KirbyDome89

Much more concerned with approach/swing than the lbs... SSS and all, the 1-10 isn't encouraging but the K/BB ratio is. I wanted to see him back asap but I was hoping it was because he hit his way back onto the active roster.

I'm not ragging on how he's pitched this season. I'm not sure why we need to lump in a number of poor starts through July and August with his September starts & this season. His ERA entering his August 22nd start last season was essentially the same as when he took the mound July 4th. That isn't inaccurate and I'm not sure what about it is misleading. He wasn't pitching at the level he is now during that stretch. It doesn't take anything away from what he's doing now to recognize that.

So expect aiming for mediocrity to continue as the status quo?

We all root for guys that are drafted by the Twins. There's more invested from a fan perspective, and players are tracked through the minors. There's always hype surrounding high draft picks, and with that comes hope that they'll deliver on that promise. I get all of that, but I think it's tainting the view some have of Gibson, and IMO it's certainly a driving force for this call to extend him right now. If Gibson wasn't a product of the minor league system, and the Twins had traded for him last offseason, how hard would anybody be pushing for an extension? This is splitting hairs here but Gibson's ERA was higher exiting last July than it was upon entry. He turned in a few duds through mid August too. He didn't really start pitching well until late August, so labeling it as one good month of 17' isn't all that inaccurate. You're right, guys figure it out at different times. Late development happens: Arrieta, Turner, Dickey, you can throw Bautista on that list, and I'm sure there are more if we spend 5 mins digging, but those guys are the exception that prove the rule. For every Jake Arrieta how many guys pop up for a brief period then fizzle back to previous production levels? Can this version of Gibson be who he is for the next few seasons? Sure, but is that a gamble I want to take by extending him right now? Not a chance. If some club feels he's worth the risk and makes a good offer then the Twins should happily make that deal. If not then they have Gibson for 19' and they can use some of that $$ they'll hoard this offseason to bring him back as a FA.

I guess it depends on what definition of we're going with here. If the goal is to win a bad a division and get eliminated in the divisional round then yeah, they might be able to pull that off without Sano or Buxton. I'm skeptical this team will be much more than that without serious contributions from each of them. Dozier is definitely gone, Mauer and Escobar might be following him. There catching situation is bleak. Is Garver capable of playing full time? Will Kepler figure it out and become more than a platoon OFer? Right now the Twins have Rosario and maybe Polanco as position players you can rely making plus contributions. Berrios can anchor the starting rotation, Romero brings hope, and if you want to you can toss Gibson's hat in that ring, although I'm hesitant to trust him. That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for 2019. Maybe Lewis, Kirilloff, and Graterol all reach their ceilings and the Twins actually make some noise in the playoffs, but I'm getting tired of this window constantly shifting into the future...

I'm not sure what's accomplished by comparing Berrios' debut to Gibson's. Gibson may have had a less rocky intro but those two aren't even in the same stratosphere in terms of where they went from that point. I'm definitely in favor of looking up the numbers, but shouldn't we be including all of them? If we're blaming his early struggles on recovery, fatigue, and being a rookie then what's the explanation for how awful he was in 16' and 17'? You're disregarding a lot of really bad pitching to say that 15' + this season + a handful of starts at the end of last year are the "real," Gibson, and that's who he'll be going forward. That's kind of why I'm making the point about being cautious with an extension, especially when they can wait at least another year. There's no f****** way I'm handing Gibson an extension that ends at age 35.

You watched him pitch the last few years right? There's plenty of reason to doubt... I'm happy that he's throwing well this season at 31, but at the very least the Twins should wait until the end of next season to make any sort of decision on bringing him back. This team just sold a high draft pick to get out from under 1.5 seasons of a rushed extension, I'd prefer that mistake wasn't repeated.

Which Gibson, 13'-17' or 2018? I agree that whatever the Twins get back in a trade won't have near the impact in 19' that Gibson would if he builds off of this season, but you're also taking a pretty serious leap of faith that this is the pitcher Gibson is going to be for the next 1.4 years.

Why risk the extension if they have all that $$$ and "flexibility?" If he continues to pitch like this through next season then address the idea of an extension or just sign him as a FA. I guess I'm surprised that so many are comfortable extending a guy, who up until last September looked like he didn't belong on the active roster. I get that he threw a nice game tonight but...yeah... IMO Gibson is still much closer to Nick Blackburn than Brad Radke, i.e. not a guy I'm dying to commit to long term, especially into his 30s. If another team is certain Gibson has truly turned a corner, and makes an offer that reflects that belief the Twins would be fools not to take it.

