chpettit19

I can't remember where I read it, but sounds like Twins offered more than that, but Greene wanted to go back to Atl. Can't blame him either. If given the choice between those two teams I'd pick the Braves right now, too.

It's both. Like the original article said. The players need to play better and make the plays they should be capable of making. And the manager needs to put his players in the best positions to give them the best chance to be successful. It's Rocco's job to hold Colome accountable for his awful pitching. Colome didn't come running out of the bullpen on his own. Rocco shares responsibility by continuing to put Colome in games when it was clear for weeks that Colome wasn't right and couldn't get outs. It was Rocco's job to put the team in the best position to win that game in Oakland and pulling his 3rd best defensive player to give himself his worst possible fielding IF (Arraez, Polanco, Blankenhorn, Tortuga left to right is atrocious and Rocco has to know that) should be something Rocco is criticized for. Yes, they are plays the guys should make, and do make 90% of the time, but Rocco also put the team in a situation that had a higher likelihood of failure by putting a pitcher on the mound that was clearly struggling at all time levels and putting his worst possible IF defense behind him. I don't think anyone has said the players shouldn't be held accountable for completely falling apart to start the year, but acting like Rocco hasn't made mistakes that put the team in less than ideal situations is ignoring a real part of the problem. None of us can speak to the clubhouse or what ST was like or if Rocco and his staff are doing things to help the players right the ship, but when almost every player on the team is playing well below expectations, and looking unprepared to play basic, fundamental baseball, one has to question if there's a failure in how things are being run that leads to such teamwide struggles.

What makes you say the farm doesn't appear to have much help? Just curious as the system is pretty well regarded around the people who write about such things for a living.

They won't add Larnach until they've gone through all the guys already on the roster. Not going to risk losing someone on waivers until they know they don't need/want them or feel Larnach is ready to come up and stick. Which could be real soon if Cave keeps doing what he's doing and Larnach is looking good in St Paul and the team keeps losing. But no reason to add him until he's replacing someone on the big league squad.

To be fair there's no reason to believe that he'd have been called up today had the Twins not been short multiple corner OFs and their 1B. It is entirely possible he still would have been called up and this was their plan all along, but this isn't exactly them saying "now he's ready and he's replacing 'player x'." Cave isn't a great player, but I don't think anyone could have honestly expected him to be this incredibly bad. Kepler is out. Garlick is out. Sano is out. The timing certainly doesn't make the optics look good and gives the impression the Twins were planning to manipulate service time from the jump, but that's ignoring a lot of other variables.

Garlick was on the 40 man already. Bringing Broxton in is more than just calling 1 guy up and sending 1 down. He would certainly help defensively and with speed on the bases, but the Twins don't steal or really care about speed on the bases (Buxton hitting behind Cruz is a pretty clear indication of how low on the priority list speed on the bases is, and my #1 annoyance about Rocco). I wouldn't argue that the skills Broxton brings are more certain than Rooker or Cave right now. But he's a quite limited player that isn't really improving things drastically. I wouldn't be mad if they called him up, and it's not an outrageous idea, but it's a lateral move, in my opinion. Kirilloff and Larnach provide a much better chance of making a real difference if they can hit the way we hope, and somewhat expect. And strangely I believe tomorrow (maybe Saturday?) is the day that Kirilloff can be called up and play the rest of the year and still get an extra year of control*. The team clearly needs a shake up of some sort to get things righted and maybe Broxton is the answer to that. But some comments come across as if people think he's a much better player than he is. He isn't Buxton 2.0. He isn't Buxton lite. He isn't a poor man's Buxton. He's a bad hitter who can run fast. *For the record I don't think the Twins kept him down simply to get an extra year of service, but I don't think they were sad about it.

Don't get the calls for Broxton. He's a career .209/.297/.388 hitter. Strikes out just as much as Sano and Cave. Definitely better speed and defense than our current corner OFs, but he wasn't available on a minor league deal with no post-ST opt out because he's a season saver. His ceiling is late inning defensive replacement. He's not the answer to the Twins' problems right now unless you're hoping the Twins become those Mariner teams that had like 9 gold glovers who all hit .200 and couldn't win.

Losing 1 player off the team drastically changed the clubhouse atmosphere? Feels like a drastic exaggeration of Rosario's impact on the clubhouse. Professional athletes are used to having teammates come and go. You think they all made it through the minors with the same teammates year to year? They barely had the same teammates from month to month or week to week in the minors. Cruz, Donaldson, Buxton, Sano, Arraez, Tortuga, etc. can't fill the void in the clubhouse that Eddie left? They're all just moping around the clubhouse cuz they don't have Eddie there to lead them and keep the atmosphere where it should be? Feels like a bad take to me.

