's a FA next year so they're bidding the rest of the league regardless. I agree, anybody on a short term deal or not part of "the future," is fair game. A lottery ticket is better than nothing, it's just unfortunate that almost everybody who is available has struggled this season. Given the complete lack of interest in signing Lynn this offseason, and his horrible start to the season, I doubt the Twins get much more than a nominal return. Who knows though, maybe somebody gets desperate.

1) Are we even sure Ervin is going to pitch major league innings before the deadline? It's been nothing but bad news regarding his recovery. 2) The Twins should be paying teams to take Morrison, not the other way around. I kid...kind of... 3) If they can keep Escobar around as a super utility guy I'm fine with not moving him 4) It's looking like mostly peanuts for the rest of the group that could be moved. Even when selling this team manages to underwhelm.

Belisle is a washed up veteran arm who lacks an option right? Yeah he'll stay. The more things change the more they stay the same...

Remember how excited everybody was for things to change with the new FO? It's getting to the point where we're watching two versions of the same broken machine....

You're right, he beat up on KC, Detroit, and CWS in May and he was fell flat against STL and LA. I would guess that his increased chase rate and % of pitches in the strike zone has as much to do with facing some pretty poor offensive lineups as it does with him rediscovering his form. Hats off to him for pitching well against Cleveland and LA this month though. As a nitpick I would quantify his positive May-June starts as more than "a few," but overall I agree with what you're saying; the jury is still out on what he'll be moving forward. I'm also not sure that his 5 years prior to TJ surgery are particularly relevant other than to highlight the fact he hasn't gotten back to where he was.

I've always pushed back against the notion that great players make poor managers because the game came naturally to them. I think that reasoning cuts both ways. Couldn't we just as easily say that great players should make great managers because they're able to perceive/understand aspects of the game that are beyond the scope of the average player? For the record I don't subscribe to either school of thought. IMO teaching is a skill, and some are just better at it than others. I don't think success during a playing career necessarily grooms or precludes anybody from being a great manager. I certainly agree that managers who were fringe players may have an advantage in relating to current players in a similar position, especially since a good chunk of every roster is made up of guys who have to wring out every ounce to stick in the big leagues. I would file that under interpersonal skills, and reiterate that success during a playing career isn't and indicator one way or another of an individual's ability to communicate.

I think the bullpen criticism of Molitor is more than fair. It's one part of the game he directly influences and IMO his management of the pen has been suspect during his tenure. The poor base running, defense, situational knowledge, bunting, ect is much more difficult to pin on him. I've said it in other threads but I don't think it's the job of a major league manager to teach fundamentals that these guys learn in rookie ball, if not before that time. That doesn't mean he can't reinforce those fundamentals or impart his own knowledge in those areas but I have a hard time believing that isn't being done. If Buxton, Sano, Dozier, Morrison, ect. weren't imploding this thread doesn't exist. It's really that simple. Molitor has had largely the same warts throughout his tenure with the Twins. I don't consider myself a big supporter, and I won't shed any tears if he's gone at some point during/after the season. If things continue as they have been change is inevitable. I get that the manager is always the fall guy for the players, I just don't think we're suddenly seeing a worse version of Molitor than the one that won 85 games last year.

I wasn't suggesting the move was nothing but a punishment. IMO it's obvious the Twins aren't happy with Sano's current direction, and haven't been for quite a while. I can't imagine Sano is happy with his performance either. Disgruntled seems like a fairly apt description of each side. If the quibble is over the word itself then feel free to plug in unhappy, disappointed, ect.

His performance on the field justified being sent down. His highly touted counterpart has struggled even more yet we've never seen Buxton move all the way down to A ball. He's clearly struggled with mechanical issues yet the Twins had him working on them in AAA Do I have hard evidence to say that there's more to the demotion than performance/mechanics, or that the Twins weren't happy with the direction Sano was going? No, but I don't think it's a stretch to say the move to send him all the way to Ft. Myers suggests each of those scenarios.