I agree with Tom, it's nice that the Twins are on the other side of the "play the game the right way," argument. I'd love to see Molitor, Dozier, and the rest of the team that was vocal about their displeasure towards opponents earlier in the season do the same here and call out Cash, Archer, ect. for acting like asses. Throwing at Escobar because you're pissed after imploding is one of the weakest things I've seen in a while. TB should be embarrassed but hey, Dozier shouldn't have clapped his hands.....

I'm not advocating that they don't look to trade for talent. I'm saying the price they'll ultimately have to pay seems a bit high for only 2 years of said talent.

IMO the sticking point here is the price to be paid for a potential short term tenure. 1) Not all prospects are created equally. Yes, they’re volatile, but Kiriloff, Lewis, and/or Romero have a much better chance of becoming productive major league players than even a 3-4th round pick this year. These guys aren’t locks, no prospects are, but too often players with varied skill sets across all levels of the minors are all grouped together as lottery tickets. 2) The question isn’t whether the Twins should make the move because they’re uncertain of their ability to contend in the next two years. I agree that the time to contend is supposed to be now. The goal shouldn’t be pushing the window back. If we’re talking 2020 and beyond there’s a good chance most of the current core is gone, and we’re looking at once again moving the goalposts for being competitive. Teams can, and should, be building be collecting pieces leading up to, and during their window of contention. 3) Even though this team is supposed to be contending, and adding Realmuto certainly helps, there is a point where the price becomes too great. Like I said, if the Twins were able to work out an extension, or I believed they would be willing to win the bid for him in FA then I can stomach what they’d give up. If he’s only here for 2 years then making the move for him, especially given the situation with Buxton and Sano, seems like a bigger gamble than holding onto minor league talent.

I would wager that lesser touted arms are even more volatile, which is to say that not all prospects aren't created equally. A shutdown bullpen is nice, but you need a starting staff capable of getting you through a 162 game season + at least 5-6 innings per playoff appearance. We've seen firsthand how subpar starting rotations can drag a bullpen down.

High level arms are going to take this team further than an elite catcher. The Twins can get by with an average catcher and good to elite position players; they aren't going anywhere in the postseason without multiple high end arms. This organization has shown no desire to add those types of pitchers in FA so growing it is our only hope at the moment. That doesn't mean Romero or Graterol will be top of the rotation guys but right now they're the best shot this team has at building a rotation that won't be bounced in a divisional round matchup. The question is whether what you're giving up is worth potentially only 2 years of service.

Giving up pitching like Romero or even Graterol kind of seems counter productive. I get that nothing is promised with Graterol, but this organization needs pitching help as much as they need a catcher so giving up either on top of Kiriloff might be a bit much for me. It really comes down to whether the Twins can, or in reality are willing, to extend or resign Realmuto. We're not going to like what they have to give up to get him. I can probably live with the price if they lock him up beyond 2020.

More than a little, but the team performance definitely hurt him. Brantley must be a popular guy amongst the players to be voted in outright.

I think we learned more about the Orioles than the Twins this series. I thought I knew what bad baseball looked like after watching the Twins. Baltimore just got swept in 4 games by a team that was 2-11 in their last 13 games coming into the series. Yuck.... Not that I think the outcome of this series or the next will change the Twins' plan for the deadline but hollow victories against two awful teams shouldn't change their stance.