If you're going to attach this group of Twins with the teams from nearly 20 years ago it's quite silly to say you can't speak to them in comparison to the teams 30 years ago. Unless 20 years is the cutoff for when one completely different combination of players can be compared to a current combination of players.

Agree with you on Kirilloff for sure. Wouldn't be against seeing Larnach (both of those depending how they've looked in St Paul and assuming they haven't been garbage there). But Duran and Balazovic don't solve any current issues unless your plan is to put them in the pen and give them 2 straight years without anything near starters work. If your plan is to have them be cogs in the starting rotation for the next 6 or 7 years I think that'd be a terrible mistake to make. Starting pitching hasn't been a problem for the Twins. They'll need as many starting arms as they can get to make it through this season. So we're going to need Dobnak, Shoemaker, Happ, Thorpe, Duran, Balazovic, and probably 3 or 4 other guys to start games this year. Can't afford to start cutting guys in May. Shuffling up and down between AAA and MLB, in and out of the pen, etc. is going to be necessary all year. Shoemaker is going to have to get used to starting on long rest and figure out a way to perform better than yesterday cuz he's not starting every 5 or 6 days for the entire season. Hitters are a different story. They need to start showing signs of life or changes need to happen. That doesn't mean we need Sano, Polanco, Kepler, and Garver to all start hitting .400 and slugging .800 but they have to show they're turning things around. Sano is the least of my worries (in the sense that he is the most likely to get back to his typical self, not that I love his skillset), but those other 3 I am quite concerned are just not starter quality guys. Luckily none of them are paid like elite starters and it isn't unreasonable to have Kepler as 4th OF, Garver as backup C (hopefully Jeffers starts hitting), and Polanco as utility IF.

Buxton, Cruz, Donaldson*, Arraez, and Simmons are the only bats I feel good about right now. You don't want to hit Simmons high in the order, but he's perfect in his role at the back. I'd put the other 4 in the first 4 spots in the lineup and then cross my fingers for the 5-8 spots. That's the real problem. We have 4 spots in the order that are far less than reliable right now. Part of the struggle is the argument that Polanco, Sano, and Kepler need to get their timing down so they can get going, but they're killing rallies in the mean time. Tomorrow is the cutoff for step 1 of service time stuff (I believe) so maybe we start seeing young guys in the near future if the veterans don't get going and the L's continue. *Assuming he's returning close to 100% healthy

He was drafted in 2017. Yes, he's 26, but it's not like he's been wasting away in the minors for 10 years. He's had 2 full minor league seasons. And he's not a top 100 type prospect they're ignoring. He's a decent prospect with big time power and nothing else. Kirilloff has a much bigger complaint than Rooker does.

There's a lot to be lost by having him get ripped apart by major league pitching. It can set him back or destroy him all together. He made his debut in the postseason because he had to. Injuries to a number of guys ahead of him was the only reason he played that day. And they knew he had his timing down because they'd been watching him mash in St Paul, not get shredded by ST pitchers. There probably has never been a time in his life where he was feeling better from a psyche and timing perspective than last year when he got to see the same pitching day in and day out and lock in on his timing. Prospects on good teams have to earn their spot. What message does it send to the rest of the team when they watch a prospect struggle but replace one of them anyways? Is that sending "we're trying to win it all this year" messages? The idea is to put the best 26 guys out there each and every day. The fact is that Kirilloff is not one of the best 26 guys today. That could change tomorrow, April 1, April 25, May 15, June 22, July 4, August 1, September 25, or sometime next year. If you're trying to win a world series you don't put your prospect out there simply because he's your top prospect. He needs to earn it like every other guy. And he hasn't done that.

I think sending Kirilloff to the back fields when they did was more about getting him back on track and not ruining his confidence by having him continue to get shredded as ST rosters get smaller and he faces real MLB pitchers more and more. Gave him the chance to stop pressing and just focus on getting himself right. Not worried about each and every AB helping or hurting his chances at the big club. Larnach looks real comfortable right now and I'm excited to see him at some point this year. Mauer with power. Kepler definitely needs to flip the switch pretty quick here. Especially if they still plan on having him leadoff.

No, this data was not always available. This is an incredibly new set of information. And the idea that our trend setting FO would have this data from their support group is ridiculous. No major league team has the resources to track this stuff on their own. Its why companies like SIS exist. And once a team goes to them with a request for new information it takes a year or 2 to get the data together and finalize the algorithms and data. And, while those guys at SIS are crazy smart, this is one of the more questionable data sets out there.

So you're basically asking 3 starts at each of the 4 spots? 12-15 starts? That would be nice. Don't think that's a crazy ask. I'll give you that. But if he gets off to a 4 for 31 start against major league pitchers with scouting reports and trying much harder to get him out than the guys he was facing in ST who were still working on things do you think that's good for his development? I said in that other comment that I don't think there's any rules preventing him from being in the major league clubhouse when the team is in town. One of the nice things about AAA being in St Paul now. Even if I give you the idea they could get him decent amount of ABs in the first month that doesn't automatically make it useful. If he gets sliced up by the best pitchers on the planet while trying to find his swing and timing then has to be sent down that isn't productive. Him being the top hitting prospect doesn't mean he's ready. We all wanted Buxton up because he was the top hitting prospect (better prospect than Kirilloff in fact) and the team gave us what we wanted. It set him back years. The next year they wanted to give him a confidence boost so he hit in the 3 hole to start the year and he had to be sent back down after that and set him back again. Kirilloff has played 1 competitive game since 2019 when he was good, but not insane at AA. There is no reason to start his clock by having him on the opening day roster when he clearly isn't ready to hit right now and you run a very high chance of setting him back when he can't hang at the major league level. Let the kid get his swing and timing right and call him up then. If that's 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 months, or the whole season it shouldn't matter. That platoon OFer you're not concerned about getting ABs for has a real life .803 OPS against righties. That isn't something we're crossing our fingers and hoping for because he's the top prospect. Everyone we're talking about having Kirilloff replace, or take 3 starts from, has real life production at the major league level. If your hope is Kirilloff can be the left hand bat in a platoon with Rooker he isn't the prospect we think he is. The hope should be he can tell Rooker to go sit down cuz he's playing 155 games and mashing any and everyone thrown at him, not that he's Jake Cave. We all want to see Kirilloff up and mashing. Lets give him the chance to get his swing right so we don't see him up and flailing before going back down. There will be guys who will pitch for the Twins this year who are getting sent to St Paul with him in a week and he can get his timing back against them. If Cave, Rooker, Astudillo, whoever gets off to a rough start or his swing clicks and he's launching balls all over call him up in a week. But throwing him in when he clearly isn't himself at the plate simply because he's a top prospect isn't how you develop prospects or set them up for success.

30 games, assuming 4 PAs per game (rough estimate that balances out batting order spot, high scoring games, and low scoring games), 4 positions is 480 PAs. Kepler, Cave, Rooker, Sano, Cruz, Kirilloff would be the guys rotating those spots with Kirilloff in and Astudillo out. That's 6 guys for 480 PAs. 80 PAs a piece if you split it equally. Sano, Cruz, and Kepler are key parts of the Twins plans this year and there's no way they're getting the same number of PAs as everyone else in that split so those 3 getting at least 100 PAs (for the record using 2019 stats Cruz would get 130+ PAs in 30 games so 100 is low for those 3) means there's 180 PAs for Kirilloff, Cave, and Rooker to split. That's 60 PAs a piece. Why have those 3 getting 60 PAs a piece when you could have Kirilloff in St Paul getting as many cuts as he needs each and every day (yes, I know it's not game situations, but still facing live BP and in the cage every single day) and getting his timing down while not wasting him on the end of the bench in Minneapolis? And I don't think there's any rules prohibiting him from swinging by Target Field when the team is in town, or having coaches go over to CHS Field, to be in touch with everyone. No sense in starting his clock (I don't think that's why they sent him down, but it's certainly a nice bonus) to have him sit on the bench a whole bunch when he could be getting much more work done without accumulating service time.