I certainly have my disagreements with Molitor's decision making, but the heat he takes for poor fundamentals makes no sense to me either. Those are things players learn before the minor leagues, and they're reinforced on their way to the major league level. If players are called up without understanding how to throw to the correct base, bunt, run the bases, ect. then that's a developmental failure. It isn't unfair of Molitor to expect players that players have the ability to execute basic fundamental plays. I have a hard time pinning poor fundamentals squarely on the new FO because a lot of the roster spent their time in the minors under the old regime. There are a good number of players who have been coached in the minors under this new group, so the current FO gets a seat at the table too. You're right, they were given a lot of credit for Buxton's "turnaround," last season, and in general they received praise for the success the team had. I think I fall in the same camp as you; if the FO can soak up the success of last season, then they should be held responsible for the disaster that is this season. Saying that the FO can't share blame because Buxton, Sano, and Dozier aren't "their guys," is having your cake and eating it too. Personally, I didn't give them a ton of credit for last seasons run, because they didn't really do much of anything in the offseason, or during the season, to help the team. They ran through a string of awful waiver claims to patch a rotation together and they waffled back and forth at the trade deadline. They had their "observation," year so they got a pass for inactivity, and I can't really blame them for not immediately turning to FA to bolster a 100+ loss team during the first months of their tenure. The core of this team was intact when Falvey and Levine took over, so if I can't give them a ton of credit for the WC last year, I can't completely throw them under the bus for the results this season. That's the best case to be made for giving them another year or two. I think everybody acknowledges that the struggles of Buxton, Sano, and Dozier are the largest culprit for the way this season has gone. That doesn't absolve the FO from any blame, especially when their action/inaction has directly, and tangibly contributed to how awful this season has been. I like the last point you made, and I don't think it's really talked about. If the FO really didn't want Molitor after last season then why hand out the extension? I have a hard time believing that he gets another 3 years without the blessing of the PBO. IMO he's become kind of a scapegoat for some of the roster mismanagement of the FO.

I agree that at the core of the down season is the failure of Buxton and Sano. I'm not certain criticism outside that is "picking at the edges," though. Odorizzi and Lynn both had serious question marks when they came over, and we've seen why in each case. Odorizzi has quietly been worse than his 17' campaign that had people worried. Lynn's mission to prove that teams indeed can hand out a bad one year contract has gained much more attention. Morrison is a black hole. I was high on the Reed signing, but he's been awful. That's 2/3 of their FA "haul," that has played a significant role in this disaster of a season, and that's not counting Rodney's inability to actually close out games. The fact that Wilson, Petit, LaMarre, ect. made the roster is an indictment. Having an actual 4th OFer instead of a journeyman who got hot during ST would've been a good idea. If they were so down on Garver's ability to catch then why not add a serviceable major league catcher?

I haven't seen anybody blame the FO for Buxton, Sano, Dozier, ect. regressing, but they shouldn't get to contribute to the mess and then shrug off any blame for how this season has gone. Hughes had no business throwing any innings as a starting pitcher this year. None. He was cooked prior to last season. Haley and Kinley soaked up a valuable roster spot for a month before each doomed experiment mercifully ended. Pitching was, and continues to be, a need for this team; forcing bad/ill-equipped arms onto the roster is part of the problem.

I was really impressed with the draft last year. I understand that picking 20th compared to 1st won't yield the same kind of excitement of flexibility, and maybe the bar was set too high, but this year felt like a step back towards "comfortable." The $$ savings from drafting Jeffers in the 2nd could've been obtained by taking him where he was projected to go. It just seemed like a very "meh," pick. In general I have 0 issue with drafting bats that will play at the major league level. I'm also all for taking the best talent and never drafting based on need, which this FO has done. We aren't going to see (fingers crossed) high picks spent on relievers with the hope they can be converted to a starting pitcher. It's baseball; nobody would be shocked if the group taken this year turns out to be better than the last, but the draft process certainly felt different this time around.

Whether it does or doesn't I think I'm already there... This FO is legitimately part of the problem at this point.

The shuttle would make sense if the active roster was full of good players and the team was actually trying to contend. There's really no excuse for it when other members of the bullpen either don't belong on a major league roster, or they're underperforming and have options.

I get that, but I think every team is trying to give up as little as possible while also bringing in as much as possible in every transaction so I don't feel like the Twins dumping guys with less than one year remaining now, even if it is selling low, will have an impact on offers they receive down the line. Like I said, each side does their own valuation and determines what their piece is worth, and what they're willing to give up to obtain their desired target. If the Twins feel a "best offer," isn't enough there's nothing stopping them from walking away if selling low has negative ramifications. I just don't see that as the case in this instance.

I don't see any upside in holding onto expiring contracts that could potentially be moved. Every transaction between opposing clubs occurs on an individual level. Each side does their own valuation and based on that a deal is struck or each side walks away. The Twins aren't going to suddenly receive better offers down the line because they refused to trade Lynn in 18'. IMO refusing to move on from expiring contracts in a year when the team clearly isn't going to compete is consciously declining a cost free opportunity to improve the future of the team, even if that chance of improvement is slim. Not that I wanted this situation to arise, but the Twins aren't competing this year. Even if the (likely) return is a handful of lottery tickets, why not at least see if they can cash in rather than watch those players walk for nothing. Who cares how many holes the roster has for the last 2 months? At this point their concern should be draft position and player development. Period.