Lin, Maggi, and Sabato were late inning replacements who got 1 AB. Sabato has been a late inning replacement the vast majority of the spring and doesn't even get to step to the plate in most games. Lin, Riddle, Maggi, and Romine are new to the org and they are still working on assessing what they can bring in 2021 while not really caring about their overall development as they basically are what they are. Kirilloff is still developing (despite what some on here would like to believe) and sitting on the bench for 7 innings before playing 1 inning in left and crossing his fingers for an AB isn't useful in his development. Spending time in the cages and on back fields with coaches and vets and getting his swing and timing back is what helps his development. We can't judge every player by the same standards in spring. They're at different points in their careers and the org is looking at different things from all of them. Kirilloff, Rooker, and Garlic were on the 40 man coming into the spring. Lin, Riddle, Maggi, Romine, Sabato were non-roster invites who the Twins have no real plans to use in Minneapolis this year unless a number of injuries happen or they go nuclear in AAA (Sabato won't be in AAA and is just getting his feet wet at major league camp to set him up for a better start to his career after last year being wiped out) while somebody in Minneapolis completely craters. They're completely different situations. Whether you agree or not Bux, Kep, and Cave had 26 man spots locked up. Sano, Donaldson, Cruz, Arraez, Polanco, Garver, Jeffers, and Simmons had 26 man spots locked up. That's 11 guys for 12 or 13 spots depending on how many arms they carry early. That means Kirilloff, Rooker, Garlic, Astudillo, Gordon, Blankenhorn, and Celestino were fighting for 1 or 2 spots (with different likelihoods of getting a spot coming in). Rooker, Garlic, and Astudillo have vastly out performed Kirilloff to this point. And I'm not just talking box score stats. I'm talking watching them go about their business in the batter's box. Those 3 look comfortable and like they have a plan. Kirilloff looked awful. Flailing at pitches like he had no idea what was coming at him. He has stuff to work out before he steps foot on a major league field. Kirilloff lost the spring battle, has things to work on, and the Twins sent him to the back fields to work on them. That's how it works.

Who's the more talented player today? Rooker. Have you watched the games? It's not even about his numbers in spring, it's about the ABs he's had. Rooker looks comfortable and locked in. Kirilloff looks to still be trying to find his rhythm, timing, and swing. And that article is arguing against service time manipulation being the reason for keeping him down. Nobody on this thread seems to be arguing that. We're straight up arguing that at this point in time Rooker looks to be the player who will give you the better chance to win Major League baseball games in April. Kirilloff can stay in FL or go to St Paul and continue to fine tune his swing. When he's got it locked in make a move to get him to Minneapolis. Maybe that's by April 8th for the home opener (no manipulation), maybe it's June 8th after he's had a bunch of AAA ABs for the Saints. You're arguing he should be up because he's going to be a better player. Today he is not the better player. If you had to have 1 guy take an AB to win a game right now Kirilloff would not be the choice over Rooker. Maybe his swing clicks today and this is all moot cuz he rips up spring training for the next week. But he shouldn't be on the opening day roster if they all keep putting up the ABs they are for the next week and you're trying to win as many games as possible in April.

Him being a Boras client ruled out an extension when he was putting up MVP numbers. You're dramatically overestimating the team/player relationship stuff. Pro athletes have a different view on this stuff than we do. Now you can be the Rockies and just have no idea what you're doing and treat your best player awfully, but simply not having Kirilloff on the opening day roster with his track record and this spring's performance is not going to ruin that relationship. The players aren't in contact with the front office constantly. They let their agents deal with them and see them in passing here and there. It's not like the relationship they have with the manager.

Buxton insurance is always needed. Be interesting to see what they do with Broxton not being on the 40 man and him probably wanting to get a shot in the bigs on another team if he can.

Nope, I'm not. You responded to a post saying he hasn't produced above A+ by saying that person must have missed his time in AA. I pointed out that he has, in fact, not produced above A+. You're crossing your fingers and suggesting he should start because he's ranked highly on prospect boards in an attempt to counter other's arguments that he hasn't produced and earned that spot above other players who have done more at higher levels. None of us are arguing that he doesn't have a brighter future than Rooker, Garlic, et al. We're arguing he shouldn't be on the opening day roster after looking lost at the plate more ABs than not this spring, having missed an entire season (hitting against the same pitchers for a year in St Paul isn't the same as playing a season, sorry), and having a .756 OPS in AA simply because he's Alex Kirilloff and he's a top prospect. He has done nothing to earn it beyond dominating A ball 3 years ago.

Hanging onto him isn't a bad idea for some extra insurance, but him dominating minor league pitchers in spring training this year shouldn't make us forget he turns 31 in May and has a career .209 BA in the bigs. Short term Bux insurance if Celestino isn't ready, but if the season comes down to Broxton playing 100 games in CF I'm not excited.

He said hasn't produced above A+. Which is true. Unless you think a .756 OPS in AA is something demanding of a promotion to the majors.

Kris Bryant would absolutely sign with Chicago at the end of the year if they offer him the best deal. Not to mention comparing the 2 situations is pretty off base. Kris Bryant had an OPS over 1.000 at AAA the season before he had his service time manipulated, not a canceled season coming off a .756 OPS in AA. And Kris Bryant hit over .400 and lead spring training in homers the year they kept him down for 2 weeks. Bryant is the most outlandish example of service time manipulation you can come up with so comparing him to a guy who hasn't even dominated AA seems to be the wrong route to take. And after the Cubs screwing him over he'd still sign there. The problem is the Cubs don't want to pay him so him and Boras will hit the market and take the money from somewhere else.